freenode/#devuan/ Monday, 2020-08-03

CAPTCHA_REQUIREDwhat is this -enable-kvm coming from07:35
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDhasn't it always been -machine accel=kvm07:35
DonkeyHoteiCAPTCHA_REQUIRED: no.08:11
DonkeyHoteiit was always -enable-kvm08:12
DonkeyHoteithe accel thing is recent08:12
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDWhat is devuan desktop environment in the installer?10:23
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDif XFCE is not selected10:23
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDand what do I do if my computer is not BIOS or UEFI10:26
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDbut grub is built into the firmware10:26
openbsdtai123hello, is it possible to stay more Unix and BSD than going madness like debian?10:39
openbsdtai123dmesg shall not be lockdown.10:40
openbsdtai123su shall remain with full power.10:40
openbsdtai123and so on.10:40
JorilCAPTCHA_REQUIRED: I think that XFCE is installed by default even if it's not specifically selected10:51
ham5urgHow do I get the command lvm into initramfs' busybox? I want to boot from LVM but the initramfs can't find the device, so it drop's me into busybox' shell.11:16
fsmithredopenbsdtai123, 'dpkg-reconfigure iputils-ping'11:18
fsmithredecho 'ALWAYS_KEEP_PATH yes' >> /etc/default/su11:19
DPAecho 'sysctl kernel.dmesg_restrict=0' >> /etc/sysctl.d/10-local.conf && sysctl --system11:23
DPAUps, I meant: echo 'kernel.dmesg_restrict = 0' >> /etc/sysctl.d/10-local.conf && sysctl --system11:24
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDhow do I fix random freezeups with beowulf?11:27
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDI'm on a laptop with a samsung SSD11:27
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDover a encrypted LVM11:27
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDI'm copying a file from a usb hard drive to my internal SSD (a tarball) and my system keeps randomly freezing up and the hard disk activity light stays on11:27
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDio elevator is mq_deadline11:28
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDabsolute fresh beowulf install11:28
openbsdtai123fsmithred:  what is it? To make devuan look more like normal unix. is it possible that devuan cry a bit long debian, and go alone without debian? devuan needs to be an adult OS. Now it is time to fix debian ;)11:28
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDnothing but dwm, mc, elogind, dbus, qterminal, running11:28
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDnot seeing anything weird in dmesg11:29
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDoh and tor and getty11:29
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDand rsyslogd11:29
fsmithredopenbsdtai123, no it's not possible for us to separate from debian. Unless maybe you have a few hunderd devs ready to join and help.11:29
openbsdtai123why not? if you stick  to look like debian, it looks ugly.11:30
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDwhat do you mean look like debian openbsdtai12311:30
brocashelmdevuan is actually my first time using debian (past a live boot), lolz11:32
brocashelmi can see why debian is highly preferred as a base11:32
fsmithredyeah, sorry. Not awake yet, so I don't know the difference between dmesg and ping.11:33
fsmithredopenbsdtai123, there's about a dozen active devuan devs.11:33
fsmithredwe strive to do as little as possible11:34
fsmithreddevuan desktop is prettier than debian. Debian has always been butt-ugly.11:35
brocashelmespecially refracta desktop IMO11:35
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDidk about that11:36
brocashelmlove the outer space wallpaper11:36
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDother than GNOME3 is absolute hot garbage11:36
fsmithredoh, that's a persistent reaction to the spacefun theme11:36
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDso is adwaita11:36
fsmithredwhich you probably missed if you weren't using debian11:37
brocashelmyeah, i never used debian, aside from trying out lmde3 very briefly11:37
CAPTCHA_REQUIREDright now just using dwm on the lappy and fluxbox on the workstation11:37
brocashelmbut it still looks pretty good to me11:37
fsmithredDPA, thanks for that. I was looking for that recently and couldn't find it.11:40
openbsdtai123I have copied the packages deb onto my /target. How to unpack them --foreign onto /target with a foreign arch?  ar x or something?  I have a rpi3b and I want to deploy the deb files onto my pendrive x86.16:13
gnarfaceyou have to enable multi-arch, start binfmt-support and do something with qemu-i386-static or qemu-x86_64-static16:26
gnarfacewell, that's to use any binaries in them16:27
gnarfacethe packages will probably install normally with "dpkg -i [package name]" as long as you enable multi-arch16:27
gnarfacebut there's no guarantee you'll be able to use anything in them without the binfmt-support and qemu bits16:28
DPAopenbsdtai123: If you have a rootfs or debootstrap a rootfs of a foreign architecture, and want to install or execute something in there, just install the qemu-user-static, and you should be able to just chroot into it.16:53
DPAMaybe bind mount dev, sys, and tmp. There is no need to do anything with multi-arch in that case. binfmt-support should be set up by qemu-x86_64-static automatically. Copying qemu-*-static to the root to chroot16:53
DPAto is no longer necessary since beowulf/buster, I think. qemu-x86_64-static isn't all that stable, though, and seccomp can somtimes cause a lot of trouble.16:53
gnarfacei had better luck with it in ceres16:58
wikanhi tell mi once again what is text installer in devuan live?18:03
gnarfacewikan: refractasnapshot or refractainstaller or something like that, i think18:05
gnarfacewikan: note that it is not the same text installer as the non-live ones18:05
wikanit starts in gui18:06
gnarfacewikan: really?  look for other stuff named refracta* in the same path18:06
wikanis it possible to install base only from live?18:07
wikanmean nothing else that core system18:07
gnarfacesure with debootstrap18:07
gnarfacei don't know refracta tools well enough to know if they can do it too18:07
wikanis it easy?18:07
wikani like debian installer18:07
gnarfacewell debootstrap just creates the rootfs18:08
gnarfaceyou still have to do some minor setup afterwards like install a kernel and bootloader18:08
wikanok, i will use normal iso18:08
wikanplease, tell me how to check what network driver live cd is using on my computer18:08
wikanbecause i wanna to provide it on usb18:09
gnarfacethe netinstall iso may have it already though18:09
gnarfacelsmod lists all the currently loaded drivers18:09
gnarfacelspci lists all the currently loaded pci* devices and lsusb lists all the devices connected to the usb bus18:10
ham5urgHow can I force update-initramfs to include the lvm-tools?18:10
gnarfaceit doesn't do that automatically when you just run it?18:11
ham5urgNeither 'vgscan' nor 'lvm vgscan' is available. Maybe something's broken18:13
wikancant figure out what the network driver is :|18:13
gnarfacewikan: well i can tell you for sure it's none of the ones that start with snd_18:14
gnarfacewikan: what does this say? lspci|grep net -i18:15
wikani will install from desktop.iso :)18:16
gnarfacei really recommend the netinstall first18:16
gnarfaceit's enough smaller that even if it doesn't work it's worth a try18:16
gnarfaceunless you have a gigabit network uplink or something, maybe then it doesn't matter18:16
systemdletefrom my nightly logwatch:   'lightdm: PAM unable to dlopen( /lib/security/ cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory: 1 Time(s)'18:17
systemdleteFunny, I thought we had totally wiped all traces of systemd...  :D18:17
wikani alwayws was using netistall but not for laptops18:18
wikantoo many probkems18:18
wikanmostly drivers18:18
gnarfacewikan: did you have a problem with the devuan netinstall on laptops, or are you prejudiced against it because the debian one never worked?18:18
systemdletestill, somebody is trying to run systemd something or another18:18
gnarfacewikan: fyi devuan includes the non-free network wifi firmware in the netinstall iso, debian does not18:19
gnarfacesystemdlete: what log file are you seeing that in?18:19
wikandownloading netinstall18:19
gnarfacesystemdlete: (cannot reproduce here, so my initial guess is something self-inflicted)18:20
systemdletelogwatch says it is in log-secure.   When I do a recursive grep, though, I don't find it...18:23
systemdleteah. found it18:24
systemdletewas grepping the string given in the watchlog.  had to separate it out a bit...18:25
systemdletegnarface:  "self-inflicted?"  How?  I only install software from the repos.18:25
systemdleteat least, I think so...18:26
systemdletebrave browser and chrome browser are the only 2 add-ons I have on that system.18:27
systemdletesince this is (apparently) coming from lightdm, it would be too early for either browser to be running yet.18:27
systemdleteoh, look, gnarface:18:28
systemdletethere is also a complaint just before that one, saying that pam is trying to load a "faulty" module, pam_systemd.so18:29
systemdleteso PAM is the culprit then.18:29
systemdletesystemd is God.  It is everywhere, even if we can't see it.  And I can't in this case.18:30
gnarfacesystemdlete: stand by, checking a machine with lightdm18:32
wikanwell I can choose wifi network but connection doesn't work18:33
gnarfacesystemdlete: confirmed, sorry.  it is not self-inflicted18:33
systemdleteso you get the message also?18:34
wikandownloading desktop iso18:34
gnarfacesystemdlete: yea it's showing on a machine that has lightdm installed.  i wouldn't sweat it though unless you actually have a /lib/security/ directory.18:34
fsmithreddo your power buttons work in lightdm?18:34
gnarfacesystemdlete: it seems to be looking for a some or another systemd pam module but not actually finding it, and as far as i can tell this error is harmless18:34
gnarfacefsmithred: no, they don't18:34
fsmithredAdd the following line to /etc/pam.d/lightdm-greeter18:35
fsmithred        session   optional pam_elogind.so18:35
gnarfacefsmithred: they're dead to logged-out users (which is probably for the best anyway, i assumed the fact the menu is still there is merely an omission)18:35
gnarfacethanks fsmithred18:35
systemdletefsmithred:  Shouldnt that be done, by default, in shipped packages?18:35
insecurehi guys, devuan is great work, keep it up. just here to show my support.18:36
gnarfacesystemdlete: yes, but beggars can't be choosers18:36
fsmithredI thought it was fixed in ceres18:36
fsmithredhere's the bug report:
systemdleteceres?  I am not running ceres18:36
gnarfacefsmithred: i can't verify on ceres, my ceres box doesn't have graphical login18:36
fsmithredI know it's not fixed in beowulf18:36
gnarfacefsmithred: am i supposed to append that line btw, or replace this one with it? session   optional pam_systemd.so18:37
systemdletefsmithred, gnarface:  There is a directory /lib/systemd, which I don't expect on a system where there is no systemd installed/running.18:37
fsmithrednot sure. I just copied that from the release notes18:37
gnarfacefsmithred: going with replace then18:37
brocashelmceres is ridiculously stable for me, wtf18:37
fsmithredisn't that where systemd service files go?18:37
systemdleteI have no idea.  Besides, that misses the point.18:37
fsmithredyeah it does18:38
fsmithredmy opinion: we absolutely should not remove that stuff.18:38
gnarfacebrocashelm: it's pretty stable unless you use nvidia hardware, then they break it every time World of Warcraft releases a major version18:38
systemdletewhy fsmithred?18:38
brocashelmgnarface: then thank goodness i don't use nvidia products, lol18:38
fsmithredwhich is the same way I feel about package maintainers who remove init scripts.18:38
fsmithreddon't fucking remove init scripts18:39
fsmithredor service files18:39
fsmithredlet the package work both ways18:39
systemdleteshouldn't all of those be packaged with their respective software?18:39
fsmithredwhat do you mean?18:39
gnarfacefsmithred: is this fix gonna also fix the power/shutdown/reboot menu on lightdm for logged-out users?18:39
fsmithredgnarface, I think so18:39
systemdleteso, e.g., if a user installs packge xyz, then the init script(s) that go with xyz get installed also.18:40
fsmithredI don't think I've ever noticed a difference in power buttons between logged in and not logged in18:40
systemdleteAnd,here, I am assuming the distro's packagers know to do this.18:40
fsmithredsystemdlete, yes as long as the init script hasn't been removed from that package18:40
fsmithredno, they can and do remove init scripts18:41
fsmithredsometimes for no good reason18:41
fsmithredwe just had to fork a couple more packages for that reason18:41
systemdletebut... they should not be removing init scripts for service managers that are packaged for that distro.18:41
gnarfaceremoving rc.local because "nobody is using this anymore, right?" says the guy who's been part of the project for 2 days right before he removes it without actually waiting for any responses18:41
gnarfacethat really pissed me off18:41
fsmithredthey are not absolutely prohibited from doing so18:41
fsmithredsee the results of the last GR18:42
systemdletethe packaging tools could/should enforce this, for any given distro18:42
systemdlete(I assume devuan uses some sort of packaging automata)18:43
fsmithredour git is connected to the package build system18:44
fsmithredwe only package a small percentage of the packages in the repo18:44
fsmithredcouple hundred, and half of those are just task-$language18:45
systemdletesorry, I keep forgetting you have to do all this yourselves.18:45
fsmithredthere'a around a dozen active devs18:45
systemdletethis is so frustrating.18:45
fsmithreddebian has hundreds or maybe thousands18:45
fsmithredif you want everything packaged to your needs, you should run something like gentoo18:46
gnarfaceheh, they threw multiarch overboard unfortunately18:46
fsmithred(I'm not trying to chase you away)18:46
systemdleteif you tell people what they have been brainwashed to believe, you get lots of friends18:46
systemdleteactually, fsmithred, I'm anxiously awaiting adelie linux.18:47
gnarfacefsmithred: login screen power button menu works now! hooraaay!18:48
gnarfacefsmithred: my users would have thanked you if they remembered being mad it wasn't working18:48
fsmithredthat's still less of a pain than waiting for windows update when you're trying to shut down18:49
fsmithredWe did fork lightdm and it's in chimaera: 1.26.0-7+devuan118:51
zatumilthank you, its good to have lightdm in devuan19:18
* systemdlete is testing the suggested change19:23
systemdletesorry fsmithred.  I tried it a couple times, but that message still shows19:30
systemdlete(in the auth.log)19:30
gnarfacesystemdlete: did you actually reboot?19:30
systemdleteit's pretty harmless I guess, though I wonder how secure the login process is if PAM relies on systemd to do its authorization work19:30
gnarfacesystemdlete: did you append that line or replace the systemd one with it?19:31
systemdleteI can try it once more19:31
gnarfacesystemdlete: make sure to replace the line with the one, not just append it19:31
systemdletewrong file!19:32
systemdletemy bad.19:32
gnarfaceyea that'll do it19:33
systemdletethat line is ALREADY in the (correct) file19:34
gnarfacesystemdlete: you're skimming i think.  that's what i thought at first19:34
systemdleteyes.  I admit it.  I skimmed.19:34
systemdletebut now the issue is that I don't need to add that line fsmithred suggested; it is already in there and has been19:35
systemdleteand I still see the message in the auth.log file19:35
gnarfacesystemdlete: are you sure?  because it probably is not elogind19:35
gnarface session   optional pam_elogind.so19:36
gnarfaceread this line letter for letter^19:36
gnarfaceit's not the same as this one v19:36
systemdleteyeah, I see what you mean.  I didn't have both in front of me simultaneousy19:36
gnarface session   optional pam_systemd.so19:36
systemdleteok, so here goes replace19:36
* systemdlete goes back, keeping both eyes open this time19:36
gnarfaceyou were still skimming.  you gotta bust that habit to work with Linux well.  (i was a product of the US school system too, so i know what they did to you)19:37
systemdletemy brain is broken.19:38
systemdletewell, now the error message is still there, but it says it is it can't load19:39
gnarfacehmmm, i wonder if you're missing other packages.  it worked fine for me...19:39
systemdleteI might not have PAM fully configured19:39
systemdleteat least, I never did anything in that regard.19:39
systemdleteand, sorry.  I know I need to look at things more carefully.19:40
gnarface$ dpkg -S pam_elogind.so19:40
gnarfacelibpam-elogind:amd64: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/security/pam_elogind.so19:40
gnarfaceis this package present?19:40
gnarfacethe "skimming" brain damage can be repaired with patience and practice.  Linux is really good for this, luckily.19:41
gnarfacelosing the ability to think quick in a pinch is also potentially terminal, but i don't think that is something you need to worry about19:42
gnarfacewhat you need to do is learn how to turn that off19:42
bozonius3you are right, of course.19:42
bozonius3dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern **19:43
gnarfacebozonius3: yea you need libpam-elogind then too19:43
gnarfacesystemdlete: ^ you too19:43
gnarfaceand anything else it wants to drag in probably19:43
gnarfaceoh, you two are the same person19:44
* gnarface isn't always paying enough attention, either 19:44
bozonius3yeah, I opened a hexchat in the ascii vm to make it easier.  But now I have to log out to test this, so...19:45
* bozonius3 does not always think AHEAD, either.19:45
systemdleteworked.  Thanks19:55
systemdleteone less distraction in the future.19:55
gnarfacekeep backups of that /etc directory19:56
systemdletealways.  On all of my hosts and VMs19:56
systemdlete(except for my testbox and test VMs)19:56
systemdleteon occasion I make an ad-hoc backup of development work on some test system, but it's rare.19:57
systemdleteis this corrected on beowulf?19:58
systemdleteor just ceres?19:58
ankokukishihello everyone i have a question. i installed refracta onto a laptop but i need japanese support for it. When i installed refracta i set everything to japanese but the proper characters dont show up and no matter what i do in terminal, i cant tell what they want me to do becasue the characters dont show up properly.19:58
ankokukishii found some resources in japanese but even when i try to execute the commands, it says something about sudoers (even though i used sudo in the command) but when i remove it, it cant open a dpkg19:59
gnarfacesystemdlete: fsmithred mentioned it seems to be fixed in chimera already20:01
systemdleteyes, I did see that (he said ceres, actually)20:02
systemdletebut not beowulf then20:02
gnarfacesystemdlete: oh what he said was lightdm was forked as of chimera20:02
systemdleteMaybe I'll be skipping beowulf and go straight to chimera20:02
systemdleteless work to do20:02
systemdleteascii has been stable enough for me20:03
systemdleteunless there is some really compelling reason to upgrade to beowulf20:03
systemdlete(security, stability, etc)20:03
gnarfaceankokukishi: does "locale" output the right charmap settings?  if so, then you're probably just missing fonts.  (otherwise, install the "locales" package then run "dpkg-reconfigure locales")20:03
gnarfacesystemdlete: if this was all that's actually wrong with beowoulf for you i'd wait on upgrading to chimera20:04
ankokukishiyeah i think i was missing fonts20:04
ankokukishiim seeing if beowolf works better for this and if not ill try refracta agaibn20:05
systemdletegnarface:  this wasn't really that earth-shaking either.  Like I said, ascii has been very solid and reliable for me so far.20:05
systemdleteI deeply appreciate the work all of you have been doing.20:05
systemdleteI should probably add you guys in my patreon20:06
ankokukishii appreciate it too, i wanna have a backup plan in case mint devs decide to cuck to canonical20:06
ankokukishii like how low spec and simple devuan is20:06
wikanlove firefox20:11
wikanwas downloading devuan 3 times20:11
wikan90% and error 3 times20:11
gnarfaceankokukishi: i got some regexp magic for you: apt-cache search '^ttf-|^x?fonts-'20:11
wikanbut why to print message "disk full" :|20:11
gnarfaceankokukishi: (i don't know if that'll show all of them but i think it'll at least show most of them)20:12
ankokukishithat should at least get me far enough to dl a different font set20:13
ankokukishithanks for your help, ill try again with refracta and see what happens20:14
gnarfacewikan: you could try something like this: wget -O /dev/yourusbdrive
gnarfacewikan: that way it doesnt' need any harddrive space20:16
fsmithredankokukishi, there's a thread on the old refracta forum about japanese locales20:17
fsmithredI'll try to find it20:17
systemdletepaypal only.  :(20:19
wikangnarface: lol nice20:19
wikancleaned disk and downloading via torrent20:20
ankokukishiwell this isnt going well :(20:33
ankokukishimaybe installing in english then switching to japanese might be a better idea? im at a loss when it wont even show the japanese for me to understand what the issue is :/20:35
fsmithredankokukishi, ^^^20:37
fsmithredsee the first post on that page20:37
fsmithredand yes, I think you should install in english and then switch.20:38
ankokukishialso, when i input sudo the only thing i can read is sudoers20:38
ankokukishisomething about sudoers20:39
fsmithredrunning a live session, or after install?20:39
gnarfacenobody is enabled in sudoers by default?20:39
ankokukishiafter install20:39
gnarfacei think?20:39
fsmithredright, nobody enabled unless you chose that during the install20:39
fsmithredin live session, user has sudo nopasswd for everything20:39
fsmithredone of the choices is sudo for shutdown/reboot only20:40
ankokukishiyeah i dunno because the text doesnt show up so i cnat run apt update20:40
gnarfacefor a default install i think you have to add yourself to the sudo group manually, right?20:40
fsmithredI've thought about expanding that so that you could choose groups of commands to enable sudo20:40
fsmithredjust to drive home the idea that sudo is not for everything20:41
fsmithredthe live installer gives you four choices regarding root/sudo20:41
ankokukishii didnt check any of them20:41
fsmithredthe debian-installer gives you two: root account or sudo20:41
fsmithredyou should have a root account20:41
ankokukishiyeah i made one and i made a password for it20:42
fsmithredif you want sudo, add your user to sudo group or make a file in /etc/sudoers.d/ that sets users/commands or whatever20:42
ankokukishimaybe i screwed up during the install process?20:42
fsmithredwell, if you wanted sudo, you should have checked the appropriate box20:42
ankokukishii only have exp with mint, thats why im having issues i think20:43
ankokukishitry installing again20:44
fsmithredthere are always some annoying differences when you switch distros20:44
fsmithredwhy install again?20:44
fsmithredjust for sudo?20:44
ankokukishiyeah because i cant get into anything20:44
ankokukishicant update, nothing20:44
fsmithredthen give root password20:44
fsmithredand you should be able to do anything20:44
debdog("su -")20:45
fsmithrednot necessary - this is refracta20:45
fsmithredI already fixed it20:45
debdoghehe, good!20:45
fsmithredand a few other annoyances20:45
ankokukishioh okay lol20:45
fsmithredand the prompt even turns red when you become root so you don't forget you have a gun in your hand20:46
ankokukishii forgot you can set a root password20:46
ankokukishiim a super noob at linux still, only like 2 months in20:46
fsmithredoh, wow20:46
fsmithredyou'll notice that less stuff is done for you in devuan than in mint or ubuntu20:47
ankokukishiyeah it is20:47
ankokukishigrr its still giving me the same error20:47
fsmithredat first that's a pain, but eventually you may like the idea that whatever is not already set up the way you don't want it20:47
fsmithredwhat error?20:48
ankokukishithat sudoers thing20:48
fsmithredlog out an in again20:48
fsmithredfor it to take effect (assuming you just added yourself to sudo group)20:48
fsmithreddid you do that?20:49
ankokukishishould be sudo su (password)20:49
fsmithredor are you trying to use sudo in a root terminal?20:49
fsmithredsu (password)20:49
fsmithredwithout sudo20:49
ankokukishiah okay20:49
ankokukishimy bad lol20:49
fsmithredyou'll get the hang of it20:49
fsmithredI can't remember my first two months with linux20:50
wikanwhat "unable to resume no such file" means? transmission20:50
wikanthis error stops downloading every few minutes but i can resume20:50
fsmithredwikan, probably means you moved the files20:51
fsmithrednm, that sounds weird20:51
wikani did do anything20:51
wikanit is annoying20:51
ankokukishii couldnt figure it out20:52
fsmithredare you trying to get a devuan iso?20:52
ankokukishii tried everything you said20:52
fsmithredankokukishi, what are you trying to do?20:52
ankokukishii need a break before i break something lol20:52
ankokukishii was still trying to apt update but it wouldnt recognize the password, even after logging out and back in again20:53
fsmithredum, did you change any passwords during the install?20:53
ankokukishiso i think i might need to reinstall and try it in english, then set it to japanese after that20:53
ankokukishino nothing, i kept my passwords the same20:54
fsmithredwhat language did you set at boot?20:54
ankokukishiwhich is why it didnt recognize the fonts20:54
fsmithredyou are in unknown territory20:54
ankokukishiyeah lol20:54
fsmithredtake a break then spend the ten minutes to reinstall20:54
ankokukishii found a couple pages in japanese then tried what they said but that didnt work20:54
fsmithredI need lunch. I'll be back in a few minutes.20:55
ankokukishiim thinking of trying regular devuan and not refracta.20:55
ankokukishiokay have a good lunch, its almost 4am here lol20:55
fsmithredyeah, if you do a netinstall and choose japanese, it should all work20:56
ankokukishishould i use this method?
ankokukishiah i see what happened, i just watched a couple videos and i didnt give root access to my user account. bah21:06
ankokukishiwell 4:15am i need to probably get some sleep, ill try again later and see if i cant figure this thing out lol thanks for all the help21:14
wikancan configure wifi in installer :|21:55
wikani can see networks but cant connect21:55
gnarfacewikan: could be a bug.  do you have a wired ethernet to complete the install with so and get updates?21:58
gnarfaces/ so //21:58
wikanyes but i don't have this type of plug21:58
wikani will try tplink usb card21:59
wikanbut i think it is wpa problem21:59
gnarfacecould be... some devices may need the beowulf-backports kernel21:59
wikantplink works22:00
gnarfacethat's wired or wireless?22:01
gnarfacealright.  i would complete the install with it, do a full "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" and then if the other wifi device still doesn't work, see if installing the beowulf-backports kernel fixes it22:01
wikaninstaller probable choosed wrong driver22:02
gnarfacethat's another thing you could easily override from a completed install22:02
wikanoki ;)22:02
gnarfacethere might be some non-free firmware for the wifi device, and the package for that SHOULD be installed already, but either way, if you get the beowulf-backports kernel make sure to get that firmware package from beowulf-backports too22:03
wikanwill ask for help in about 30 minutes ;)22:03
wikani am installing uefi first time22:06
gnarfacethere's no guarantee that wifi device will ever work, but we'll do our best :)22:08
gnarfaceit's good you have a spare22:08
gnarfacepartial functionality is promising though - usually they don't work because the manufacturer refuses to supply the firmware22:09
wikannot wifi22:09
wikanUEFI :)22:09
gnarfacesorry to be clear, my statement was irrespective of the UEFI part22:09
gnarfacebut good luck22:09
fsmithredmy thoughts exactly22:10
wikanas i remember22:10
wikanwifi has problems even in debian22:10
wikanbut it works from wicd22:10
gnarfaceif you got it working in debian then it should work in devuan too22:10
wikandevuan-live works from wicd22:11
fsmithredoh, with that hardware?22:11
gnarfacefsmithred: does the live image use the same kernel?22:11
fsmithredgnarface, yes it uses the stock kernel22:11
fsmithrednot the installer kernel22:11
wikandebian didnt connect from installer22:11
wikanbut wicd connects me to net ;)22:11
gnarfacewikan: it may just work after you complete the install then22:12
wikanso it is some but in installer22:12
fsmithreddebian does not include non-free firmware on the official media22:12
fsmithreddevuan-live has most wireless firmware installed22:12
fsmithrednot a few of the broadcoms - you have to do those yourself22:12
fsmithredthey have a fucked up license on some of them22:13
wikansystem is installing but i didnt chosose anything22:13
fsmithredi.e. I get to pay their legal expenses if you sue them22:13
fsmithredwhat do you mean about system is installing?22:13
gnarfacewikan: you mean you checked no boxes at tasksel?  that's normal behavior.  you'll get a base install.22:14
fsmithredaren't you running the installer?22:14
wikani did see packages window yet22:14
wikannow it is downloading files22:14
gnarfacewikan: well the netinstall image does download some stuff up front i think...22:14
gnarfacewikan: what boot menu entry did you select?22:14
gnarfacewikan: i recommend expert text mode22:15
gnarfacewikan: not sure exactly where it is in the menus these days22:15
wikanfucking usless apparmor22:15
wikanwhy is this thit installing22:15
gnarfacewikan: the kernel package seems to require it22:16
wikani did installed devuan before but it wasnt THIS installation process22:16
wikani did install python before22:16
wikannow it is installing by self22:16
gnarfacewikan: which image did you boot exactly?22:17
gnarfacewikan: you should see an installer that looks fundamentally identical to the debian one22:17
wikandesktop. selected wifi, configured disk, press format and it  is installing22:17
fsmithredyou can remove apparmor22:18
gnarfacewikan: unless it was in the "installer-iso" directory i think you got the wrong one22:18
wikanit doesnt ask me what software i want22:18
gnarfacewikan: use one of these:
wikandesktop from installer-iso22:18
fsmithredit will ask22:18
fsmithredtakes some time to get there22:18
wikanok asked me now22:19
wikanafter installing a lot of shit22:19
fsmithredIf you care about what packages get installed, then I suggest you choose none22:19
gnarfacewikan: actually, scratch that.  specifically use the netinstall one then so i know you're using something i've seen22:19
fsmithredor just standard system utils22:19
gnarfacewikan: or nevermind, if you're happy with that.  i just realized "desktop" probably implies a lot of pre-selected stuff you may not want.22:19
fsmithredgnarface, as long as he selects a mirror, it will be a netinstall22:19
wikanwell i have tried netinstall and because net did not work i switched to desktop22:19
wikannow i know i would check usb card22:20
fsmithredbut you have a network connection now?22:20
gnarfacewikan: well, it wasn't obvious how, but i could have helped you do the same thing with the netinstall one22:20
wikanwell it is fine22:20
gnarfacewikan: anyway, you're sorted now.  you can always "apt-get purge" any packages you don't want22:21
wikani know ;)22:21
systemdletee1000 0000:00:03.0 eth0: Reset adapter22:21
systemdletein a VM22:21
systemdleteseems harmless, though it might be slowing things down a bit, idk22:21
systemdleteone person indicated that switching to a non-Intel "adapter" helped.22:22
wikanwhen i have seen this error before it was one of last days of my network card life22:22
systemdleteproblem is, that is the fastest virtual adapter, afaik22:22
systemdletewikan:  It's a VM, not real hardware22:23
wikanit is one of last days of your vm :P22:23
systemdleteI doubt it.  This VM has been working for over a year without any major issues.22:23
systemdleteFunniest part is that this goes back 5-6 years or so.  I'm wondering if this is due to a recent vbox change.22:27
wikanswitch to lxc ;)22:31
wikanwhat do you suggest for drawing icons on minial desktop?22:34
gnarfacedoes the software have to be minimal, or just the desktop view?22:36
systemdletewikan: lxc is not the same as vbox22:36
systemdletelxc requires the guest to be pretty much the same kernel and utils as the host, doesn't it?22:36
gnarfacesystemdlete: i think guests and hosts all share a kernel, not sure about any constraints on the utils22:38
gnarfacesystemdlete: (i don't know much about it, but i use linux-vservers which is similar)22:38
systemdletewell, the utils may not work with a different kernel.  They might be hardcoded to certain schema which could change from kernel version to the next22:39
systemdletelinux-vservers:  Not known about that22:39
ankokukishihi again guys. I got my refracta to read japanese but the input method editor hasnt appeared on my panel. Should i restart/log off then log back in and it should work?22:39
gnarfacesystemdlete: linux-vservers is allergic to both systemd and elogind, so lxc could have similar constraints, i just don't know22:39
gnarfacesystemdlete: but other than that you could shoehorn any distro into a guest that can work with the same kernel version as the host22:40
gnarfacesystemdlete: (which for headless servers anyway is usually a lot more forgiving of a range)22:40
ankokukishiyeah logging off fixed it lol22:40
gnarfaceankokukishi: hooraay!22:41
systemdletethat's fine if you are, say, an ISP or something.  But let's say you provide me with your own fancy driver to fix some bug I reported and you say "here, try this"22:41
systemdleteNow, I trust you, but I'd still like to try it someplace besides my host.22:41
gnarfacesystemdlete: heh, yea it can't really do that22:41
gnarfacesystemdlete: the term i heard was "paravirtualization"22:42
gnarfacesystemdlete: what you want is actual virtualization (or just spare hardware)22:42
systemdletelxc is probably ideal for environments like ISPs22:42
ankokukishiwell at least the problem was easy enough to solve, give user sudo access LOL22:42
gnarfacesystemdlete: the approach of paravirtualization is that it is a lot faster without specialized hardware22:43
systemdletein vbox-speak and in xen-speak, "paravirtualization" mean different things22:43
gnarfacesystemdlete: the benefit of the approach, i mean to say22:43
brocashelmbtw we also have an off-topic channel: #devuan-offtopic22:43
gnarfacesorry yes, i've drifted off topic my bad22:43
systemdleteyeah yeah22:43
systemdletemy bad too22:43
wikandevuan (*x*)22:46
fsmithredankokukishi, you got japanese working?22:48
ankokukishiyeah i did, i had to check the box to make the user account have root access22:50
ankokukishionce i did that all the commands worked22:50
fsmithredwhat's the input method editor?22:51
ankokukishiits the the thing that allows you to type in non-romanized languages22:51
fsmithredis it ibus?22:51
ankokukishiits mozc22:52
ankokukishion linux22:52
ankokukishion windows its "windows input method editor"22:53
ankokukishibut we dont care about that22:53
ankokukishinow i just need to add a couple more programs and then my laptop will be fully refracta operational22:55
brocashelmall my machines are on refracta22:55
brocashelmno dual booting bs either22:55
ankokukishiim gonna keep mint on this pc for awhile longer, then possibly switch it over later22:56
ankokukishii need to play with refracta more22:56
brocashelmyeah, no rush22:56
brocashelmhave to get a feel for it first22:56
ankokukishii like having two different distros though22:56
ankokukishiso i can expand my linux horizons22:56
brocashelmyou can always just fire up virtualbox and try different distros without compromising your drives22:56
ankokukishiyeah i know22:57
ankokukishiid probably do that on this pc22:57
ankokukishioh shit i forgot to install powertop LOL22:58
ankokukishioh well whatever22:58
ankokukishinothing i cant do later22:59
vostrowikan: Did you get your wifi situation sorted?23:03
brocashelmand the refracta tools allow you to make your own live usb installer, so you can copy your settings instantly between machines23:03
wikaninstalling :)23:04
vostrowikan: So, you installed without wifi working?23:05
wikani will tell you in 10 minutes when i reboot23:05
wikani use usb wifi now23:05
wikandonwloading pkgs23:05
wikancant stop23:05
vostrowikan IC. If you installed without wifi working, you may wind up with connman isntalled which could interfere with network manager or wicd23:06
fsmithredwicd is the default for most of the desktops23:07
vostroconnection manager23:07
wikani use wicd now for usb23:07
fsmithredI know what connman is23:07
vostrowicd did not install for me when I had to wifi23:08
fsmithredwhat desktop did you choose?23:08
fsmithredprobably qt23:08
fsmithredwicd is gtk23:08
fsmithredI don't remember what comes with kde.23:09
wikani install wicd by self because network manager is too heavy23:09
wikani use wicd-curses on my laptops :)23:09
vostrohad to remove connman and then install wicd. Otherwise I would get a conflict23:10
ankokukishiim just curious but what was behind the decision to keep the DE of devuan looking like windows 98? To keep it lightweight?23:10
vostroWifi would start off disabled and wouldn't automatically reconnect on boot23:10
fsmithredthat's xfce23:10
fsmithredyes, it's a lightweight desktop environment23:10
gnarfaceankokukishi: xfce got promoted to default window manager over gnome due to time constraints (it was a lot more work to extract systemd from gnome)23:11
gnarfaceankokukishi: just stuck that way after because everyone liked it23:11
fsmithredwin98 had all the basic elements of a useful interface23:11
ankokukishii have mint 20 xfce but it looks more modern, whereas devuan looks "retro" for a lack of a better term. I am not criticizing it, i like it lightweight, just curious :)23:11
vostrowind:just make sure connamn isn't installed also. You don't won't two network managers competeing23:12
brocashelmxfce is the superior desktop for me23:12
ankokukishii agree23:12
brocashelmi'm glad xfce was considered over gnome23:12
ankokukishii hate LMDE because its on cinnamon23:12
ankokukishijust wasting memory on flashy crap23:13
fsmithredwe couldn't even run gnome in devuan at first23:15
fsmithredI'm not sure what made the difference. Maybe elogind.23:15
ankokukishiwow that sucks23:15
fsmithredonly for those who want gnome23:15
vostroEven if you instal the LXQt desktop, you still get the xfce window manager by default - which is what I am running23:16
brocashelmyes, xfwm423:16
fsmithrednot openbox?23:16
ankokukishii like it as is, nice and light, perfect for a laptop, hopefully itll let the battery live longer than mint 2023:16
brocashelmisn't openbox mostly lxde?23:16
fsmithrednot sure. I've installed lxqt after lxde and had openbox already23:17
brocashelmi tried lxde before (lubuntu) and remember the openbox settings23:17
brocashelmi didn't like lxde that much23:17
brocashelmfound it to be a pain to work with, especially with setting the keybindings23:18
vostroDebian does a nice job of skinning LXQt. I think much better than anyone else.23:18
ankokukishii dont get why people have to have pretty DEs, functionality is more important *cough*Win10*cough*23:19
vostroI believe that Devuan is using the same LXQt skinning package23:19
ankokukishimaybe thats showing my age lol23:19
brocashelmanokokukishi: xfce is the perfect middle ground because it's lightweight while still being feature-rich23:19
brocashelmyou can easily load up xfce in an instant and see 250-300 mb used up at most23:20
ankokukishii noticed that mint 20 xfce runs around 1.5gb23:20
ankokukishii think ive pushed it to like 2.3 before23:21
vostroI don't need pretty desktop. Just wanted the lightest weight desktop/window manager combination where everything worked out of the box.23:21
brocashelmi could go the tiling wm route, but xfce just works23:21
ankokukishiim wondering how old of a pc can run refracta23:21
brocashelmthat also depends on the kernel version23:22
vostroWasn't sure if openbox installs a file manager or panel for example.23:22
gnarfacei just updated a pentium 266 with 183MB of ram to beowulf23:22
fsmithred2005 Athlon X2 is the oldest thing I have here23:22
gnarfacei'm pretty sure you can get a really old computer running it if you're patient23:22
brocashelmthe newer the kernel, the less likely it will work on a standard i386 machine23:22
fsmithredankokukishi, what's the oldest computer you have?23:23
brocashelmbut i could get mint 18.3 xfce with 4.15 kernel working on a 2004 dell laptop just fine23:23
gnarfaceyea but most of the P2 and P3 chips should work fine, a couple might need a kernel param23:23
gnarfacestuff older than a P2 will require a custom kernel build23:23
brocashelmon a pentium m (single core) cpu23:23
ankokukishinot THAT old, i have an old NEC that stopped working a long time ago, i think it has like 512mb ram or osmething. I got it when i first moved to japan 14 years ago23:23
ankokukishiits a core duo iirc23:23
fsmithredit'll work23:23
ankokukishioh no its older than that23:23
vostroStill have a Gateway 2000 486 with 32 mb of ram running slackware with a windows/dos partition :)23:24
gnarfaceP2 266 that is23:24
fsmithreddon't try to run firefox or chromium23:24
brocashelmthat's just how good gnu/linux is. it will push your machine to its limits :D23:24
gnarface(toshiba satellite pro laptop)23:24
ankokukishipush the LOWER limits lol23:24
brocashelmi recently upgraded a core2 quad system to i523:25
brocashelmnot the first one, but moving things around as my budget improves during this shitty pandemic23:25
ankokukishimy old dell has a core2 duo23:25
gnarfaceToshiba Satellite 4015CDT <<< this is the oldest machine i currently have running devuan23:25
brocashelmit's amazing how stupidly low the prices are for ancient desktops that can still run miles around so-called "modern computers"23:25
ankokukishiholy shit, that toshiba is so old i cant even find any on sale here in japan lol23:26
gnarfacei have two that are older, but they have pentium 1 chips in them, so they're not really worth it23:27
brocashelmthose dell optiplexes are perfect for a stable os as devuan, since they were designed for office use and productivity in mind. very quiet and low on resources, yet can even handle mid-level gaming23:27
wikaninstalled /home on second disk23:29
wikanworking and bam input output error23:29
gnarfacethat's a bad sign23:30
vostroMy Favorite computer laptop was the Toshiba Libretto 70CT. So small it would fit in your briefcase. Very innovative mouse design.23:30
ankokukishii think my fav computer is the one i have now or the dell23:32
ankokukishii need an SSD for it23:32
ankokukishibut i need an ssd for my laptop too lol23:32
wikanback to work :|23:32
wikanfiles back on its place23:32
wikannot sure if i want to use /home there23:33
fsmithredrun smartctl to check the disk23:33
vostroDevuan made my favorite computer My Dell Vostro A(0 netbook again23:33
vostroA90 I mean23:33
fsmithredpackage name is smartmontools23:33
ankokukishihmm im gonna install some packages real quick on my laptop23:34
wikani dont know how to use smartctl :|23:39
brocashelmthere's also a gooey version of it23:39
fsmithredsmartctl -a /dev/sda23:40
fsmithredas root23:40
fsmithredlook for PASSED near the top23:40
fsmithredand look for Reallocated sectors. There should be none.23:40
wikanthe problem is that23:40
wikandisk disapeared again23:40
wikanno entry in lsblk23:41
wikanand it happens AGAIN after I change screen resolution23:41
wikanmaybe connection :D23:41
wikanchangine resolution in XFCE removes a drive23:44
wikanrestarted, changed resolution, /home files dissapeared23:44
fsmithredI get what you're saying, but I don't know what would cause that23:44
fsmithredbad power supply?23:44
wikanone more time wait23:45
wikanit happen again23:46
ankokukishiis there something i can download that will tell me how much battery life i have left?23:50
fsmithredxfce has a battery monitor plugin23:50
ankokukishiis there a way i can put it in my panel?23:52
fsmithredyeah, right-click on the panel23:52
fsmithredon a blank spot on the panel23:52
fsmithredchoose Panel, Add new item23:52
ankokukishinm found it23:52
ankokukishiin the xfce battery settings tab there was a little button that added a battery icon to the panel23:53
ankokukishiits 7am and NOW i get sleepy23:55
ankokukishiwell after the night i had last night, i knew sleeping was gonna be hard :/23:55
fsmithredonce the birds are awake, it's too late to go to sleep23:55
ankokukishifor me its cicadas23:56
ankokukishinoisy fuckers23:56
ankokukishiwell i could sleep a couple hours23:57
brocashelmlol, i'm a night owl23:57
ankokukishijust like a nap23:57
brocashelmthis shit is nothing23:57
ankokukishijust something i needed to share :D23:57

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