freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2020-04-28

DocScrutinizer05any spambot attacks recently?00:02
DonkeyHoteijust not here00:03
DocScrutinizer05that's why I ask00:04
DocScrutinizer05seems sigyn deals with those trolls adequately00:05
DocScrutinizer05if donnager fails to do same in #*-dev, just ping me00:06
crhyloveIf I do all this:
crhyloveCan we get dolphin-emu in the official repos?00:10
TwistedFatewell this is disturbing00:10
TwistedFatei keep getting these network disconnections, i cant ping or open web pages, but certain things still work, like irc or dota 2 O.o00:11
crhyloveAnybody here done a github to gitlab clone before?00:13
plasma41crhylove: dolphin-emu is already in the Devuan repository starting with 3.0 Beowulf00:15
crhyloveOH!  duh.  OK then.  Yay!00:15
crhyloveIs it locked to an older version, or.... ?00:15
plasma41It's version 5.0. I don't know if that's the latest version or not.00:16
crhyloveplasma41, Yeah, that's 4 years old.  There's been a TON of improvement since then.00:17
crhyloveThe devs say use the beta versions.00:19
plasma41dolphin-emu is a package inherited from Debian. If you want a newer version in Devuan, the thing to do would be to get a newer version in Debian.00:20
crhyloveYikes.  OK.00:20
crhylovecert for is broken (wrong common name)00:23
gnarfacecrhylove: it's a dns round-robin, and not all of the hosts in the round-robin support https properly00:26
gnarfacecrhylove: (many of them are also mirrors for other distros)00:27
crhyloveGotcha.  Thanks.00:28
crhyloveWhere's the "apt-get" repo for dolphin-emu currently?00:32
crhyloveI'm working with the devs, they might be willing to do the heavy lifting!00:32
crhylovegnarface, ? :)00:33
gnarfacei'm not sure what you're asking00:33
gnarfacedolphin is in the repo00:33
crhyloveRight, but I'm trying to update the repo to a version that's not 4 years old.00:34
gnarfaceoh, are you using ascii?00:34
crhylove<booto> crhylove: when I ask about source, I meant accessible via 'apt' (e.g. apt-get source dolphin-emu)00:34
crhyloveI'm currently at work on a Windows machine.  Sadly.  It's a slow day.  Happily.00:35
gnarfaceoh i see00:35
plasma41crhylove: see
gnarfaceseems as though version 5.0 is the only version in debian00:36
gnarfaceunless the -6 on the ceres one matters...00:37
crhyloveCorrect.  Debian is pointed at 5 years ago.  LOL00:38
gnarfacethere is a way to import an updated source tarball into a old src package then rebuild it00:49
gnarfacesometimes it works in a semi-automated fashion without patching stuff..00:49
crhylovegnarface, Go on....00:50
gnarfacedebhelper something01:00
gnarfacei think01:01
gnarfacenot sure, but look into the debhelper tools01:01
gnarfacehmmm, no i'm wrong, crhylove, it's uupdate;
crhyloveSo this could update our repos?01:05
gnarfacein theory01:06
gnarfaceif the part in the grey box works without any other hand changes to the code then you're golden01:07
gnarfaceit's sorta a litmus test in code quality01:07
crhyloveI'm not even sure how to do this.  But I'm interested.01:07
gnarfacedid you say you're on windows?01:08
gnarfacefirst thing to do would be to get a live image01:08
gnarfaceput it on a usb key (or optical disk if you feel old school)01:08
gnarfaceand start booting things with it01:08
crhyloveI can do that stuff at home (on Linux, etc.) probably not at work. :/01:09
gnarfacea live image won't install anything unless you ask it to, it's more for testing and recovery01:10
gnarfaceit doesn't touch the harddrive by default01:10
gnarfaceso you might get away with it at work01:10
onefangA locked down work computer might not let you boot strange things though.01:11
crhyloveI could probably do a live image in vbox.01:11
gnarfaceoh, good idea01:11
gnarfaceit would be sufficient to test something like the packaging01:12
crhylove*IF* I could find a portable vbox, the one I used in the past seems broken.01:12
gnarfaceis there qemu?01:12
gnarfaceno there wouldn't be, nevermind01:12
crhylovehmmmm  I'll look for a diff portable virtualization package.01:12
gnarfacedoes vbox rely on systemd?01:12
crhyloveBut vbox should be the best...01:13
gnarfacei think you might just need to change something or patch something to get it to work01:13
gnarfaceor maybe that's the one where you had to use the wheezy version or the devuan version01:13
gnarfacecheck the forums01:13
gnarfaceit has to have come up01:13
gnarfaceor hang around here01:14
gnarfacebest to do both01:14
TwistedFateanyone here knows bind9 dns?01:15
TwistedFatemy broke a couple of days ago, 'named' fails to start :/01:15
crhyloveFound this:
TwistedFateok looks like apparmor broke bind9, works now after making a change in /etc/apparmor.d/usr.sbin.named01:42
ullet_TwistedFate: i'd like a multi-dns-getter that pops up a notification when IPs mismatch02:22
TwistedFateullet_: oh, what's a multi-dns-getter?02:24
ullet_something that queries multiple dns servers when resolving the name for the system02:25
ullet_it's a simple idea of mine02:25
TwistedFatehmm, well depending on the number of dns servers, wouldn't that introduce slow responsiveness?02:26
ullet_you'd be limited to speed of the slowest response02:26
ullet_unless you set a timeout02:26
ullet_but you could issue the queries in parallel02:27
TwistedFateah, due to security or just accuracy-wise?02:29
ullet_security and curiosity02:29
ullet_i've seen a few sites with dns problems and it'd be interesting to see whether it's a propagation issue02:30
MinceRi suppose you could also mix up the official ICANN system with some more freedom-respecting02:33
MinceRs/me /mething /02:33
ullet_there's all kinds of dns client thingies but my idea is simple02:34
TwistedFatewow, my connection is flaky today :/02:36
DocScrutinizer05homeoffice rushhour02:37
TwistedFatei hate when i can't know for sure if it's my ISP or my equipment, i really do gotta make my own router these days02:38
DocScrutinizer05mtr helps02:39
DocScrutinizer05aka mytraceroute iirc02:39
TwistedFateah mtr, yes, useful thingy02:39
TwistedFatewhat??! why is this running on my machine? Apr 28 02:40:10 devuan dbus-daemon[1897]: [system] Activating service name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' requested by ':1.35' (uid=0 pid=7527 comm="/usr/bin/gdbus call --system --dest org.freedeskto") (using servicehelper)02:41
TwistedFateApr 28 02:40:10 devuan PackageKit: daemon start02:41
TwistedFateApr 28 02:40:10 devuan dbus-daemon[1897]: [system] Successfully activated service 'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'02:41
TwistedFatei just ran apt update02:41
DocScrutinizer05freedesktop *sigh*02:46
DocScrutinizer05the root of all evil02:46
onefangYou don't want to know what I think fdo stands for, it's quite rude.02:48
TwistedFatehmm i'm running mtr now, i do seem to have packet loss02:50
TwistedFateand it shows at my default gateway.. that means there's a packet loss between my computer and my router?02:51
ejrwhat might be the reason that there is no wpa_supplicant command on my fresh minimal devuan install even though the package wpasupplicant is installed?13:27
ejrnvm, it was because path wasnt set13:32
alexusPlease, can anyone tell me if a qemu image is available for beowulf?13:55
xrogaanHaven't heard of any. Shouldn't it be trivial to create?13:57
alexus<xrogaan>: yes... it was just to use a ready one and skip that step...14:10
xrogaanif there is not one available on
xrogaanthen there isn't one.14:12
xrogaanIt'll probably be made available once beowulf releases out of beta14:12
alexus<xrogaan>: ok thanks14:13
fsmithredI think jaromil was going to make some virtual images, but he's stuck in Italy now.14:55
xrogaanbest hopes for him15:01
xrogaanjaromil: how are you doing btw?15:01
fsmithredhaven't heard from him in a couple weeks. I hope everyone is ok there.15:17
GyrosGeierI usually install with the normal installer in qemu15:20
fsmithredme too. Or with the live installer, which takes only 10 minutes.15:20
GyrosGeierso I just create an empty harddisk image of sensible size, and make an image from that15:21
fsmithredyou get what you want that way15:21
TwistedFatedoes devuan plan to  completely remove poetterware and freedesktop cancer or just systemd?15:22
GyrosGeiernot sure about plans15:22
GyrosGeierbut in general, I'd prefer not having dbus15:23
* ullet feeds Geier some wiener w├╝rstchen15:23
GyrosGeierpulseaudio would be fine IMO, if it weren't dependent on dbus15:23
MinceRif it didn't exist15:23
GyrosGeierthe design of pulse is okay15:23
ulleti haven't found a good reason for dbus to exist15:24
MinceRits purpose is to circumvent copyleft, but in a poorly designed and poorly implemented manner :>15:24
MinceRs/cop/strong cop/15:25
GyrosGeierthe design is basically COM, without the binary compatibility parts that make COM fast15:25
fsmithredthere are no plans to remove all freedesktop stuff at this time.15:25
fsmithredgoal is to provide debian without systemd, as it's been since the beginning15:26
GyrosGeierand with runtime registration only15:26
fsmithredit is possible to run without dbus.15:26
GyrosGeiersystemd basically replaces the registry in that schema, by taking static registration and turning it into runtime registration15:26
GyrosGeierthis is mostly a manpower issue15:28
fsmithredwhat is?15:28
bgstack15regarding qemu, I use libvirt+qemu and have a preseed file and a one-liner for standing up a devuan VM in 40 minutes in a full, automated install.15:28
bgstack15I can share deets if anyone cares.15:28
GyrosGeierhow much crap we can remove15:28
MinceRdoes COM involve a daemon that's designed so that you're supposed to reboot if you need to restart the daemon?15:28
TwistedFatewhat's COM?15:29
MinceRsome microsoft crap15:29
GyrosGeierMinceR, COM uses the registry, and programs look up stuff individually most of the time15:29
TwistedFatewait, what? do we havev COM on gnu+linux? on devuan?15:29
MinceRsounds like dbugs is not "basically COM" :>15:29
GyrosGeierit does the same thing15:30
MinceRthere are many different ways to do IPC15:30
MinceReven to do RPC :>15:30
GyrosGeiertrue, but you need an object broker15:30
ulletsockets and we liked it15:30
GyrosGeieryes, with sockets you use the file system as an object broker :)15:31
GyrosGeiernobody really used that though15:31
ullethunt did!15:31
GyrosGeierexcept maybe gpg15:31
MinceRi thought many programs use sockets :>15:31
GyrosGeiertrue, but rather few of them use named unix sockets as contact points15:32
gnarfacei suspect that's more common than you think15:32
GyrosGeierSun built portmapper so people could ask "what port is the service X running on?"15:32
GyrosGeierwhich initially had the same "reboot needed" issues as dbus does now, but they added a "reexec yourself and pass the registration state in the environment" function15:33
GyrosGeierI expect dbus to get the same feature eventually15:33
GyrosGeieryou can still break Sun RPC badly by restarting the portmapper externally instead of telling it to restart itself15:34
TwistedFatehuh, can't remove dbus15:34
TwistedFatestuff complains about it15:34
fsmithredTwistedFate, it's easier if you start without it and add stuff.15:38
fsmithredor you could try a no-dbus live-iso:
TwistedFatei can't remove this thing at all15:39
TwistedFateafter adding a couple of deps to be removed, it now wants to remove a whole bunch15:40
fsmithredalso helps if you install stuff without Recommends15:40
TwistedFate^ that's what it wants to remove :/15:43
MinceRi doubt dbugs will get any major new features, considering that they first tried to "just throw it in the kernel" as kdbus and now they're writing bus115:44
MinceRyou can't restart a service without rebooting if that service is part of the kernel => problem solved15:44
GyrosGeieralso I have no idea why they're not just (ab)using netlink15:45
GyrosGeierI mean, that's kind of what netlink is supposed to do15:46
GyrosGeierI'm not sufficiently bored to make a reference implementation15:46
TwistedFatei also have a *lot* of held back packages, can seomeone please help? :315:54
TwistedFate < these15:55
bgstack15that is same link as before, just the "these will be REMOVED"15:56
fsmithredTwistedFate, when was the last time you did update/upgrade?16:25
TwistedFatefsmithred: today16:28
fsmithredyou getting that output when you try to remove dbus?16:29
TwistedFatefsmithred: no, that's when i try to upgrade my system, this is what i get when i try to remove dbus along a couple of other deps
fsmithredWTF!!!  firefox-esr does not need pulseaudio...16:29
fsmithredexcept when it does16:30
fsmithredyeah, I saw that one. Don't try to remove dbus. Better to build up without it.16:30
fsmithredwhy does my firefox-esr need apulse to get sound? It works fine after a reboot, but then dies at some point.16:31
fsmithredrestart desktop didn't help. I'm going to reboot. brb.16:31
fsmithredTwistedFate, did you install your desktop when you installed the system, or did you do minimal install and add stuff later?16:38
TwistedFatefsmithred: did expert install then installed the desktop16:39
fsmithredso you're stuck with a lot of automatically installed stuff16:40
fsmithredyou could try apt-get remove dbus16:40
fsmithredand don't do autoremove16:40
fsmithredand then apt-get install a few key packages from the autoremove list16:40
fsmithredbut that will probably be a pain in the ass16:41
masonYanking out dbus will result in lots of breakage. Even in an environment like Gentoo stuff just implicitly depends on it. Shouldn't, but does.16:41
gnarfacei would just let it remove everything, then put back what i want manually (with --no-install-recommends)16:41
gnarfacelearn the lesson NOT to take the pre-selected desktop configuration if you're smart enough to have opinions about it16:42
fsmithredeither that or start over again on a new partition16:43
gnarfaceyea, also an option.  in some cases that would be faster but TwistedFate has a decent connection16:43
masonThe issue is that dbus is baked into packages. You need to actually rebuild things to do this cleanly.16:43
fsmithredI was surprised at how many packages I could install without dbus16:43
gnarfaceyea i think you can pull it off if you don't care about graphical logins16:44
fsmithredsome conveniences are missing16:44
masongnarface: Graphical stuff is probably the biggest population that quietly uses it, yeah.16:44
fsmithredno wicd or other network manager16:44
gnarfacefirefox and thunderbird wouldn't be able to find each other automatically.  clicking on a mailto: link would require you making an explicit choice.  (shrug)16:44
fsmithredthat never works for me anyway16:45
gnarfaceSteam requires it even though it makes it crash16:45
gnarfaceit's also unclear if Steam really makes any better use of it than firefox16:46
TwistedFateas long as my steam/games work, i'll be fine without dbus16:46
ulleti'll just go ahead and assume the steam client requires dbus16:47
TwistedFatebut this is such a pain, having to remove all that stuff and then re-install everything16:47
TwistedFateullet: i don't think it does, i installed steam on my second machine and i don't think i have dbus there, i'll have to check16:48
TwistedFatewhy is dependency hell still a problem in this day and age?16:49
fsmithredthe installer is set up so that selecting a small number of metapackages gives you a large number of installed packages16:50
fsmithredbe 1337 and start small, then add what you want without all the metapackages16:50
slvrdebootstrap your desktop!16:51
TwistedFatehow can i know what's a meta package and what's not?16:52
fsmithredaptitude show <package>16:52
TwistedFatewell, shit, steam does depend on dbus after all16:52
TwistedFateequery d dbus16:53
TwistedFate * These packages depend on dbus:16:53
TwistedFatethat's among other things, there's alos xorg-server, firefox 75..16:54
TwistedFatei'm shocked16:54
fsmithredfirefox-esr will run without it16:56
Guest78969About dbus... QasMixer doesn't depend on it21:37
Guest78969and concerning to network-managers, most of them depend strongly on dbus: network-manager, wicd, connman21:38
slvrwicd works fine21:39
Guest78969i tested simple-netaid-cdk under void linux by suggestion of steve litt21:39
slvrdoesn't need much to reimplement though21:39
Guest78969*wicd works fine*, mmmh...21:39
slvrwriting wifi configs isn't hard either21:39
slvrif you want to just use it unmanaged21:40
fsmithreddoes simple-netaid need dbus?21:40
Guest78969if you give a try to void linux, you'll find dbus installed but disabled21:40
Guest78969because void linux uses runit21:40
Guest78969fsmithred: simple-netaid works without dbus21:41
fsmithredcool. I should add it to my nodbus build21:41
Guest78969this week i'll publish the first releases of gnuinos21:41
Guest78969gnuinos jessie, including simple-netaid-cdk21:42
fsmithredfirst beowulf?21:42
Guest78969a server edition, without Xorg21:42
Guest78969yes, jessie21:42
fsmithredbetter get her out before june21:42
Guest78969and shortly ascii too21:43
fsmithredyou have simple-netaid packages somewhere?21:46
Guest78969yes, for jessie:
fsmithrednone for beowulf yet?21:48
Guest78969i have the sources for beowulf21:49
fsmithredon git? I could try building it.21:49
Guest78969i'll give you a link to the packages tomorrow, today i've been working on the kernel of gnuinos beowulf21:50
fsmithredok, thanks21:50
Guest78969simple-netaid worked under void linux21:54
fsmithredgot it, thanks!21:54
Guest78969fsmithred: i'll be here tomorrow, i don't work this week21:56
tmbergWhat is Devuan's equivalent of: deb unstable main contrib22:21
tmbergAnd: deb sid main non-free contrib22:22
tmberg ?22:38
tmberggnarface: You mean Ceres?22:48
gnarfacetmberg: no, i mean ceres.  i don't know if it's case-insensitive.  i haven't tried.22:50
tmberg ?22:52
gnarfacetmberg: it'll work but don't do that.  those lines are partially redundant and even upstream advises against using "unstable" instead of the release codename22:55
gnarfacetmberg: also, the country-code subdomain names are deprecated and should all point to the same place anyway22:55
gnarfacetmberg: use the example i gave you literally22:56
tmberggnarface: Ok. So..
gnarfacetmberg: yes, either of those will work.  you only need one or the other23:11
ebisuI want to install Wine 5.X staging from , but I cannot do so because of naming conventions regarding beowulf vs buster. Is there any way i can achieve this?23:22
tmberggnarface: Thanks!23:24
gnarfaceebisu: it works if you'23:27
gnarfaceebisu: it works if you're careful*23:27
gnarfacetmberg: no problem23:28
gnarfaceebisu: (comment out the devuan lines)23:28
gnarfaceebisu: (you might have to get some the dependencies manually, but they should mostly overlap with the native wine package's dependencies)23:29

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