freenode/#devuan/ Friday, 2020-06-19

stiltrYou can look at any potential debian vim patches here: https://salsa.debian.org/vim-team/vim00:03
search_sociali'm happy to report that devuan worked on a bsd hypervisor00:09
openbsdtai123I tested it - the issue of utf-8, on the slackware, same issue with less/vi... and now00:18
openbsdtai123I just tested it under FreeBSD and it works perfectly. It seems that FreeBSD has better support for UTF-8 text files.00:18
gnarfacehmmm00:27
gnarfaceit's probably not a problem with cat, it's probably vi00:27
gnarfaceunless it's expected behavior00:27
gnarfaceyea, can't reproduce it here00:33
gnarfacenot on ceres anyway... stand by00:34
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: i'm gonna have to call it user error.  cannot reproduce on ascii or ceres.00:35
gnarfacenot even using vi00:35
gnarfacemaybe something you grabbed from a 3rd party repo is doing it00:36
gnarfaceor maybe your environment is munged00:36
gnarfacewhat does the output of "locale" say?00:36
openbsdtai123well, it works here under FreeBSD,. the issue is much larger than expected.00:37
tuxd3vopenbsdtai123, what do you mean?00:37
openbsdtai123If Slackware does similar thing with UTF-8, I tend now to think about kernel for the console/terminal.00:38
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: well there's a limited set of libraries that could be the wrong version, and a even more limited set of relevant environment variables, it's gotta be something weird you did to one of them not part of the stock install process00:38
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: maybe something you didn't notice, like some 3rd party libraries sneaking in when you thought you were only getting ONE package from that ubuntu ppa...00:39
openbsdtai123I am kinda sure that if I try on netbsd it may work. Maybe BSD has another concept for handling the UTF-8.00:39
gnarfacei'm sure they have all their own libraries00:39
openbsdtai123that's crap for Linux a bit...00:39
gnarfacebut that's kinda not relevant to the point00:39
gnarfacethe question is more about what you did to YOUR install00:39
openbsdtai123If your text gets mess up, this is a big thing actually.00:40
gnarfaceyes, i get that.  but i also get that sometimes you like to make a big thing of nothing00:40
openbsdtai123Regular I know well Linux - I am 25 years old experienced user.00:40
gnarfaceyou're a child00:40
djphgnarface: how old does one have to be in order to "not" be a child?00:41
gnarfacenow stop trying to bolster your street cred and just answer my questions00:41
openbsdtai123dpkg-rec. to set utf. like it should be.00:41
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: can you just paste the output of the locale command like i asked?  use paste.debian.net00:41
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: it's a sanity check00:42
openbsdtai123I use C UTF-8... 2 secs...00:42
gnarfaceah00:42
gnarfacethat could be the issue right there00:42
openbsdtai123here my devuan locale: https://termbin.com/ivml00:42
gnarfaceyou get a D- for obedience, and i'm not clicking that00:43
openbsdtai123I will try a bit more.00:43
gnarfacedjph: age doesn't seem to be the only factor00:44
djphgnarface: good point.00:44
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: here, here's what it should look like: http://paste.debian.net/1152763/00:44
openbsdtai123actually utf-8 is not a so easy thing00:44
djphgnarface: mine says 'C' :/00:45
gnarfacedjph: yea but i'm assuming you're not actually expecting nor have taken steps to support utf800:45
gnarfacei'm pretty sure the default is still latin100:45
djphgnarface: I've actively taken steps to avoid it00:46
djphwas en-us.utf8 as I recall00:46
gnarfacehmm, maybe they changed the default finally, most of my installs are upgrades or debootstrap installs00:46
gnarfaceyou used to have to change it explicitly from iso-8859-100:47
gnarfacethen there was actually a debacle about it not having "C" as an option, i recall that some windows user was making a big stink about it causing compatibility issues unless he hit 2 more keystrokes which he felt was unacceptable00:48
gnarfacethen i think they actually buckled and changed that00:48
gnarfacenot sure though00:48
gnarfacethe important takeaway is that depending on how you installed you can't always trust it to default to en_US.utf800:49
djphsuppose00:50
djphI know just enough about codepages to make a mess of things :)00:50
djphif I never have to deal with EBCDIC again, it'll be too soon :|00:51
gnarfacewell things were definitely simpler before utf8 and it is a tripping point for a lot of people, but it's also something i've had to deal with professionally and i've set it up dozens of times without any of these types of complications00:52
djphyeah, I mean on my daily driver, it's utf8; but most of my servers and the play-boxes are C00:53
djphthey just don't need utf800:53
gnarfaceanother common problem is people switch to utf8 then purge all the other codepages, forgetting that many programs still expect the system to be able to gracefully fail over to iso8859-100:53
djphI never understood that one ...00:54
gnarfaceit's just laziness00:54
gnarfaceif you don't add support for utf8 you expect the pre-utf8 code to work, and it does unless you purge the other codepages00:54
djphNo, I mean the "go to utf8, then delete everything" ... it's not like it's 1990 and having a x00 MB harddrive is a luxury00:56
gnarfaceoh, i see00:56
gnarfaceif you're writing internationalized websites you need to enable utf8 support in the database, in the shell, in the text editor you're writing the code with, and in the server-side-scripting language's config all at once - all separate settings, easy to miss00:59
gnarfacei see this perpetually plaguing mysql&php sites01:00
gnarfaceso much that it's actually not common knowledge that it even can be made to work01:00
gnarfacebut it's been actually working fine for over a decade if you know where all the settings are hidden01:00
gnarfaceit wouldn't surprise me at all if BSD defaults were better curated and more current for this01:01
gnarfacebut ... i can definitely cat 3 utf8 text files together no problem01:02
gnarfaceso it's absolutely working01:02
djphgnarface: same here (on my utf-8 box)01:46
hemimaniacfound a bit of an oddity in the beowulf installer (net install) it showed me two of the same wifi cards instead of an intel and a realtek https://termbin.com/wqj7 the intel is built in, and the realtek is PCI but the installer shows both as realtek, no biggie, just weird03:18
hemimaniacbut other then that, flawless install03:24
gnarfacehemimaniac: realtek ships a lot of ethernet chips, both wired and wireless.  it wouldn't be unheard-of to have different brands using the same exact driver03:29
gnarfacehemimaniac: actually i'm pretty sure every single ethernet device i have in use still here is a rebranded realtek chip of some era or another except for the one 3com card03:31
gnarface(lots of these companies don't even ship a linux driver)03:32
hemimaniachrmm03:34
nemotuxd3v: poke05:11
crhyloveAnybody know where to delete the VLC settings?05:15
debdogprolly ~/.config/vlc/05:24
gnarfaceit might be ~/.vlc/ or ~/.vlcrc or something like that in older versions05:50
gnarfacei recall it moved to ~/.config/vlc/ relatively recently, and you could have the old one in the old location still being picked up and choked on05:50
crhyloveHmmmm06:08
crhyloveFor whatever reason if I run it as vlc, it runs fine, but the default shortcut /usr/bin/vlc doesn't work.06:09
crhyloveAlso, when I double click a file it doesn't auto open.06:09
crhyloveHowever, the performance I get in OBS makes it well worth it to stick with Devuan, so....  This is low priority.06:10
crhyloveWhere can I config the Open With dialog for video files?06:10
crhylovenm  Fixed it already.  LOL06:11
se7engnarface: it seems that a lot of my issues with the upgrade, including the ones that I still have, are due to deb-multimedia fucking up08:05
humpelstilzchen4I don't have a problem with marillat packages on buster08:09
humpelstilzchen4uhm beowulf08:10
golinuxShould probably avoid deb-multimedia08:17
golinuxIt can cause problems down the line even if it works now08:18
humpelstilzchen4if so it can still be uninstalled at any point in the future08:19
yetioptimist!08:19
yeti:-Þ08:19
golinuxhumpelstilzchen4: You get to keep all the pieces08:41
systemdleteI am seeing, in the kernel log:  "WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 14259 at /build/linux-R68hK ..." (example only!)09:40
systemdleteI am getting these errors on my ascii host, and also my ascii VMs.09:40
systemdleteThey have been showing up frequently in the logwatch reports for about a week now.  It's intermittent and may happen on one or more of the machines in any 24 hour period.09:41
systemdleteI've researched this problem, and some posts seem to indicate they are only informational (warn, not error), and they don't seem to cause faults or crashes.09:42
systemdleteThey also seem to be related to network functions, though I have not delved that deeply into these.  (Sorry, I am sort of lazy)09:42
gnarfacethat's not enough of the error09:43
gnarfacedoes it say soft lockup?09:43
systemdleteSome posts I've come across indicate that the kernel code has been updated later on.  I am running the 4.9.0-12 kernel on all the systems.09:43
gnarfacespurious irq?09:43
systemdletenope, as I said, nothing other than a warning message09:43
gnarfaceit's a multi-line warning, or not?09:44
gnarfacethat's not enough of the error09:44
systemdleteIt seems like, though I am not sure, that this started as I upgraded from the -11 to the -12 kernel09:44
gnarfacethere are newer kernels in backports though, yes09:44
systemdleteit's a one-liner09:44
systemdleteI take some of this back... it's in the VMs, I don't think this happens on the host.09:46
systemdleteI looked at the newer kernels, but I couldn't find one that matched the one I have now.  IOW, there isn't a later vmlinuz-4.9.0-*-amd6409:47
systemdleteit seems I have to pick one of the others, but I wasn't 100% certain which one.09:47
systemdletehttp://paste.debian.net/1152796/09:49
systemdlete for a sample of these messages from one of my VMs (from the kern.log* files)09:49
gnarfaceoh, the watchdog09:50
gnarfacethat's the important part you left out09:50
systemdleteIt cannot be a hardware fault because these are virtualized interface cards09:50
systemdlete(sorry, yes it came from watchdog)09:50
gnarfacesomething in net apparently? you did say that part09:51
systemdlete(look at the path)09:51
systemdletesomething about net scheduler09:51
gnarfacedisable power mangement?09:52
systemdletein a VM?09:52
systemdleteok09:52
systemdleteI think I checked that, but I will double check for you09:52
gnarfaceand there's no network issueS?09:53
gnarfacei wonder if it's just packets timing out...09:53
gnarfacealso wondering if it had been woken up from sleep or hibernate09:53
systemdletepower manager is unchecked in the xfce session/startup dialog09:53
systemdleteagain... in a VM?09:54
gnarfaceon the host too09:54
gnarfaceor is this not your host09:54
gnarface?09:54
systemdleteI suppose it is theoretical09:54
systemdleteit is VM09:54
systemdleteI thought I might have seen these on the host too, but no09:54
systemdletethe host is a midtower with that asus mainboard I was talking about yesterday (re a different issue)09:54
gnarfaceah09:55
gnarfaceit's my only guess09:55
systemdletenot a laptop... though I do have ascii on my laptop too09:55
gnarfaceseems to be a net driver issue of some sort, seems to come up a lot, according to google... too much for me to be able to pin down to one cause09:55
systemdleteI also upgraded from vbox 6.0 to 6.1 recently... that's around the same time as the kernel upgrades09:55
systemdleteyes, that was my assessment also09:56
systemdleteI upgraded vbox thinking it might solve those USB issues, but it turned out to be hardware (the ASMedia chip)09:56
systemdleteso I did not intentionally mean to upgrade *both* vbox and kernels at the same time.09:57
systemdletenormally, I try to avoid that.09:57
gnarfacedoes the next line say something like "NETDEV WATCHDOG: .... transmit queue X timed out09:57
gnarface"09:57
gnarface?09:57
gnarfacein that error log?09:57
systemdletethe crashes because of the USB 3.0 devices was driving me mad, so I tried everything, sadly at once...09:58
systemdletelet me check...09:58
systemdletehttp://paste.debian.net/1152801/ (complete backtrace)10:00
gnarfacesystemdlete: hmm, this might be connection related and not your fault, i think... ?10:01
gnarfacesystemdlete: check your network connections10:01
systemdleteso an upstream host or box is blocking the packet?10:01
systemdletenot willing to accept it?10:01
gnarfacesystemdlete: that's one possibility10:02
systemdleteand that could BE!!!10:02
systemdletelisten!10:02
gnarfacesystemdlete: all that's clear is some packet timed out10:02
systemdleteI recently chose to enable QoS on my Ipfire firewall.10:02
systemdleteI lost close to 50% of my bandwidth by doing so.10:02
gnarfacesystemdlete: it might actually be safe to ignore this if you're not experiencing any other abnormal behavior, but i'm nots ure10:02
gnarfacenot sure*10:03
gnarfacei would expect QoS and high load to result in more network timeouts10:03
systemdleteTheir algorithm is based on minimum bandwidth, not maximum.  So maybe it is limiting upstream throughput because of the imposed maximum?10:03
gnarfacethere is an implied priority order is there not?10:03
systemdleteI get 95 down normally.   With QoS enabled, I am measuring about half that.10:03
systemdleteyes10:03
systemdletebut I feel that their model is... backwards?   They should be building on minimums, not maximums, to avoid wasting bandwidth10:04
gnarfacei don't really use QoS, my experience is also that it sucks.  maybe for a hostile network it has some value but when it's your network and nobody else is using it, it just kinda hobbles you10:04
systemdleteSome services SHOULD be limited at the max side, but not video and audio.  There, I think you want minimum limits10:05
systemdleteI was having Zoom latency, so I thought I'd try QoS.  It didn't help, and actually made me curious as to why they are rate limiting video and audio, of all things one might want to limit.10:05
gnarfacewell the quality of the Quality of Service is highly dependent on the quality of the device itself...10:06
systemdleteSo I got into a conflagration with them over this... *sigh*10:06
systemdlete"device?"10:06
gnarfacethis is in your router, no?10:06
gnarfaceor are you trying some QoS thing in the linux kernel?10:07
systemdleteright.  Virtual router.  About 25% of all Ipfire implementations run in VM10:07
gnarfaceoh i see10:07
systemdleteBut the thing works, and has worked very dependably, for years now.10:07
gnarfacewell if you're in control of all the VMs on the host i don't see why you'd need QoS10:08
systemdleteIt is only the QoS part that is seriously problematic10:08
systemdleteas I said, I was having Zoom latency, so I thought this might help.  I have disabled it most of the time.10:08
systemdleteIt's more of a curiosity now10:08
gnarfaceZoom latency?10:08
systemdleteyeah.10:08
gnarfaceoh, Zoom the video chat client10:08
systemdleteI'd be in a meeting and the audio and video would hang for about 9 seconds10:09
systemdleteand this would happen at intermittent intervals10:09
gnarfaceon your send, you mean?10:09
systemdletein no particular pattern.10:09
gnarfaceor on other people's10:09
systemdlete(thinking)10:09
gnarface?10:09
systemdleteZoom is audio/video conferencing.  So I am not sure which way might have invoked these long pauses10:10
gnarfacewell either way it could be your cpu or your bandwidth10:10
systemdletethere would be no audio, and the video would freeze10:10
gnarfacesee if the cpu is pegged to 100% when it happens10:10
systemdleteactually, what I found out is that it has something to do with the testbox, which I was using for a while for zoom meetings10:10
systemdleteNo, it wasn't.  I had ping running in another window and it was updating10:11
systemdletewell10:11
systemdleteno, when the freezes happened, the ping would freeze also10:11
systemdletebut this doesn't happen on my primary box.10:12
gnarfacewell to be sure, disable cpu frequency governing and don't run other stuff at the same time (especially firefox)10:12
systemdleteAt least, I haven't seen it there.10:12
systemdletegnarface:  Even though I have close to 100Mbps down?10:12
systemdlete(and I think 5 up)10:12
systemdleteand this was before and when I had QoS enabled10:13
systemdleteso the problem must be in the interface, which I have had other problems with on that box10:13
systemdleteI'll stick to using my primary box for the time being.10:13
systemdlete(even though that one has the rotten USB 3.0 chip on it.... oy)10:14
systemdletethanks for your help10:14
systemdleteI am guessing this can be safely ignored (the net scheduler warning from watchdog)10:14
systemdleteI'll leave QoS disabled for a few days and see if these go away.10:15
gnarfacesystemdlete: the hypothesis would be that you're not actually getting 100Mbps in whatever direction that traffic is going at at those moments10:15
gnarfacejust to be clear here10:16
systemdleteright.  Which is why I think I'll leave it disabled for now.10:16
gnarfacebut it might represent a hardware problem with the line or throttling10:16
gnarfaceupstream of you10:16
systemdleteIf I continue to see these messages, then I know that the problem is elsewhere (maybe the new kernel).  Otherwise, I think it is safe to assume that the QoS is the culprit.10:16
gnarfacecould coincide with the zoom video freezes?10:17
systemdleteThen I'd expect the same results when running Zoom on the main box.  The testbox is routed through the main box (which contains the VM router)10:18
systemdletebut zoom doesn't seem to freeze when I run it on the main box10:19
systemdletegnarface:  The two boxes are linked by a direct ethernet connection (not a switch or router).10:21
systemdleteand maybe there is the problem.  Perhaps without a router ruling the traffic, there is some kind of resulting latency or failures10:22
systemdletewithout QoS, btw, I am seeing high bufferbloat.  dslreports gives me a "C" for BufferBloat (but A's for Quality and overall)10:26
I3^RELATIVISMIs there any official devuan image with gnome3?14:22
fsmithredno gnome images, and it's not a choice in tasksel.14:25
fsmithreddo a minimal install and then add what you want when you boot into the new system.14:25
I3^RELATIVISMIm asking this to learn but what would be the problems with gnome and why is not inclined problems with its javascript codebase? Or just a bloat related issue?14:28
fsmithredtoo much dependence on systemd14:31
fsmithredit's not as bad now that elogind exists14:31
xinomilohttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/beowulf/beowulf/task-gnome-desktop_3.54+devuan3.html14:39
xinomilohm, removing elogind, bringing in consolekit in testing/ceres, probably beowulf too, since it's the same version14:40
fsmithredoh, that could be. I've never tried gnome.14:47
xinomilome neither, not since gnome2 :D14:48
eyalrozI'm trying to install context, but package configuration gets stuck at:Pregenerating ConTeXt MarkIV format. This may take some time...17:44
bgstack151reality check: is gcc-10 available in Devuan Ceres yet?22:49
bgstack151And I don't mean, "the package is there." I mean, it won't uninstall 2,715 packages when I try to install it?22:49
crashoverridebgstack151: why should it>22:49
crashoverrides/>/?/22:49
bgstack151Have you tried it?22:50
bgstack151Maybe my box is broken...22:51
bgstack151yep, my one box is broken. My other box can get gcc-10 just  fine.22:51
bgstack151I'll be back later with some probing questions about how to fix it...22:52
crashoverride:D22:55
crashoverrideAt least that's something you can fix.22:56
frabbitit is this unstable connection cuased by my isp that kills my ssh connection, all my config work was correct!23:13
frabbitthe same shit kicks me here so often23:14
crashoverrideyou what now?23:18
frabbitcrashoverride: hm?23:18
DonkeyHoteiuse screen or tmux23:19
crashoverrideDonkeyHotei: you're assuming frabbit has a bouncer.23:19
MinceRand once you use either of those, consider using mosh :>23:19
DonkeyHotei"kills my ssh connection"23:20
frabbitDonkeyHotei: i do that doesnt help23:20
crashoverridemosh's protocol has not been properly audited.23:20
crashoverrideI'd like that before I use it.23:20
frabbitcrashoverride: no audit? sound bad...23:20
frabbitalso i dont want to workarround, i better change isp finally...23:20
frabbitits expensive anyway 30 € a month for 50Mbits dw... thats a joke23:21
frabbitits DSL23:21
frabbiti can have cable internet for 1/3 of that price23:21
crashoverridefrabbit: I get 8mbps for 50 E a month23:21
crashoverridefrabbit: so consider yourself lucky.23:21
frabbitcrashoverride: wtf?!23:21
frabbitwhy?23:22
frabbitwhat isp is that?23:22
crashoverridebecause in Tchermanny, unless you're rich, you will suck rich people's dicks.23:22
crashoverridethat's why.23:22
frabbitTchermanny=germany?23:22
crashoverrideand Telekom is effin rich.23:22
crashoverrideofc.23:22
frabbitim german too23:22
crashoverridewow, then move to Berlin.23:22
crashoverrideYou'll discover the power of paying a lot for shit.23:23
frabbitey u have good freifunk there =P23:23
crashoverridefrabbit: you got Magenta Zuhause L?23:23
frabbitchange to eazy23:23
crashoverridemyeah it's not too bad yes.23:23
frabbithttps://eazy.de/23:23
crashoverridenah I'll leave the country.23:23
frabbitits the discounter niche of unitymedia23:23
crashoverrideI dunno where for23:23
crashoverridebecause everywhere I go seems to suck hard.23:23
crashoverridebut yeah I'm done with Berlin.23:24
crashoverridealso, changing the ISP won't fix it, the copper is still owned by Telekom.23:24
frabbitNot the nice city of BErlin is the problem, politics are the problem23:24
crashoverridenah Berlin is the problem.23:24
frabbitUnitymediy doesnt use copper xD23:24
frabbitthey use docsis23:25
crashoverrideI got such an old copper pair as uplink that I could literally spy on my entire bezirk just with crosstalk.23:25
frabbitGlass fiber23:25
DonkeyHoteito be pedantic, docsis = coax = copper, still23:25
crashoverrideI could get a good 1Gbps uplink, symmetrical, with a GREAT ISP.23:26
frabbitDonkeyHotei: hmm osrry the forget about docsis, unitymedia using the cable network23:26
crashoverrideI only need 2k a month.23:26
frabbithttps://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitymedia#Netz23:27
frabbithmm but as it seems they are not available in berlin... o_023:27
frabbitwtf?! its the capital city!23:27
yetiarm aber sexy :-P23:28
frabbityeti: Berlin? =) yeah true ^_^23:29
frabbiti only was there three times23:29
frabbitbut it was nice23:29
* frabbit waiting for raging golinux, cause all this went oft23:30
* frabbit sneaks to #debianfork23:30
yetijust do the right thing...23:30
frabbityeti: whats that now? google new motto?23:30
crashoverrideyeti: war sexy. In 2000 vllt.23:30
* yeti last was there in the mid90s23:31
crashoverridenow there are too many "antiturkista" graffitis.23:31
yetisamall towns have idiots too23:31
crashoverrideyeah, sure.23:32
crashoverrideI can deal with 10 idiots.23:32
frabbitguys lets go to debianfork23:32
crashoverridein Berlin, we have 10 milions.23:32
crashoverrideAnd yes, I am aware it's more than the amount of people living in Berlin.23:32
yetibut a mesh23:32
yetiwe haven't23:32
crashoverrideBut don't worry, it's accurate.23:32
crashoverridealso the presence of the mesh is greatly exxagerated.23:33
yetiI'd experiment with other meshs if I had interested neighbours...23:34
yetiif...23:34
crashoverridewell, just mass buy rpi zeros23:34
crashoverrideand hack your street lights.23:34

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