freenode/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2020-07-22

fsmithredfurrywolf, ^^^03:43
cloudyhi pkginfo finds netsurf netsurf-gtk and netsurf-fb in ascii and jessie, however nothing returns for any newer branch incl experimental or chimaera, also nothing of the 3 pkgs on bugs.d.o04:46
cloudyis this pkg no longer to be included/maintained rn? strangely lists 4.0 and unstable as having v. 3.1004:47
cloudyis the mistake on repology's end? should i notify them to fix/repair their db/scripts?04:48
cloudyif it's been removed, is there a reason? I see nothing yet...also, its missing from git.d.o05:21
phidouxsteam appears to be broken in beowulf because it can't install libgl1-mesa-dri due to libstdc++6 and liblvm7 dependencies which conflict05:26
phidouxjust ran into this issue on a machine i manage for a family member that uses an nvidia graphics card05:27
golinuxcloudy: That is a question for Debian not Devuan05:42
golinuxDid we fork it at some point?05:42
cloudyi dont think so, but even if unforked, arent the pkgs at least copy pasta'ed to the devuan repos themselves?05:43
cloudyrepology correctly reports versions in devuan 1.0 2.x, and technically in 3.0 too (it sees no versions), but somehow sees versions for 4.0 and unstable05:44
golinuxThe package comes directly from Debian.05:44
cloudyim not running devuan atm (ubuntu-deriv) but perhaps someone can confirm the netsur* pkgs are non-existent even in 4.0 and unstable branch?05:45
golinuxWe don't touch it or make any judgment on it.05:45
cloudyor ill just add those to my sources.list05:45
golinuxNothing after ascii.05:45
gnarfacecloudy: look, they pulled it from Debian too.  it's not us.  we didn't do it.
cloudyi know, i had mentioned that05:46
golinuxIf debian doesn;t have it.  We won;t have it.05:46
cloudyim thinking maybe it was killed and repology hasnt update the missingness yet05:47
gnarfacecloudy: they usually have a good reason, but your only appropriate recourse is to file a bug report at  if you want to take inappropriate recourse, just go into #debian and start a fight.05:47
phidouxok thanks for the info05:47
golinuxYou could try installing the ascii version.05:47
gnarfacephidoux: fundamentally your issue is the same, but they're likely to actually fix your issue on their own without intervention05:48
gnarfacephidoux: (steam was working here in beowulf recently)05:48
phidouxyes i knwo05:48
phidouxi know05:48
gnarfacephidoux: you might have luck using the kernel and mesa from beowulf-backports though.05:48
phidouxwhich is why i mentioned it so hope fully some one knows05:48
gnarfacephidoux: even if you don't need the newer versions, backports may have sidestepped whatever mess they've made currently05:49
cloudydebian has it in bullseye and sid, missing from buster...v strange indeed, ill talk to debian then05:49
phidouxi will have to see what i can work out05:50
phidouxgoing to reboot for now thanks05:50
golinuxcloudy:  If it were in bullseye if would be in our chimaera.05:52
gnarfacegolinux: isn't bullseye still mapped to sid/ceres?05:53
golinuxNo chimaera05:53
gnarfaceoh, i guess that makes sense05:53
golinuxBut I just noticed that it's still listed as unstable in the banned pkg list05:54
golinuxI'll go report that now05:54
golinuxOr not listed actually because unstable is ceres.05:55
cloudyis the banned pkg list public? link?05:58
cloudyi dont know if hyperbola ppl are just wiser or if they're seriously underestimating workloads...06:32
cloudydevuan already has a hard time revoing systemd, and has some experimental nodbus images, hyperbola is trying to remove the above two and a plethora of other packages, including pam, the *kits, xorg and many more...06:33
cloudyand they seem to have fewer devs to do so06:34
cloudyany thoughts on this? are they just insane/overconfident?06:35
golinuxThat speculation is more for #devuan-offtopic than here  ;)06:36
OksanaWhich network manager is recommended for usage in Devuan? I am currently using Wicd with XFCE4 desktop environment.08:29
OksanaI am trying to figure out how to integrate openconnect with wicd. Usually, I manually run openconnect from a terminal, with sudo. If I put openconnect command into wicd postconnect script, do I need to write sudo in the script as well, or not?08:31
OksanaAlso, I usually type in VPN password manually when starting openconnect from terminal. But that can probably be typed in script like
gnarfaceOksana: wicd is the default for a reason, but that reason doesn't sound like it fits your use case anymore08:34
gnarfaceOksana: frankly i think you've grown out of network managers from the sounds of it, but i don't know anything about openconnect08:34
gnarfaceOksana: wicd should be using some permissions backend to get root access so depending on how it calls scripts it might not need sudo but i don't know for sure08:35
cloudyOksana: does your work/org require cisco or pulse to connect? why need openconnect? just curious08:36
OksanaYes, they recommend cisco, I think.08:39
gnarfaceOksana: worst comes to worst, you can likely just ditch wicd entirely and put the commands in your /etc/network/interfaces file directly, tied to an "up" clause08:41
gnarfaceOksana: (they will also be executed with root permission there, but that file is globally readable by default so if it includes your VPN password make sure you "chmod go-a" it08:42
gnarfaceOksana: (it's globally readable by default, but only root actually has to be able to read it so you can safely correct that)08:42
gnarfaceOksana: it might be fully doable with wicd, i don't know.  i had to figure out all this stuff before network managers existed08:43
telmich__good morning10:00
telmich__it seems the website and potentially more is down - I guess it's a known problem?10:00
gnarfacetelmich__: seems fine here.  is it still down for you?10:01
telmich__IPv6 is down, gnarface10:03
telmich__* connect to 2001:41d0:2:1f68::3624:8eb3 port 443 failed: Connection refused10:03
telmich__I assume somebody reconfigured && forgot the listen statement for ipv6 in nginx10:05
gnarfaceoh, that10:09
gnarfaceyea i wouldn't have noticed, i'm still blocking ipv6 traffic here10:09
gnarfacetoo many security risks and no valid use cases10:09
gnarfaceif you are stuck with it i truly pity you10:09
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: hello10:10
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: if you have questions, it's best to just ask them and wait patiently10:11
openbsdtai123so far, no question. how are you gnarface?10:16
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: i'd rather not say10:19
gnarfaceopenbsdtai123: thanks for caring though10:19
openbsdtai123anytime. you are welcome. I need to go, see you later -- have a nice day,.10:26
golinuxtelmich__: Nice to see you here.10:40
golinuxI didn't know the website was configured for IPv610:41
golinuxrrq: ^^^10:41
telmich__gnarface: we are actually running a whole data center ipv6 only - so far relying on Devuan11:55
roo^yI'm a few days into running Beowulf on my Mele pcg35 apo. I haven't updated from stock release, & my screen just went black, & KB won't turn it's lights on for caps lock, num Lock etc12:15
roo^yUnlikely a heat issue, as I sit here in very cold Australia. Other screens & keyboards make no change12:19
openbsdtai123Since everyone seems to use whatsapp, there is no choice. How to run whatsapp  on devuan ?? it seems that there is not much way, not to use it since there is no linux version. Is there maybe a workaround to install it?12:23
roo^yA android emulator (the way ubports uses android apps)12:27
sixwheeledbeastThere is always a choice.12:44
sixwheeledbeastThere is no way i would be pressured into using a platform if I don't like there privacy policy.12:45
roo^yNow Beowulf won't boot past a maron screen. Can go into recovery boot, & allows maintenance from CMD line13:05
gnarfaceroo^y: it's most likely something you installed/upgraded recently then, if the problem persists through reboot... though there are some rare types of driver crashes that can persist through a reboot so do a cold boot once to be thorough13:30
gnarfaceroo^y: the screen going black part also might have been expected behavior (under most default configurations the screen would blank after 306 seconds or something like that) and the crash may have happened afterwards whether or not it was even related13:31
gnarfaceroo^y: that also strongly hints to a driver issue, particularly with the video card or with something related to power management13:32
brocashelmdoes anyone run vrms every now and then out of curiosity? the only "bad" package i got is firmware-amd-graphics, but that's so i could configure my monitors. i guess i'll write angry letters to amd until they release fully libre drivers13:33
roo^yLive version from USB doesn't get past a blue screen with a mouse. I'll see if another OS will boot13:34
gnarfaceroo^y: maybe try the mini.iso one13:36
gnarfaceroo^y: (no gui enabled by default, might dodge the issue you're having if it's gui related)13:36
roo^yUntil now, the live Beowulf did work, which installed it to ssd, & it's been running for a few days13:38
Jorilopenbsdtai123: I just use from inside a browser13:38
gnarfaceroo^y: so, a few days, but did you install anything during that time, particularly towards the end of that time, like in the last couple hours before the screen went black?13:49
gnarfaceroo^y: also, can you ssh into it?13:49
roo^yThat's a bit beyond my n00bness at the moment13:50
gnarfaceroo^y: well, one thing that would be a good test is to have an open ssh connection when it initially locks up, see if you can still maintain control remotely, this narrows down the potential causes and gives you some leverage to deal with the issues13:51
gnarfaceroo^y: based only on what you've told me so far though, i can't rule out hardware failure13:52
gnarfaceroo^y: i'd need to see some more tests, but the initial behavior fits the profile for having burnt out a chunk of video ram13:53
gnarfaceroo^y: but like i said before, if you installed anything within a few hours before it blackscreened initially, that's the most likely culprit13:54
gnarfaceroo^y: it might have been something from a 3rd party repo, if you were distro mixing this could happen too...13:54
roo^yI usually boot refracta ASCII on another partition of SSD. FAIL! Hardware fail it is! Another distro on USB didn't launch either. I happen to have a spare Mele pcg35 apo. I'm doubting the win10 on the onboard chip will boot either, if it's fried a GPU gnarface13:56
gnarfaceroo^y: well, if not much of the video ram is fried, you might get sporadic success13:58
gnarfaceroo^y: i had found some way to map around bad system ram but at the time it wouldn't work on video card ram, but maybe someone has something for that...13:58
roo^yI've been only turning off the screen, so the screensaver may've been FAR too much for the hardware to run for hours13:59
gnarfaceroo^y: and don't forget to try cold boot if you haven't yet.  shut it down all the way, unplug it, unplug the battery (if furnished) and then wait 10 seconds or so before powering it back up again13:59
roo^yYes, I've been turning off the UPS between boots14:00
gnarfaceroo^y: (i've seen a lot of things that look like hardware failure but were just an artifact of bad driver and bios misbehaviors combined with residual memory capacitance)14:01
gnarfaceroo^y: (some of those opengl screensavers are just as likely to cause such a driver crash as they would be to overheat the hardware)14:01
gnarfaceyea, maybe swap the video card then and see if that brings it back to life14:01
gnarfaceand for the future - don't use the opengl screensavers14:01
gnarfacethey're real bad14:01
gnarfacethey are dangerous14:02
gnarfaceto people and hardware alike14:02
roo^yI doubt the video card is external on this mini pc14:02
gnarfacethe guy who wrote them actually rage quit his entire coding career and opened a bar instead, over persistent gpu driver bugs that still to this day plague those screensavers14:03
gnarfacethe old pixel-based ones seem safe though14:03
roo^yI guess I'll be able to run a GPU test from some hirens boot cd if installed to boot partition..14:06
roo^yIf fried, not all lost, if I use as some cli server..14:08
gnarfaceoh, and you said you were sure it's not overheating, but you did check the fans, right?14:09
gnarfacedead fans can cause overheating even in a cold room14:09
gnarfacedepends on the hardware though14:09
gnarfacesome of it is more sensitive than others14:09
roo^yIt's fanless. Cold down in AU. & Wasn't working very hard when it "crashed"14:10
gnarfacewell that's the thing though, you could be onto something about the screensavers if it was a opengl screensaver... it could have been working a lot harder at it than you'd expect14:10
roo^yI was just chatting here in IRC & it went down14:11
gnarface(another complaint about the opengl screensavers is there's no responsible frame limiting)14:11
gnarfaceoh, if the screensaver wasn't even running though that's a different matter14:11
roo^yDefinately didn't show signs of trouble before it died14:12
gnarfacedo you know which cpu frequency scaler you were using?  ondemand?  schedutil?  performance?14:13
roo^yNo, default install14:13
gnarfaceperformance is more prone to causing overheating, but the others can be related to instability issues14:13
gnarfaceif this is using one of the ARM images i don't know what it would be14:14
Oksanagnarface: Thank you. I don't fully understand phrase >> you've grown out of network managers from the sounds of it <<. Does it mean that GUI network managers are kids' playground, and adults have got to use CLI tools? If so, I find it unfair - just like condemning adults to reading books without illustrations.14:14
gnarfacethe default install probably uses ondemand or schedutil14:14
gnarfaceOksana: it's emotionally self-destructive for you to characterize it that way.  characterize it more like "it'll probably take you less time to learn how to edit the very simple text-based format of the /etc/network/interfaces file than it would to figure out how to fix whatever is wrong with wicd"14:16
gnarfaceOksana: that said, i don't use wicd, so you should get a second opinion from someone who does14:16
* Oksana nods14:16
gnarfaceOksana: "man interfaces" for the documentation on that file, by the way.  there's no pictures but it's also not complicated14:16
gnarfaceOksana: if you start editing it directly though, any gui network utility will start to conflict with your changes14:17
OksanaIt is problematic enough that I don't know whether VNC client for Sailfish OS works or not, and there is no RDP client for Sailfish OS at the moment.14:17
gnarfaceOksana: well, i don't know about sailfish either, but there are several choices of vnc clients in the debian/devuan repos14:18
OksanaProblem is, I prefer consistency. Aka, if I am using GUI for anything, then I am using GUI for everything. If I am using Gtk2 widgets, then I don't want to see Gtk3 or Qt anywhere.14:18
gnarfaceOksana: well, i think two network managers are wicd and network-manager14:20
gnarfaceOksana: *i think the only two...14:20
OksanaAnd it doesn't help that computers have a habit of stopping working unpredictably. I suspect that remote computer suffered from power outage - three remote computers are no longer reachable, and that's despite VPN seemingly fine (I run openconnect with -v for verbose, everything seems fine)14:20
OksanaThere is also netctl, but it's probably CLI, not GUI?14:21
gnarfaceOksana: KDE might have a network manager that is unique to KDE that is not the others14:21
gnarfaceOksana: either that or it's just using network-manager too14:21
OksanaAnd unfortunately, remote computers are desktops, aka, no batteries. Which increases probability of file corruption due to power outage.14:21
gnarfaceOksana: file corruption risk should be fairly limited unless these are Windows machines you're talking about14:22
gnarfaceOksana: i really don't know about netctl either.  the /etc/network/interfaces file format is laughably easy.  to the point you might be angry at yourself for avoiding trying it bare.14:23
* Oksana wants a laptop-desktop hybrid: battery yes, compactness yes, display no, keyboard no - battery solely for the purpose of kind shut-down, aka a few minutes, not for hours-long-work14:23
Oksanagnarface: Yes, they are unfortunately Windows14:23
OksanaNot my choice14:23
gnarfaceAPC sells mini UPSes embedded in power splitters, might be worth looking into14:24
gnarfaceit's like a slightly bulky looking surge protector, but it also provides a few minutes of battery for clean shutdown, just like you want14:24
roo^yMy Mele is Intel. Win10 that it came with on its inbuilt 32gb chip still boots without issue14:25
Oksanamini UPSes... Interesting. Not sure that workplace IT will be fine with such devices, but will see.14:25
gnarfacearound here outages are rare but brownouts are common... some sort of battery is essential if you want any type of uptime14:26
gnarfacei even put my tivo on a battery14:28
gnarfaceshit's getting ridiculous14:28
gnarfaceactually, that thing about computers having a strong habit of stopping working unpredictably... i don't find that to be the case for me anymore since i put everything on batteries and disabled power management14:29
gnarfacethe largest culprit for bringing down servers was bios issues related to various power saving features and basic dirty power14:30
OksanaCannot find mini UPS yet? These ones are huge...
gnarfacestand by i'll try to dig up something14:31
OksanaThis one looks interesting, darn expensive though - and if I want workplace to pay for it (doubtful), then I better find something new, not used14:36
gnarfaceOksana: do you see a "Back-UPS 650" anywhere?14:38
gnarfaceOksana: oh, the 8-outlet 550VA is probably in the same line14:39
gnarfaceOksana: yea, you're probably not gonna get something for less than ~$80 unless it's on sale or you make it yourself14:39
gnarfaceOksana: but on the plus side, you can probably safely hook all 3 machines to just one of them as long as all you need is a few minutes to shut down14:40
Oksanagnarface: Unfortunately, two are on one room, and one is in another room. So, two devices would be required, at least.14:40
gnarfaceOksana: APC and some other companies also sell power-conditioning surge protectors that might be sufficient to iron out your dirty power (maybe - ymmv)14:41
OksanaNo idea. I don't expect it's just brownout, though I wouldn't know.14:42
gnarfaceit's pretty obvious here because the lights dim14:42
gnarfacewhen the lights all dim for a second then you hear a bunch of beeps in the computer room, then you know14:42
OksanaDoesn't help that at least two computers out of three will not be able to boot just because somebody pressed a power button. One of them will complain about hard drives inserted and attempt to boot from them, while another will complain that RAID has never been set up.14:43
gnarfaceyuck, bios issues that can't be changed, eh?14:43
OksanaCannot observe lights dim remotely from distance of a few kilometers, unfortunately...14:43
gnarfacemight be worth looking into seeing if libreboot supports those machines if the stock bioses suck that much14:44
gnarfaceoh, i guess i don't actually know if libreboot supports Windows though14:44
gnarfaceas long as it's not a counterfeit... says it's discontinued14:48
ShorTiedoesn't look big enough to me for a battery14:51
gnarfaceit's not, it just has power conditioning14:51
gnarfacethat one isn't a battery back-up14:51
gnarfaceit's just a power conditioning surge suppressor14:52
gnarfacebut if you actually just have brownouts and not actual blackouts (however brief) it might be enough14:52
ShorTiedoesn't look big enough to me for a big cap, lol.14:53
gnarfacethey are usually a lot cheaper because most the cost is the battery14:53
gnarfaceyea honestly i dunno14:53
gnarfacei buy the bigger ones because you can hook more machines to them at once14:53
ShorTieoh so true14:54
roo^yI just watched a 3.5 minute video on my Mele (running win10) to confirm the video hardware is still pretty good gnarface. Perhaps your right about a driver, which won't let it fully boot from the internal SSD or external usb14:55
ShorTiei have most of my electronic things pluged in, 6 apc's here14:55
gnarfaceroo^y: this one is in text mode:
gnarfaceroo^y: it's also possible still there's bad ram but the windows driver just happens to fill from the other end or something, so you wouldn't necessarily notice any problems unless you ran something that used 100% of video ram, with the mini live image you should be able to find out for sure15:00
gnarfaceroo^y: if there's bad video ram you'd eventually see corrupted text, too15:01
gnarfaceroo^y: if the text mode is fine you know it's the driver or the kernel or mesa15:01
brocashelmis it ok to keep beowulf repos after switching to testing?15:02
gnarfacebrocashelm: i would advise against it but it might not matter... why not just comment them out to be safe though?15:02
brocashelmgnarface: some packages i needed weren't on chimaera15:03
brocashelmgnarface: also, i was hoping to upgrade my libc6 to 2.29 for a point upgrade on another package needing that15:03
roo^ygnarface: I spoke too soon *update* My Win10 has gone to a black screen, with a flashing white mouse arrow I can move around15:04
roo^ySorry again (screen woke up from that sleep) it's fine again!15:06
brocashelmah, realized i had it as /devuan chimaera, rather than /merged chimaera (for the /etc/apt/sources.list file). now i'm getting thousands of upgradable packages15:21
gnarfaceah ha!15:31
gnarfaceyea that'll do it15:31
brocashelmi commented the others out lol15:33
brocashelmand i'm doing this on console just to be safe15:33
fsmithredbrocashelm, FTR, I kept ascii repos active when I first upgraded to beowulf, but that was before most forked packages were not ready for beowulf. Chimaera is in better shape right now.15:59
fsmithred^^^ remove the extra negative16:00
brocashelmfsmithred: finished the upgrade process awhile ago and it's working amazingly well17:08
roo^yi had a 'scare' earlier of full-installed Devuan Beowulf going to a black screen, & the usb KB was unresponsive like it was unplugged. The best I could do after that, was boot to a CMD line (w/ the optional recovery boot (if that's what the alternative grub one ending in "..(re.." is))19:41
roo^yThe Beowulf live-desktop wouldn't fully boot either. An experiment of booting Easy OS barely made it past it's boot manager. Refracta ASCII booted to a black screen, where I got distracted & left it for a while.19:41
roo^yIt was then able to boot into Win10 that it came with, on it's internal chip. I powered off & now Beowulf boots again! This time greeting me with the login screen. Hopefully a upgrade of packages will stop this from happening19:42
brocashelmi would say chimaera is already miles better than beowulf20:19
brocashelmand by far the most stable devuan yet20:19
brocashelmi have not had any breaks and did the proper steps to ensure all packages were in check. the kernel is at 5.7 now and even the pointer acceleration is improved20:21
fsmithredI've been using beowulf since the beginning of this year, and it's been very stable for me.20:35
masonSame, although perhaps even longer for a couple boxes.20:36
masonAlright, December. Not much longer. But it's been utterly stable and reliable.20:37
brocashelmbeowulf was what got me to make that switch20:38
fsmithredyeah, I installed at the end of december and took a couple weeks to get it set up before it was my main system.20:38
brocashelmi had problems with ascii and kept getting discouraged20:38
fsmithredI think maybe there are some tricky spots in every release, and if you don't know about them, they are very frustrating20:40
masonThat's for sure.20:40
brocashelmyeah, true20:40
fsmithredI fought with getting synaptic to start from menu in Refracta20:40
fsmithredfor a long time. More than a year20:40
brocashelmi try to stay away from synaptic and gdebi as much as possible20:41
fsmithredme too, but it's gotta be there for other people20:42
brocashelmthe people coming from ubuntu/mint, yeah20:42
fsmithredlol, I came from SuSE so I was used to graphical tools20:42
brocashelmi do use dpkg -i to install deb files, if needed20:43
brocashelmi was on mint for a few years, but i started with ubuntu 9.10 back in the early 2010s20:43
brocashelmdevuan just feels right to me and more stable than ubuntu and its forks, even before the systemDisease20:45
brocashelmis the 66 init still going as planned?20:46
fsmithredhaven't heard anything in a long time20:47
roo^ymy 1st ubuntu may have been 10.10, live on 1GB RAM. Upgraded through to 12.04, & milked that more than a dairy cow!20:50
brocashelmnice. i was hunting down PPAs to keep mint 18.3 going while i looked around to replace it20:53
roo^ynot long after i found ubuntu, i tried live Mint. I opened web tab after web tab, & was entertained of how hard it was to crash ubuntu had been so easy to run out of memory/over-whem the processor, to bite the bullet20:56
fsmithredwe should move to offtopic20:56
fsmithred #devuan-offtopic20:57
fsmithredroo^y, ^^^ join us21:03
yetiyou meant #debianfork!!!! määäääääääään!21:20
roo^yone of the 3 things populated by 'sudo apt-get update && apt-get upgrade' is: Repository ' beowulf InRelease' changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing' to 'stable' This must be accepted explicitly before updates for this repository can be applied. See apt-secure(8) manpage for details. So I find which doesn't teach me anything obvious23:45

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