freenode/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2020-05-06

tuxd3vullet, no I use devuan edev100:05
ulletthere are notes somewhere i can follow for a VIM3 image?00:06
tuxd3vits my builder :)00:06
ulletohh00:06
ulletif i were bitcoin rich i'd send you a vim3 to build devuan imgs for00:06
tuxd3vVIM3 is not yet supported, I could add support for it, let me check the board00:06
tuxd3v:)00:06
ulletif you make a vim3 i will do good works for others00:07
tuxd3vyeah it has the powerfull 311D :)00:07
ulletlogging into protonmail is 10x quicker on VIM3 than on jetson nano, tuxd3v00:13
ulletit generates some kind of session key upon login, which takes ages00:13
ulletand building on it is.. idk. but way faster.00:14
masonAnyone using fail2ban? I'm not seeing it set up iptables at start, on Beowulf.04:14
* ullet ponders devuan on Khadas VIM312:32
ulletwhen panfrost drivers are available, and opengl-es.  and wayland, and wayfire12:32
ulletit will be the bees knees!12:32
blebdoes devuan have to build its own version of firefox?14:23
blebcan't use debian's?14:23
ulletdoes it?14:25
blebi was asking because there is only firefox-esr14:26
ulleti don't know the reason sorry14:27
ulleti dislike several decisions by mozilla, so i use Pale Moon14:27
ulletand even in that, i disable many things before compiling14:29
bleblike what?14:32
ulletpretty big list.  video, audio...14:38
gnarfacebleb: that copy of firefox-esr is the Debian one, and apparently currently the only Debian one unless you're running unstable15:58
gnarfacebleb: (no, i don't know why, but last time it had something to do with Rust and Google's stupidity)15:59
Wonkaso, pdns-recursor 4.3.0-2 does not have /etc/init.d/pdns-recursor anymore, there's only /lib/systemd/system/pdns-recursor.service and /lib/systemd/system/pdns-recursor@.service18:31
Wonkapdns-recursor 4.1.11-1+b10 still has /etc/init.d/pdns-recursor, and it's co-authored by one "Christoph Haas <haas@debian.org>".18:32
Wonkaneither is /etc/default/pdns-recursor still there18:46
mcrafter upgrade to Beowolf, my desktop's /etc/ssl/certs (maybe) is broken in such a way that my fetchmail no longer trusts mail servers.18:50
mcranother run of update-ca-certificates might have solved this. "aptitude reinstall ca-certificates" did not itself solve it.18:54
rtn0hi all19:28
rtn0what is devuan? is it based upon Debian?19:29
slvryes, with some differences19:29
fsmithred  yes, it is mostly debian19:29
fsmithredwe fork the packages that require systemd and remove that dependency19:30
rtn0oh that's good.19:30
fsmithredand we merge our little repository of forked packages with the debian repository, minus the ones that need you-know-what19:30
rtn0okay. i value my privacy, which is why i want to rid myself of systemd19:31
fsmithredbetter get rid of your web browser and your phone, too19:32
rtn0fsmithred: im aware.19:32
rtn0fsmithred: but no, I'm not  doing that.19:32
rtn0how do you guys feel about lennart? am i allowed to speak his name here?19:32
fsmithredbetter place to discuss non-support stuff is #debianfork19:33
rtn0 fsmithred ok.19:33
fsmithredthanks19:33
rtn0well my main purpose of ridding myself of systemd is: it's lennart ware. (which is mostly cr4pware/violate-your-pr1v4sea-ware/etc).19:34
rtn0which is the reason why i asked.19:35
* rtn0 goes to #debian=fork19:35
* rtn0 goes to #debianfork19:35
slvrdevaun is fast, stable, and predictable.19:38
slvrgooood stuff.19:38
telst4rI found the /usr/sbin weirdness very puzzling. Like, after "su" I had to /usr/sbin/command for simple things like ifconfig :( the same seems to be in debian 10. What have I missed?19:49
slvrsu is broken now19:50
slvrI think you need su -u to import the environment19:51
Guest81544_abc_ that's because Zoom has ties to the CCP19:56
rtn0fuck you guys.19:56
crashoverridesome people...20:04
crashoverridewhat happened on #debianfork?20:04
sixwheeledbeastlasted 3 minutes20:04
crashoverridethat's what she said.20:04
crashoverridebut really, what happened on there?20:05
onefangWhat happens in #debianfork, stays in #debianfork.20:05
MinceRlol20:05
crashoverrideyou mean I need to lurk on ONE other chan already to just get one private joke or two a year?20:05
crashoverridecome on new20:05
crashoverrides/ew/ow/20:05
crashoverrideanyway, any idea how to configure different TTYs on different monitors?20:08
crashoverridemaybe with different resolution too20:08
sixwheeledbeastall the fun happens on #debianfork your missing out, we have cake20:09
crashoverridethe cake is a lie.20:10
crashoverridealso, my missing out is fine, thank you very much.20:11
telst4rare you suggesting there is fun outside #debianfork?20:16
sixwheeledbeastbut really, there's cake over here ;)20:16
sixwheeledbeastnever20:16
fsmithredNo cake. https://www.dyne.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Devuan_Conference2019-img002.jpg20:18
slvrcrashoverride: that sounds like something getty handles20:24
slvrhopefully that is a useful clue. I've only used messed with serial terms not vga consoles.20:25
crashoverrideslvr: thanks20:31
Guest81544gnarface, are you sure DocScrutinizer05 runs the logs? I don't know why, but he is being extremely rude to me in chat like I've done something to him21:16
Guest81544also gnarface the shutdown, it's related to elogind21:17
Guest81544sometimes the session manager hangs21:17
Guest81544and nothing can be done ounce it gets into an unstable state or "busy state" as it calls it21:17
DocScrutinizer05I'm not extremely rude, I just explained to you there are more than ONE log of IRC out there in the internet21:21
DocScrutinizer05and we don't censor generally21:21
Guest81544it is rude when you start out the conversation with unprovoked hostility21:34
DocScrutinizer05"please run a sed job to eliminate from all logs all lines containing <keyword>" - GOSH!21:35
DocScrutinizer05then "why would checking the results take more than a 30 minutes???"21:36
Guest81544the devuan logs21:38
DocScrutinizer05hint: who tells me tomorrow I won't face next request asking for "why the heck did you remove MY lines from thoselogs??? Please restore them!"21:38
Guest81544and in some countries, there is something called the right to be forgotten21:38
DocScrutinizer05and we don't censor generally21:39
Guest81544i'm not asking to remove someone else's messages21:39
Guest81544I'm asking for my own, which is not censorship.21:39
Guest81544and yes I can prove i own those lines21:41
Guest81544What I am asking is perfectly reasonable21:43
golinuxpoor snowflake.   please take it to #debianfork21:43
masonGuest81544: It's not wholly clear how the right to be forgotten would work with something akin to a public venue, and it typically just applies to private information. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten21:46
slvrHas anyone else noticed installer problems with beowulf?21:46
slvrAfter the 'select software to install' screen I got a failure on two different amd64 machines. It worked on retry both times.21:47
DocScrutinizer05>>[6 May 2020 21:29:21] <Guest81544> sure, but if removing some lines from web content takes hours and checking multiple files, maybe there's something fundamentally wrong with your design<< was last line prior to /ignore21:48
masonDocScrutinizer05: Yeah, I'd *plonk* there too probably. Ah, well.21:48
DocScrutinizer05guess what the links in http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ point to21:48
DocScrutinizer05hint: more than ONE file21:49
slvroh neat, I can see myself on an internet web site21:49
DocScrutinizer05and *I* am rude? yeah, I'm a grumpy old fart, always been21:51
Guest81544your forgetting the buildup to that one DocScrutinizer0521:56
Guest81544the provocation21:56
slvrI'd be happy to forget this whole thing personally21:57
masonPlease take this bickering elsewhere. We only bicker about Devuan in here.21:59
WonkaDocScrutinizer05 was born as a grumpy old fart.22:01
golinuxslvr: A provocation only triggers a response in a deluded mind22:01
golinuxWhat mason said.  Take it to #debianfork22:02
Wonkaso. bickering about Devuan, specifically the pdns-recursor package contained in Devuan unstable: it's got no init script no more, but only shitstemd unit files.22:03
masonWonka: That'd be worth a bug report.22:03
slvrI can whine about the installer more. :p22:03
slvrOr I'd be more happy to get some pointers on how to dig in and discover what the underlying problem is, maybe take a stab at fixing it.22:04
masonWonka: FWIW, https://www.freshports.org/dns/powerdns-recursor/ suggests that probably systemd is not central to the package.22:04
slvrI can see how systemd-resolved using locahost:53 might affect pdns if there is any config defaults that are aware22:04
Wonkamason: I acquired a pdns-recursor init script from an older package. That one had commentary in it that suggested someone with an @debian.org email address had co-authored it.22:08
Wonkamason: using that script, pdns-recursor starts and works just fine22:09
Wonkaperused reportbug...22:11
DocScrutinizer05one last comment (to fight the "I'm an ignorant rude old fart"): I did a check with the two keywords they gave me: $keyword1 matches on 10 lines from 3 users in 7 files, $keyword2 matches on ~200 lines from 4 users in 6 files. Now am I supposed to verify with 7 users that they agree on censoring those over 200 lines of which none directly contains *any* privacy related info?22:32
DocScrutinizer05won't happen, please don't send any further similar request my direction, thanks!22:34
Guest81544no just the ones from my nick22:54
golinuxGuest81544: Please just stop adding more lines that you don't want here22:56
gnarfaceGuest81544: note, for clarification, that i'm not golinux23:07
* gnarface doesn't actually work here23:08
golinuxbut we are friends23:11
openbsdtai123will devuan on rpi3b be faster than raspbian buster, because raspbian buster is actually running very slow. eg. slow kodi.23:12
gnarfacegolinux: that's true but i've had my own problems with DocScrutinizer05 in the past, and i don't want to take sides on this matter23:12
golinuxWe all have . . .23:13
tuxd3vopenbsdtai123, for sure it will, try it and say something about :)23:13
openbsdtai123ok, I like the "for sure". I will try on weekend, root / will be running from scandisk pen.23:13
golinuxgnarface: to #debianfork23:14
openbsdtai123tuxd3v: actually, do you think that slackware can be faster than devuan for rpi3b?23:24
slvrnot materially23:25
tuxd3vI don't know about slackware, it is a stripped down os23:25
slvrnot stripped down at all23:26
slvrit was just never bloated in the first place23:26
tuxd3veverything will come to the compilation of the kernel and userspace23:26
slvrslack runs great on arm, but it might miss out on some functions you want. I ran it on an arm chromebook.23:27
tuxd3vdevuan is more lean than debian, has has no systemd, so it will consume less memory and be faster23:27
tuxd3vby definition23:27
tuxd3vI can compare for instance raspbian vs devuan23:27
tuxd3vdevuan uses about 17MB Ram, while raspbian uses around 35 MB23:28
tuxd3vin a could boot23:28
slvrinteresting23:28
tuxd3vslvr, its not interesting its facts23:28
slvrthose aren't exclusive at all23:29
tuxd3vI already have done a image for RPI1, armel23:29
slvrarmel is kinda terrible though23:29
tuxd3vNow, is will then depend on toolchains and level of optimizations, abart from the init system and so..23:29
tuxd3varmel, as a beautifully code density, I can't say the same about armv723:30
tuxd3v17MB23:30
tuxd3vamazing..23:30
slvrbut, no floating point23:31
tuxd3vnow, on rockpro64, I just created a image for it, and I type things and they just hapen...23:31
tuxd3vIn debian they take a delay to hapen23:31
tuxd3vthe feeling is that devuan is indeed more responsive23:32
tuxd3vslvr, well, there are floating point operations in armel, *but* bot in all devices23:32
tuxd3varmel represents all archs till armv6( included )23:33
slvryeah, but it doesn't support hardware fpu ops23:33
tuxd3vfor instance RaspberryPi 1 has a vfp223:33
tuxd3vyes it does23:33
tuxd3vlike I said vfp223:33
tuxd3vis the maximum vector floating point revision present in armel23:33
tuxd3vfp3 is already included in armhf23:34
tuxd3vand RaspberriPi1 has a vfp2 unit23:34
openbsdtai123svlr I moved a partition from ubuntu to slackware - I see the NET clear difference. This was to put lilo and I kept slackware, no doubts.23:34
slvrhuh. did this change after wheezy?23:34
tuxd3vofcourse you can compile code without support for it, and yes vfp2 is not so powerfull as fp3, but its there :)23:35
slvrI ran the same jessie bins on a pi with fpu and a chumby without.23:35
tuxd3vDevuan image has a armhf kernel compiled for it ;)23:35
Guest81544Which mean page can tell me more about the uid field in passwd(5)?23:35
Guest81544the man page for passwd(5) is leaving out information like what the recommended uid ranges are for various things23:36
openbsdtai123How long may it take to compile the linux kernel 4. or 5 on rpi3b? several hours?23:36
slvrwhy would there be recommentations?23:36
openbsdtai123(degvuan)23:36
slvrit should only take half an hour or so23:37
slvrmaybe an hour23:37
openbsdtai123quite good actually23:37
slvrget that -j dialed in23:37
slvralso keep some cooling on it23:37
gnarfaceGuest81544: i think there's a debian wiki page for it, but basically the short version is > 1000 is for users23:38
Guest81544gnarface, I know there's a bit more to it, and I thought it was >500023:38
Guest81544so i'm trying to find authoritative documentation on it23:38
gnarfaceGuest81544: if you use the "adduser" instead of the "useradd" tool, it knows what to do when you pass "--system"23:39
Guest81544I know but I'm making my own user management tools23:39
Guest81544the interact with the passwd and group files directly23:39
gnarfaceGuest81544: found it https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html23:40
gnarfaceGuest81544: er uh, more specifically: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#users-and-groups23:40
tuxd3vyeah on debian, and now also on other OSes normal users starts at 100023:41
tuxd3vservice users go till 1000 excluded23:41
Guest81544gnarface, fantastic thanks. this is exactly what i needed23:41
tuxd3vofcourse its configured..23:41
gnarfaceGuest81544: just in case, here's the standard system groups and what you're supposed to use them for: https://wiki.debian.org/SystemGroups23:41
Guest81544gnarface, this is why I love Devuan/Debian. clear architectural vision and documentation. not just piecing things together as you go along23:43
WalexGuest81544: that's a bit overoptimistic :-)23:52
Guest81544well23:53
Guest81544maybe not debian in recent times23:53
Guest81544last 5 years or so23:53
Walexalso some of  the architectural decisions are not entirely popular with everybody, like autostarting all daemons when installed or upgraded :-)23:54
Guest81544really?23:55
Guest81544huh23:55
Guest81544wouldn't that be out of scope of a package manageR?23:55
Walexcast in stone in Debian policy...23:55
Guest81544at least within a major release right?23:56
Walexbut despite all that, there is still some search for coherence in Debian/Devuan, despite the nefarious conspiracy by FreeDesktop.org to mess things up.23:57

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