libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2020-06-03

some_alexis there any intention to ship linux-libre kernel?00:38
fsmithredsome_alex, not at this time. Possibly in the future - it's an idea, not yet a plan.00:39
fsmithredgnuinos is a devuan respin that uses libre kernel00:39
some_alextheir website is almost dead and not even English :(00:42
some_alexfsmithred: any thoughts on the earlier question on initrd config?00:44
fsmithredI'm not entirely clear on how it decides which modules to include00:46
fsmithredgnuinos is alive, I'm sure.00:46
fsmithredyou can also add libre kernel yourself. Pretty sure someone wrote it up on the forum.00:47
some_alexwell I checked the website and all I see is a few buttons in a language I don't know00:47
some_alexyes there's a script to deblob the sources recorded by the wayback machine (the original website is down at the moment) and I'll try to use it, but I prefer using distro packages whenever possible. The only program I have not from the repositories is Tor Browser which I run in a sandbox because of this. I'm also planning to create LXC containers to separate development far from my user evironment00:50
fsmithredhttps://gnuinos.org/Beowulf/00:52
fsmithredDescargas for Downloads00:52
fsmithredhttps://gnuinos.org/Ascii/00:53
some_alexfsmithred: sorry for not making it clear, but I don't trust distros with almost empty website. The less info I have on something, the less I can trust it. They don't even have a signature file. Did I mention that I either read or sandbox every single script that I have to run including any plugin to any program whatsoever? :)00:59
some_alexsay, what would it take to add another kernel package to devuan?00:59
fsmithreda maintainer00:59
fsmithredand not a one-shot deal01:00
some_alexwhat are common tasks for maintainers?01:00
fsmithredpackaging, keeping up with the changes in the package so it's available in the next release01:01
fsmithreddoesn't someone package a libre kernel that works on debian?01:02
some_alexyou mean precompiled?01:05
fsmithredyeah, a deb package01:05
fsmithredthe debian kernel hasn't been deblobbed enough?01:07
ebisuHow do I disable the network check on boot? I'm using network manager and I dont like having to mach ctrl+c every boot01:10
some_alexfsmithred: an email from 2009 on debian-devel-announce mailing list indicates that it was decided in December 2008 to introduce the blobs01:11
some_alexa debian package indeed exists on the same website that hosts the code for the deblob script, the site is up now01:12
some_alexebisu: I'm having the same issue :(01:12
some_alexusing OpenRC here01:13
ebisuim using sysvinit01:13
some_alexthe network check is annoying and shouldn't even be there in the first place. Since when is network required to boot the system?01:13
ebisui mean, systemd does the same thing to me on the real debian01:15
some_alexebisu: there's an init script called network or something like that. I was thinking of putting it into a different runlevel or changing the dependencies in some init scripts, haven't figured this out yet01:15
some_alexebisu: hey, I came here to not think about systemd! xD01:16
ebisulol01:16
fsmithredan easy way to turn services on/off in different runlevels is with sysv-rc-conf01:18
fsmithredotherwise user update-rc.d01:18
ebisuwhich service am i looking for?01:18
fsmithrednetworking01:18
fsmithredI guess you want to turn it off in S01:19
some_alexfsmithred: so my guess to put it on another runlevel is the correct solution?01:20
fsmithredis boot hanging while waiting for a connection?01:20
ebisuyes01:20
ebisuuntil it times out01:20
ebisui have network on boot cuz netowrkmanager01:20
some_alexwhy is it even in sysinit runlevel in the first place?01:20
ebisudunno01:20
ebisui installed sysv-rc-conf and i cant find it anywhere01:21
fsmithredsometimes just changing 'allow hotplug' to 'auto' do it (if you have configured /etc/network/interfaces)01:21
ebisuthat worked!01:22
ebisuthanks a bundle01:22
fsmithredot01:22
fsmithredoops01:22
fsmithredit's a common problem01:23
fsmithredebisu, what couldn't you find?01:25
fsmithredsysv-rc-conf the command, or networking inside that utility?01:25
ebisuformer01:25
fsmithredyou must be root, and...01:25
ebisui was01:26
fsmithredthey changed the way root works01:26
fsmithredsu does not give you root's path01:26
ebisuohhh01:26
ebisuthat explains a lot01:26
fsmithredso use the full path to the command or use 'su -'01:26
fsmithredif you like to start graphical apps as root from the user's desktop, you have to do other things now01:26
fsmithred...or if you like to get root's path and stay in the current directory01:27
fsmithredif you're using network manager and you configured /etc/network/interfaces, they might fight with each other01:35
some_alexfsmithred: do you know why devuan uses a special file in /etc to determine its current release? The same info can be fetched from /etc/os-release, why create another distro-specific file?01:41
saciozMany thanks to all of you for the stable version , Devuan devs , contributors and supporters.01:51
fsmithredsome_alex, probably because debian does the same01:56
some_alexfsmithred: oh I see, didn't know this02:10
fsmithredthere's /etc/os-release, /etc/issue and /etc/debian-version and /etc/devuan-version02:13
fsmithredand if you choose, you can add /etc/lsb-release02:14
some_alextoo much files that do the same :(02:24
frabbitis it a realistics conception, that minti could take part in devuan beside sysvinit and openrc? - https://www.fefe.de/minit/04:33
frabbit*minit04:33
gnarfaceif someone is willing to put the work into it and it's not designed to strategically/logistically block out other "competing" software, then sure04:36
gnarface(if they even see themselves as a "competing" project though that's probably a red flag)04:36
frabbitgnarface: what do u mean with competing?04:37
frabbitlike systemd-Poettering talks about init systems?04:37
frabbitgnarface: hes not competing i can guarantee. and he hates systemd. ;)04:51
frabbithmm i have devuan_beowulf_3.0.0_amd64-desktop.iso on a usb here. i started it from libreboots grub, as i started 2.1 when i wnated to go to the expert installer. but heres no guided partitoning...05:46
frabbitguided lvm encrpytion bla05:47
frabbithas it been removed?05:47
frabbitor do i need different paramerts for the kernel now to boot into expert installer?05:53
frabbitalso i cant choose ext3 or 4 or lvm or encryption here if i do the partitioning manually...05:56
frabbitah my fault, i forgot to select tools...07:15
frabbitprobably it is know but in grub.cfg is written Debian GNU/Linux instead of Devuan GNU/Linux08:04
plasma41some_alex: While linux-libre is not in the Devuan repositories, jxself of the FSF runs an apt repository for linux-libre. I personally have been using his repo for my kernel for several years now. Details for added the repo can be found at https://jxself.org/linux-libre/08:51
plasma41s/added/adding/08:52
frabbitplasma41: u dont need that the debian kernel is free09:00
frabbitive used jx kernel repo before too, but than a discussion here figured out that i dont need it09:01
frabbit_plasma41: u dont need that the debian kernel is free/msg NickServ REGAIN frabbit09:08
frabbit_whoops09:08
frabbit_^_^'09:08
frabbitplasma41: ah now i found that u said u using this repo because of newer kernel versions that contains features u want09:09
frabbitbtw. the only reqason devuan and debian are not in the list of recommended gnu distros is the fact, that one can add contrib and non-free right?09:10
frabbit*reason09:10
gnarfacethe only complaint is about non-free, i believe09:29
gnarfacebut there might be some complaints about firmware in the kernel too09:30
gnarface(not sure)09:30
frabbitgnarface: but i thought the debian kernel has only free software09:31
frabbitisnt that even written in debian guidelines somethin?09:31
* frabbit looks for that document...09:31
frabbitgot a place to ask 4: #debian-kernel09:34
frabbitlol only 1 bot in there xD09:35
gnarfacewell it only has free software, but it has some binary blobs09:36
gnarfacesome people take offense to that09:36
gnarfacebut the GNU people might even take offense to the kernel just supporting the non-free ones, even if when they're not there in the distro09:37
frabbitgnarface: but thats the upstream kernel only, im pretty sure that ive red that debian removes that blobs too, just as linux-libre09:38
gnarfaceDebian is pretty strict compared to most distros about that type of stuff, but the GNU people are more extreme09:38
frabbitextrem...09:39
frabbitwrong word09:39
frabbitwould be the best to have a free kernel and if someone needs blobs or non-free stuff this person can just add it for her or himself and done09:40
frabbitdevuan use the same kernel as debian? or is there systemd stuff in it too already?09:40
gnarfaceno, for now devuan is using the same x86 kernels as debian09:41
frabbitok09:41
frabbitill ask at #debian09:42
systemdlete2sound stops after a while, for some unknown reason, in ascii VM.11:39
frabbitit seems that my dvd drive doesnt except empty dvds anymore...11:55
frabbitwodim say no medium found when i try to burn devuan iso11:55
frabbitcan it be that it needs some specific driver?11:56
frabbiti think i remember, that i already had that issue and i think it was first after i librebooted the laptop11:56
frabbiti use the same dvds here that i used in the past12:04
frabbitsame vendor, size etc.12:04
fsmithredfrabbit, did you get a definitive answer about blobs in the kernel?12:58
frabbitfsmithred: no =(13:05
frabbitbut i needed to reboot my computer some time after i asked tghe question so maybe there was on (channel has no log as it seems)13:06
fsmithredwhat I recall, and what I could find now suggests that the only difference between the debian and libre kernels is that libre won't let you install any non-free13:06
frabbitdamn i was in the wrong channel after reboot!13:07
frabbitfsmithred: nah i dont think that true. im pretty sure that ive installed som ugly stuff for mp3 once with that channel, but i can not guarantee 100%13:08
fsmithredmp3 is free now, isn't it?13:08
frabbitdunno but that was long agao13:09
frabbit*ago13:09
fsmithredI think they de-blobbled around squeeze or wheezy13:09
fsmithredthey=debian13:10
frabbitok13:11
* frabbit needs to rage against telefonica in #debianfork13:17
* frabbit reads devuan log site13:19
frabbitok i have set up a fresh minimal beowulf install here, encrypted disk except /boot. i have installed apt-transport-https, ca-certificates and openssl from the pool dir on the installation usb via dpkg -i14:02
frabbitbut when i run deborphan it lists apt-transport-https and cryptsetup!14:03
frabbitive setup the encryption, lvm and partitioning manually with the installer btw.14:04
Xelraafrabbit do u have problem with the shutdowns btw?14:05
Xelraalike cryptdisk busy busy busy14:05
fsmithredfrabbit, when I run deborphan it lists iptraf, which I installed deliberately14:05
Xelraathen after a wait it probably forceumounts it uncleanly14:06
Xelraaeven tho the original debian had the same issues14:06
fsmithredI think with debian, you don't see the error messages14:07
frabbitXelraa: -> shutdown -> yes but that is default since years, it already was in debian14:07
frabbitfsmithred: yeah the took makeup over it ;)14:08
frabbitbut i didnt had that deborphan thing in ascci...14:08
fsmithredoh, I have it in ascii, too. I don't know what causes it.14:09
frabbitfsmithred: so what did you do? mark it as hold back or something (i think deborphan has such functions)?14:09
frabbitfsmithred: wanted it to remove apt-transport-https too?14:10
fsmithredI don't remove it14:10
frabbitnah...14:10
fsmithredor if I do something like apt-get remove `deborphan`14:11
fsmithredthen I reinstall it14:11
frabbitthats my problem... i use deborphan in a script as: "deborphan | xargs apt-get autoremove --purge -y"14:11
fsmithredI never bothered to try to find the cause14:12
frabbitwith that i killed my first install today morning...14:12
frabbit=(14:12
fsmithredmaybe search, maybe look at the source code14:12
frabbitnah it has options. but heavy: try running deborphan -a14:12
frabbitit lists many packages u may dont want to be removed... weird14:13
frabbit-A or --add-keep should work i guess...14:14
frabbitit creates a balcklist then of packages that will never be reported by deborphan14:14
frabbit*blacklist14:14
frabbitok that works, but where is that list...? o_014:17
fsmithredman page should tell you where it is14:18
frabbithmm so i overread it... but im sleeping here on the keyboard... =/14:21
frabbitgreat seems that ive broke something here14:51
frabbiti mentioned that i hadnt changed on line of the three in sources.list to beowulf in my install script... =(14:51
frabbitso i got deborphan (and man-db) from ascii14:52
frabbitive correct the line and runned apt-get dist-upgrade and it updated these two packages14:52
frabbitbut after i played arround with the deborphan options (i removed the entries on keep list) i can not add packages anymore14:53
frabbiti get "fseek on /var/lib/deborphan/keep Das Argument ist ungültig"14:53
frabbit"Das Argument ist ungültig" is german and means that the argument isnt valid14:54
frabbitfsmithred: can u maybe try to reproduce that: add a package to the list, remove it and add it again?14:56
fsmithredfrabbit, I'm about to leave for the day. Remind me later, please.14:58
frabbit=( ok14:58
fsmithred6-8 hours14:58
frabbitbut probably i will do the install again14:58
frabbitfsmithred: nah i will sleep then14:58
fsmithredgood idea14:59
frabbitim awake since 13 hours14:59
fsmithredhave good dreams14:59
frabbitthx =)14:59
frabbitit is a bug: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=92927315:18
frabbitits in Version 1.7.31 and thats the version that comes with beowulf15:18
frabbitno backports.. hm15:31
frabbiti go sleep now15:31
frabbitand dream of software that suck less xD15:32
XelraaSLiM is an acronym for Simple Login Manager. Lightweight and easily configurable, SLiM requires minimal dependencies, and none from the GNOME or KDE desktop environments. It therefore contributes towards a lightweight system for users that also like to use lightweight desktops such as Xfce, Openbox, and Fluxbox.15:56
Xelraawhich is funny that Devuan uses a deprecated login manager15:56
Xelraabut it works tm15:57
crashoverrideit's not so funny15:57
crashoverrideall this is happening because all the other software are bloated to high heavens15:57
crashoverrideand this is only deprecated because unmaintained...15:57
crashoverride=/15:57
crashoverridethe state FOSS is in, really.15:57
Xelraatoo bad that the fluxbox package is also only 1.3.5 not the latest 1.3.7 even that is more than 2 years old as I remmber15:57
xrogaanthat's debian16:01
xrogaansame with xfce16:02
MinceR"simple", "Lightweight", "minimal dependencies" but depends on logind? :>16:06
MinceRthey keep using those words. i do not think they mean what they think they mean.16:06
zatumilyes, devuan embraces minimalism and shuns bloat https://www.theregister.com/2020/06/03/devuan_beowulf_30/16:12
xrogaanelogind removes quite a lot of problems actually16:17
xrogaanI don't understand why. Maybe consolekit is just too indigest.16:18
masonxrogaan: The thing is, elogind is logind is systemd.16:27
MinceRindeed16:34
FlibberTGibbethow do I deal with this please?16:47
FlibberTGibbetE: Repository 'http://deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf InRelease' changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing' to 'stable'16:47
FlibberTGibbetN: This must be accepted explicitly before updates for this repository can be applied. See apt-secure(8) manpage for details.16:47
FlibberTGibbeti'm not much the wiser for the apt-secure man pages :)16:47
tomtasticrun apt get manually, say 'Yes'16:48
FlibberTGibbetaha!16:48
FlibberTGibbetthanks tomtastic16:50
robin_Hi guys ! :)17:02
robin_Is anybody here available for some few questions ? :D17:02
tomtasticOnly 250 users here, so I say just ask, dont ask to ask.17:03
robin_Okey sorry17:03
robin_i have tried to read abit about it but couldnt find any clear solution17:03
robin_Just installed 3.017:03
robin_But pulse-audio dont work, i guess i need to enable the service or is it something else ? : )17:04
robin_Because i cant find any documentations on how to disable / or enable in sysvinit17:05
robin_either17:05
masonrobin_: look at /etc/pulse/client.conf.d/00-disable-autospawn.conf17:05
robin_autospawn=017:06
masonHm, I haven't tried 0 there. "no" definitely works.17:10
robin_i mean i have sound17:11
robin_but its not possible to edit the volume17:11
robin_with the plugin icon on xfce17:11
masonOr, opposite. Sorry. Distracted by work stuff. You want to comment out the line. Should look like: https://bpa.st/CH6Q17:12
robin_Establsihing connection to pulseaudio is all i get17:12
masonrobin_: Check to see if your user's in the audio group.17:12
masonBeyond that, unsure. I mostly try not to use PulseAudio.17:13
robin_ fgrep -ie 'audio' /etc/group17:14
robin_audio:x:29:pulse,robin17:14
masonWhen I get a chance I'll look at my daughter's box to see if we had to do anything special. She runs pulseaudio and xfce on Beowulf.17:15
robin_ao okey :D17:15
robin_cool man17:15
robin_its working fine now :)17:19
robin_anyway, how do you enable / disable service in sysvinit? :)17:19
djphrobin_: check /etc/rc#.d/17:20
masonupdate-rc.d17:37
masonbut he's gone17:37
nemoanyone successfully setup lightdm to launch two X sessions on vt7 and vt8?20:49
nemoI'm kinda banging my head against a wall on this one20:49
nemofound examples online but none seem to work20:49
plasma41nemo: two X sessions? May I ask what you are trying to accomplish?20:52
fsmithrednemo, why do you need to use lightdm to start the second session?21:04
nemofsmithred: I don't, it's just more convenient than switching to a vt and typing startx -- :1 & exit21:04
fsmithredstartx -- :1 won't do it for you?21:04
fsmithredthen it's just ctrl-alt-f7, ctrl-alt-f8 to switch21:05
fsmithredwhat's the & exit for?21:05
nemofsmithred: to leave it closed21:05
nemothe vt21:05
nemofsmithred: otherwise sometimes forget to log out of it on exit.21:05
fsmithredh21:05
fsmithredoh21:05
nemofsmithred: ideally would be back at the second lightdm screen21:05
nemoand just log in again later21:05
nemoit's tidier21:05
nemoand seems like something that *should* work just by specifying [Seat:0] [Seat:1]21:06
nemobuuuut can't seem to get it to use them21:06
fsmithredI think I know a way to do this if I can remember it21:06
fsmithredgdmflexserver21:09
nemooh. back to gdm?21:09
fsmithredor21:09
fsmithred...21:10
fsmithredwtf is it called?21:10
_abc_fyi https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2020/06/03/devuan_beowulf_30/ mentined, also MX linux, another systemd less (not enabled) distro21:10
fsmithreddm-tool21:11
fsmithredmaybe21:11
fsmithrednemo, try this one: https://askubuntu.com/q/41682521:12
nemohmmm21:12
nemothat seems a bit clunky compared to ctrl-alt-f7 but will dig into it21:13
nemomaybe can add shortcuts or something21:13
fsmithredI think you switch from the exit menu - Switch user21:16
amesserFor me this works when typing in a console on tty7 "dm-tool switch-to-greeter"22:08
amesserjust plain beowulf lightmconfig without any changes22:08
amesserhmm, seems that lightdm just jumps back to the existing session without opening a new one. I think it was made to behave like that.22:38
amesserI come to the conclusion that it is not supposed to work out with lightdm at all: In *logind notation, a standardpc has one "seat", namely "seat0". In principle you can start multiple sessions on that "seat0" but lightdm won't let you create another session of the same user.22:46
crashoverridesystemd should be called "license2linux"22:51
crashoverrideit's literally made for redhat to become the new microsoft.22:53
golinuxSomeone in the comments at https://www.theregister.com/2020/06/03/devuan_beowulf_30/ said:23:03
golinux"It seems to be a better implementation of the excellent Windows NT service interface!"23:03
fsmithredI'm smiling at that title23:09
masonWindows NT took a lot of its technology from VMS, so that wouldn't be so bad.23:23
MinceRyeah, VMS is almost as bad as Backdoors NT23:52
justinsmI saw the beowulf announcement posted on dng and devuan-dev, but did somebody forget devuan-announce?23:54
kingsley__Congratulations on releasing version 3 of Devuan. If it would be convenient, comfortable, and all those good things, I'd be happy to receive your informed update. I'm interested in software complexity and the apparent contradiction between the instabilities I perceive in systemd, vs its wide adoption, as well as that of another big project, the linux kernel.23:57
golinuxjustinsm: AFAIK, only jaromil has the ability to do that and the service lines are being upgraded.23:59

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