libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2020-09-09

rennjBcache patches for the Linux kernel allow one to use SSDs to cache other block devices. It's analogous to L2Arc for ZFS, but Bcache also does writeback caching (besides just write through caching), and it's filesystem agnostic.00:01
rennjnice00:01
yanmaanibuZz: Is there any package that does it for me?00:01
buZzdont think so00:02
buZzrennj: they arent patches anymore00:02
buZzbeen mainline since ~forever00:02
rennjyeah well ive i was doing lvm/ some fs bcache would be nice...or you know just go openzfs00:03
rennjhttps://bcachefs.org/ the future00:05
rennjBcachefs is not yet upstream - you'll have to build a kernel to use it.00:06
rennjmeh..let buZz test it00:06
rennjhehe00:06
buZzyeah i didnt try bcachefs yet00:06
rennjcopy that sun tech00:06
rennjreinvent the wheel00:06
buZzhehehe00:07
buZzquite sure bcache is older than zfs00:07
DHEi'd like to point out that people give zfs' l2arc and slog features far too much credit00:07
buZzbut who knows00:07
buZzi remember when LVM was new, and ppl were falling over each other to adopt it00:08
buZzleading to a lot of dataloss00:08
rennjhttps://blogs.oracle.com/bonwick/zfs-end-to-end-data-integrity00:08
rennjyour merkel tree00:08
rennjlinux lvm is from hp-ux lvm which is like ibm lvm00:09
rennjpull 100drives from array cabinets once cause of bad bios00:12
buZzcausation?00:12
buZzor correlation00:12
buZzthey arent often both00:13
buZzLVM on linux in any way has no interest in whatever firmware you run00:13
rennjlvm is just the volume manager..you have choice on fs00:13
rennjlvm and veritas vxvm where almost identical00:13
buZzi dno, i dont enterprise00:14
rennjits just 1 part of the raid pieces..but with zfs you get in all in 100:14
rennjthe volume manager and fs..and crc integrity00:14
buZzfor me , all-in-one solutions just break tiny parts which then pulls everything off00:14
rennjanyway im sure linux copy of that tech will eventually be production ready00:14
buZzi dont even like phones with cameras00:15
buZzi like cameras00:15
buZzmodern phone takes like 1 minute to boot, my camera boots in 1-2 seconds00:15
rennjread those car camera with embedded linux boot in ms00:18
rennjlike backup rear view display00:18
rennjhttps://www.yoctoproject.org/ spin of devuan version00:20
rennjprobably totally against the spirit of devuan00:22
rennjinclude the binary no source in the final build00:22
rennji only use my phone to make phone calls, with bmc being blackbox..it worthless for computing00:25
golinuxMaybe OT would be a better place for car/phone chat?00:27
buZzrennj: yeah one of my point&shoots is a gopro clone00:30
buZzthats a full linux computer00:30
buZzeither way, i use bcache cause i can sprinkle it onto any fs00:31
buZzsimilar to how zram can work for 'any system'00:31
buZzi have no doubt that camera uses zram aswell00:31
buZzshould check some day i guess :P00:31
* wikan is watching you03:20
masonUgh, unbound is exceedingly ill-behaved.03:59
fsmithredwhat is it doing?04:00
masonIt doesn't write a pidfile on launch. I wonder if the sysvinit scripting has rotted.04:00
masonDoesn't write a pidfile on launch, launches competing copies on restart, won't die because of the pidfile issue.04:03
fsmithredI seem to recall gnu_srs finding something like that in the eudev init script04:03
fsmithredthat sounds vaguely familiar04:03
masonI'm wondering... It appears maybe (still need to dig/verify) to have an implicit assumption that resolvconf exists.04:04
fsmithredI'm trying to find the change that was made (or will be made, I guess)04:05
masonIt's also getting some apparmour denials that I'm trying to understand.04:06
masonstart-stop-daemon says (in its man page) that it won't honor non-root-owned pidfiles, and the unbound pidfile is owned by the unbound user. It's empty and hence won't work, but now it has two reasons why it shouldn't work.04:11
masonHm, changing it to root, it gets changed back and now the daemon stop and starts.04:12
masonWeird.04:12
masonRunnig the daemon, /run/unbound.pid changes back to unbound:unbound, which won't work with start-stop-daemon.04:14
fsmithredmine is not empty and is owned by root04:17
masonIs this after a fresh start?04:17
fsmithredI assume it started last reboot04:17
fsmithreddays ago04:17
fsmithredyeah, it's empty after a restart04:19
masonand unbound:unbound?04:19
masonAnd do you have multiple unbound daemons running after restart?04:19
masonOr maybe after a subsequent restart?04:19
fsmithredyeah, multiple processes04:21
fsmithredand they're still running after attempting to stop the service04:21
masonYeah. man start-stop-daemon and the ownership will jump out as a problem.04:22
fsmithreddelete the pidfile and I can start it again and get a non-empty pidfile04:34
masonRight. But only if it's root:root, and then it'll change to unbound:unbound.04:36
masonI haven't quite figured out what's going on with it yet.04:36
fsmithredshit, I just shut it down04:36
gnarfacedoes unbound have a setting?04:39
gnarfacei note that apparently all my pid files are owned by root04:40
gnarfacei assume for a good reason04:40
gnarfacethe daemon probably shouldn't own it's pid file for security reasons, i think04:41
gnarfacelike for the same reason they typically don't own their log files either04:42
masongnarface: Right. This is discussed in start-stop-daemon.04:42
masonIn particular, if a daemon owns its own pidfile, then if it's compromised, it can rewrite that and cause any other process to be targeted instead.04:42
gnarfaceso i would further presume that unbound would have to be pretty silly not to include a way to specify ownership and permissions of the pid file04:43
masonMy suspicion is that they've called it in for sysvinit and run it as a simple service under systemd.04:43
masongnarface: I think the answer is that it's pretty silly. It needs to write a pidfile before it drops root, and there's no obvious knob to control that.04:44
gnarfacethough, i guess it may not be strictly not necessary for it to write it's own pid file to begin with.  you could do it with bash right?04:44
gnarfaceits*04:44
masonWell. The thing launching it will get a pidfile back. Anything involving a search is decidedly wearing the big mouse ears.04:45
fsmithredsleep time here. Let me know if you figure it out.04:46
masonkk, g'night04:46
masonhrm: https://bpa.st/W5UQ05:00
masonso it really wants to chown it05:00
masonOh, gods, apt build-dep unbound is getting into a fight with itself over libsystemd005:04
masonThis is all gross. :(05:04
masonI think having had a look at the source, I'm going to stop using unbound.05:06
masonBut, for now, testing a quick fix.05:06
rennjheh05:06
masonProbably be worth my while to learn more dnsmasq.05:08
masonOr just go straight back to BIND for this.05:08
rennjdnsmasq has the bonus dhcp and tftp built vs bind.05:10
rennjpxe/ipxe booting helper05:10
masonYeah, that comes up at work a fair amount.05:10
rennjcourse 1 busybox binary provide all that also05:12
rennjalong with sshd ftpd httpd telnetd and such05:13
masonbusybox is useful05:13
rennjwhy android has the toybox is it05:13
masonfsmithred, gnarface: So, I installed build deps (will undo that horror soon) and yanked out the ifdef HAVE_CHOWN block shown in https://bpa.st/W5UQ and rebuild, installed my new versions of unbound, unbound-anchor, libunbound8, and now root continues to own /run/unbound.pid, which means it can start and stop normally without failing and tripping over itself in service-disrupting ways. I didn't see a05:18
masonconfigure knob for this. Is this something where we want to fork and ship our own? I'll be testing the patch I've just described until I ditch unbound entirely, as I depend on it for daily work.05:18
masons/rebuild/rebuilt/05:18
golinuxmason: Perhaps encourage upstream to provide the missing cog?05:22
golinuxunbound on jessie has worked wonderfully well.05:23
golinuxHoping it will remain that way.05:23
masongolinux: Here's the problem with that. This would clearly be broken on Debian without systemd. Hard to imagine getting the Debian package maintainer to care.05:24
masonMaybe they'd care. Dunno. But the conflict is with the sysvinit scaffolding.05:24
masonThe problem is in the source, but the conflict is there.05:24
golinuxMaybe they are unaware that they broke it.  Couldn't hurt to bring it to their attention.05:27
golinuxIf they refuse we can add it to the list of "non-cooperation" packages.  Someday we should publish the list to big the magnitude of the attitude to light (if there is anyone who still cares).05:29
golinuxto big > to bring05:29
masonAlright, I guess that's the reasonable direction, yeah.05:29
golinuxHave a documentary trail could be useful at some point.05:30
rennjthey broke their own /etc/rc.d/init.d/unbound05:30
rennjworks on the bsd's05:30
golinuxWell, double team them!05:30
masonrennj: It's chowning the pidfile that's the issue though. The init script is unremarkable.05:30
rennjso it wants to run as a user/group05:31
masonrennj: Right, but it's chowning its pidfile before dropping root.05:31
golinuxBetter yet, provide a patch for them05:31
masonI'd need to read more of the code to make sure there's no case where they legitimately need to chown the pidfile in a chroot. I can't imagine such a case, but that'd be necessary legwork.05:33
masonI'll see if I can find an upstream to open a bug asking why they want to chown it, anyway. That'll be a good way to test the water to see if it's worth pursuing.05:34
rennjheh fbsd manual     $ kill `cat/etc/unbound/unbound.pid`05:36
masonrennj: That's actually the upstream manual.05:36
rennjit under /var/run on linux i assume05:37
masonConfigurable. They even have examples with it in /etc/unbound05:37
rennjdamn its in base fbsd,open05:39
masonfsmithred, gnarface, rennj, golinux: https://github.com/NLnetLabs/unbound/issues/30305:43
masonrennj: The unbound in base on FreeBSD is weird. It barfs on my standard config, and I end up having to use the one from ports instead.05:44
rennjhttps://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sdeziel/apparmor-profiles/unbound-chown/files/16905:44
rennjdid you say apparmor before05:44
masonYeah, it wants unlimited privs. Reading.05:44
masonhaha, nice05:45
masonThat's one way to do it.05:45
masongolinux: So, if you look at, say, https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sdeziel/apparmor-profiles/unbound-chown/revision/169/ubuntu/16.10/usr.sbin.unbound   you can see how Canonical fixes it. They just force the chown to fail with AppArmor. :P05:45
masonrennj: Nice catch.05:45
masonMakes me wonder why I'm not seeing that same behaviour from Beowulf.05:46
rennjand its old05:47
rennjthis problem05:47
golinuxSome good sleuthing there.05:48
masonrennj: Weird. Beowulf, /etc/apparmor.d/usr.sbin/unbound, we explicitly have apparmor *allow* chown.05:48
golinuxAll I know is that it seems to work without issue on jessie.05:48
rennjhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unbound/+bug/1749931 i was reading prior to that05:49
* golinux doesn't understand the finer points of unbound.05:49
golinuxSometimes knowing too much gets you into trouble . . .05:50
rennjSimon Déziel (sdeziel) wrote on 2018-02-23:"deny capability chown" was initially added for the PID file, see [1]. Failing to chown the PID or the control socket is only logged at higher log level specifically to not generate noise when the chown capability isn't available, see [2,3].05:50
masongolinux: The thing to read here is "man start-stop-daemon" and in particular the paragraph describing the "-p, --pidfile pid-file" option05:51
masonrennj: sdeziel is a good guy.05:51
masonHe's helpful.05:51
masonAnyway, for tonight I've got patched packages running and they run properly, so good enough for now. We'll see what comes back from the bug I filed.05:52
masonI'm soon to become a pumpkin, so, g'night all.05:53
golinuxThank you for doing that!  If sdeziel is a good guy, maybe there is hope . . .05:55
rennjthe cynic!06:50
golinuxLived too long not to be06:52
brocashelmnice06:52
GNUmoon2Hi, I've installed Beowulf on to a i7 10510 with thunderbolt support (Titan Ridge, JHL7540) and trying to get it to work with a dell wd19tb thuderbolt dock. USB peripherals are not work, no external DP screens, no internet via dock.07:40
GNUmoon2I've updated the kernal to backports 5.7.07:40
GNUmoon2add misc-firmware (yuke) just to get stuff working.07:40
GNUmoon2I've activated the dock via bolt adm tool. The logs show the dock being connected with a bunch of peripherals.07:42
GNUmoon2Just not sure what else I need to get it to work.07:42
GNUmoon2I used the original installed Pop!OS and that detected two external screens once the dock was authorised.07:43
GNUmoon2typo *USB peripherals are working.07:45
GNUmoon2Possibly relevant error in logs: "Broken atomic modeset userspace detected, disabling atomic" occurs after plugging in dock.07:47
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: maybe video driver related, you might have to specify a video driver in xorg08:09
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: also i'm not sure about misc-firmware, did that come from the distro repos or some 3rd party?08:09
GNUmoon2I used this command: apt install -t beowulf-backports firmware-misc-nonfree08:11
GNUmoon2gnarface: sorry, I should have typed the actual command.08:12
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: ah, i see. well then it's probably fine.   check the xorg log to see if it's loading the modesetting driver or the intel driver, and force it to load whichever the other one is instead08:14
GNUmoon2yeah, I suspect it's the driver level problem, but I don't understand how thunderbolt dock works. Because thunderbolt is effectively a PCI bus, the integrated graphics would just see new connectors.08:14
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: unfortunately i'm not familiar with that hardware either but first i would just try treating it regularly as a second display in xorg08:15
GNUmoon2gnarface: xorg load modesetting.08:15
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: (which wouldn't work for me with the modesetting driver even without a dock)08:15
GNUmoon2I read that modesetting was preferred to the xorg-video-intel driver.08:16
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: yea, it supports more resolutions and hardware in general, and it is way more stable.  but unfortunately for you that doesn't matter08:17
gnarfaceGNUmoon2: it's the default for a reason, but if you want *any* chance of vendor-specific hardware features to work, you're generally going to have to use their own driver08:18
GNUmoon2okay08:18
GNUmoon2mmm xserver-xorg-video-intel is installed according to apt.08:18
gnarfaceyea you'll have to craft a small xorg.conf snippet to override the driver load08:19
gnarfacethe entirety of what you need is at the top of "man intel" but you might need to check "man xorg.conf" for details if you're not familiar with the syntax overall08:20
GNUmoon2okay, I'll create xorg.conf and see if that works. Would I need to disable modesetting in grub (is it event set)?08:20
gnarfacehrmmm. i forget08:20
GNUmoon2yeah, I've created xorg.conf before...long time ago :)08:20
gnarfaceyou don't need the whole xorg.conf anymore, you can just have the Device stanza08:20
gnarfacethat makes things simpler08:21
gnarfaceand i forget if you need to disable modesetting in grub, i know you used to have to when switching from nouveau to nvidia but i don't recall if that was an issue for modesetting/intel (i thought not though)08:21
GNUmoon2gnarface: thanks for the help. I'll try it out.08:22
gnarfaceno problem08:22
GNUmoonWell, I switched to the intel driver via xorg.conf .....and nothing. Still no external displays detected via dock.09:42
gnarfacedamn, sorry. well that's a bummer.09:48
gnarfaceyou said there were messages about it in dmesg though?09:49
gnarfaceany errors?09:49
gnarfaceGNUmoon^09:49
gnarfacei wonder if it's just something simple like you have to also load a thunderbolt driver09:50
GNUmoongnarface: I installed the bolt package and authorised the dock.09:52
gnarfaceGNUmoon: how about the thunderbolt-tools package?  and can you confirm there's a kernel module loaded for it?  i assume there would be one.09:53
gnarfaceGNUmoon: (but the kernel module might not necessarily have auto-loaded correctly)09:53
GNUmoonI had the thunderbolt-tools installed but it does the same thing as bolt, does it not?09:54
gnarfacei honestly don't know.  i don't have any firsthand experience with this.09:55
gnarfacebut there's certain common problems that fit a pattern09:55
GNUmoonlsmod shows thunderbolt module is loaded.09:55
gnarfaceoh, well that's good09:56
gnarfacemaybe the module has some options?  like debug options?09:56
GNUmoonLogs: xhci_hcd 000:06:00.0: Host halt failed, -19 ... Host not accessible, reset failed.09:57
gnarfaceheh09:57
gnarfaceisn't xhci the USB though?09:57
gnarfacedefinitely doesn't look good either09:57
GNUmoonyeah, that's what I thought.09:57
GNUmoonI can still plug in a usb camera and it works via the dock.09:58
GNUmoonred herring?09:58
gnarfacewell, or another symptom of a shared cause09:59
gnarfacemaybe09:59
GNUmoonI wish I copied the log from Pop!OS to see what it is expected when it works.09:59
xinomiloiirc usb3, not very stable09:59
xinomilotry usb209:59
gnarfacelooks like my version of the thunderbolt module only has one parameter:  start_icm10:01
gnarfacewhat's ICM?10:01
gnarface"start ICM firmware if it is not running (default: false) (bool)"10:01
GNUmoonJust looking through logs, nothing else really stands out.10:04
gnarfaceGNUmoon: do you power the dock up before you plug into it?10:06
GNUmoonYes, it's plugged into power before I plug into laptop. The laptop is charged/powered by the dock.10:07
gnarfaceGNUmoon: it isn't a Mac though?10:07
GNUmoonNo, System7610:07
gnarfacemaybe the ICM thing needs to be enabled anyway10:09
gnarfacei'm seeing maybe a weird dependency on ACPI too in some cases?10:09
GNUmoonI'm just looking up what it actually is...10:09
gnarfaceyou have acpid installed, right?10:09
GNUmoonmmm nope...installing...10:10
gnarfacei would think you'd want that for a laptop anyway10:10
GNUmoongee, would have thought that was standard.10:10
gnarfacedepends on how you installed10:10
GNUmoonyeah!10:10
GNUmoonminimal iso ... (very minimal then :) )10:11
gnarfaceoh, yea10:11
gnarfaceyou probably want to make sure you have pm-utils, too, if it didn't install automatically10:12
gnarfacethere's a meta-package called task-laptop that should grab all sorts of stuff automatically if you want...10:12
GNUmoongnarface: thanks for the tip.10:13
GNUmoonICM = Internal Connection Manager (https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/latest/source/drivers/thunderbolt/icm.c)10:15
gnarfaceah!10:15
gnarfacewell that sound suspiciously important10:16
gnarface... to be off by default10:16
gnarfacehmmm10:16
GNUmoon...soooo might be important ;)10:16
ottaviohttps://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/stretch-to-beowulf.html10:41
ottavioHow do I migrate from Stretch to Beowulf but with openrc instead of sysvinit?10:42
ottavioThe guide above mentions sysvinit-core but I'm interested in having openrc instead.10:42
gnarfaceyou can install openrc at any time10:47
gnarfacethe default install might still require sysvinit parts10:48
gnarfacesome people choose to replace it10:49
ottaviognarface: my question is: is it safe to install openrc and then remove systemd or do I still have to install sysvinit-core first before I migrate?10:51
gnarfaceottavio: i don't know for sure if you need to manually request sysvinit-core or if openrc will include it10:53
gnarfaceottavio: it would be easy to tell.10:54
ottaviognarface: Do I need sysvinit-core or not?10:55
gnarfaceottavio: yes10:55
ottavioWhy?10:55
gnarfaceottavio: that's the way debian has it10:55
ottavio$ apt-get -s install openrc |tb10:56
ottaviohttps://termbin.com/oqax10:56
ottavioIt's only recommended.10:56
gnarfaceottavio: well, i know before beowulf it required sysvinit-core10:57
gnarfaceottavio: i don't think the work to change it to the gentoo setup which does not got pushed through10:58
ottavioIn any case, the guide should include instructions for openrc. Can I open a bug about it?10:58
gnarfacei assume so10:59
gnarfacebut to get the openrc setup the way you want it might still require some change to the openrc package10:59
gnarfacesomeone has already done that work, ask around here10:59
gnarfaceit might be in the forums somewhere too11:00
gnarfacealmost certainly is i would think11:00
ottavioSo, why is openrc offered as option in the installer?11:00
gnarfacepopular demand11:00
ottavioI asked on the forum.11:00
ottavioWhy is openrc offered as an option, yet it requires "changes to the package"?11:01
gnarfacewhat?11:01
gnarfacethat's not what i said11:01
ottavioThen I don't get it.11:01
gnarfacei said that if you want to fucking throw sysvinit-core overboard, it requires changes11:01
gnarfaceit absolutely does not require changes to just use the way it is11:01
ottaviook calm down.11:01
gnarfacethere is a historical reasoning to Debian's openrc setup that Devuan inherited11:02
gnarfaceit requires some sysvinit stuff for compatibility11:02
gnarfaceit's not popular amongst people jumping ship from Debian to use openrc with Devuan, so i mentioned that you can still change it11:03
gnarfaceincidentally, every single other one of the openrc refugees went through this same series of panic attacks11:03
ottavioThat doesn't really answer my question, though.11:03
gnarface(in the same order)11:03
gnarfacewhich one exactly didn't i answer?11:04
ottavio<ottavio> gnarface: my question is: is it safe to install openrc and then remove systemd or do I still have to install sysvinit-core first before I migrate?11:04
gnarfaceottavio: i answered that.  i said i assume openrc will include sysvinit-core, obviating the question.11:05
xinomilohttp://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html11:05
ottavioBut openrc does not require sysvinit-core on Debian.11:05
gnarfaceottavio: to be absolutely clear, if it doesn't, then i would not assume it is safe to ignore.  i would still install it if that guide says.  you can always remove it later.11:06
gnarfaceottavio: but i didn't try this myself and it's not the majority of users who has.  if you're patient one of them will show up eventually.11:07
gnarfaceottavio: if you don't want to add risk, just do a regular upgrade and add openrc afterwards11:08
gnarfaceottavio: it won't matter whether you add openrc before or after the upgrade11:12
ottaviognarface: I've read a few threads and I now understand what you meant. Openrc is not used as init by Devuan.11:33
masonGNUmoon: I'm late to this, but I've got one system where I need to explicitly trust the dock in BIOS, explicitly outside of the OS, before all of it works.15:14
fsmithredmason, do you have a rebuilt unbound you would like me to test?15:18
fsmithredI can play with it later today.15:18
masonfsmithred: If you want to test, sure. If you want to build your own, I chopped out that one ifdef from the pastebin last night and rebuilt, no other changes.15:19
masonhalf a sec and I'll whip up a patch.15:19
fsmithredif the packages aren't big, you could send them in email15:20
masonNot too big for an email, but I'll whip up a patch too.15:21
fsmithredthanks15:24
fsmithredheading out now - bbl15:24
masonfsmithred: gmail has it15:26
masonFor folks following along at home: https://bpa.st/KVNA15:30
masonMight be worth doing this in a throwaway VM as I had to scrape the systemd-logind off my system again when it was done.15:31
fsmithredDamn, maybe USPS just took over gmail. I don't see it yet.15:31
masonSep  9 09:26:21 phlegethon postfix/smtp[20208]: EB5E1194CFD: to=<fsmithred@gmail.com>, relay=gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[74.125.132.26]:25, delay=11, delays=7.7/0.04/0.35/3, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 OK  1599657981 u5si1970540ilk.143 - gsmtp)15:31
fsmithredah, there it is15:31
masonmaybe check spam?15:31
masonkk15:31
fsmithredtubes must be clogged15:31
masonGoogle could use a good purgative.15:31
ottavioIs the DNG mailing list available on Gmane.io ?15:43
markizanohttps://hub.docker.com/r/markizano/devuan19:15
markizanoa tee hee19:15
markizano<:19:15
markizanoIs there officially supported Docker images already / am I just re-inventing the wheel here? Didn't see one in Docker hub when searching...19:16
dormitoI recently download a devuan live image, however "apt-get update" complains about "Repository [...] InRealse' changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing' to 'stable' ", it referes to a man page, but that man page doesn't seem to talk about what ever that means20:09
dormitohow do I use the repos?20:09
markizanodormito, if it's auto.mirrors.devuan.org - change to deb.devuan.org if you are >jessie; use archive.devuan.org if == jessie20:12
golinuxGuess you haven't read the Release Notes. https://files.devuan.org/devuan_beowulf/Release_notes.txt20:12
golinuxAlways a good idea to do so;.20:13
golinux"The first time you do this after Beowulf has gone Stable, you will get a warning that the repository changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing'  to 'stable'. Answer 'yes' to proceed. Note that aptitude or apt-get will fail this first time. Only apt will ask you to accept the change"20:14
dormitoI guess nobody bothered to post an updated livecd image after it went stable20:17
dormitoso I have to use the apt cmd?20:18
brocashelmyes20:18
yanmaaniwhy did you deprecate the old domain?20:19
yanmaaniCouldn't you just have set it up to point to the new one?20:19
dormitohmmm is the amdgpu firmware in nonfree or something? it seems kinda odd to include the amdgpu kernel module, and xorg driver but not firmware in the livecd20:22
fsmithreddormito, firmware-amd-graphics is the package in non-free20:24
SuaveDandySo I'm installing Devuan through the CLI.20:24
SuaveDandyHow do I use debootstrap?20:24
fsmithredSuaveDandy, are you doing it from an installed system or from a live-CD20:25
fsmithred?20:25
SuaveDandyLive CD.20:25
fsmithredwhich one?20:25
SuaveDandyThe minimal one with your installer.20:25
SuaveDandyThe one that's GPT.20:26
fsmithredoh, the uefi iso?20:26
SuaveDandyFrom the Refracta website.20:26
SuaveDandyYes.20:26
fsmithredyeah, I remember that20:26
fsmithredhang on, I need to look at the debootstrap command20:26
SuaveDandyI want to install OpenRC instead of sysvinit as well.20:27
fsmithreddebootstrap --arch amd64 beowulf /mnt http://deb.devuan.org/merged20:28
fsmithredyou might try adding --include=openrc20:28
fsmithrednot sure if that will work20:28
dormitofsmithred: thanks. its a royal PITA to get this live cd to working when the gpu driver won't load, and X wont start because it hates FB mode for some reason20:28
fsmithredand that command assumes you mounted the target partition on /mnt20:28
fsmithreddormito, is that the desktop-live?20:29
fsmithredI thought the firmware was installed20:29
SuaveDandyIs it required to be installed from the Internet? I wanted to have a minimal system just like the live ISO.20:29
fsmithreddebootstrap requires a repository to pull from. That's usually our repo, but you could use a local one if you have it.20:30
dormitofsmithred: yup20:31
SuaveDandyThe only thing important is that install the OS without a desktop.20:31
SuaveDandyAs in CLI only. Want to install a specific window manager.20:32
fsmithredwhy not just install the minimal-live system? You don't need internet for that.20:32
SuaveDandyThat's why I'm asking if debootstrap can install the live system.20:33
SuaveDandyThe thing is that I'm installing on ZFS.20:33
fsmithredno, debootstrap installs just the base system20:33
SuaveDandyAnd the guide told me to use debootstrap.20:33
fsmithredslightly less than what you get with the devuan-installer if you un-check all the boxes at tasksel20:33
fsmithredwhich guide?20:33
SuaveDandyhttps://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Getting Started/Debian/Debian Buster Root on ZFS.html#step-1-prepare-the-install-environment20:34
SuaveDandySadly, IRC doesn't include spaces in the link.20:34
SuaveDandyIt's a mess.20:34
fsmithredwow, ok. I didn't look at the directions.20:35
fsmithredIf you can create and format partitions manually, you should be able to use refractainstaller20:35
fsmithredprobably easier to install as is and then switch to openrc after you reboot into the new system20:36
SuaveDandyI've already set up ZFS pools. They are mounted to /mnt.20:36
fsmithreddo they show up as /dev/something?20:37
SuaveDandyThe partitions? Yeah.20:37
SuaveDandy3 partitions: ESP, the boot pool and the root pool.20:37
SuaveDandyWith the root pool being encrypted with the native ZFS encryption.20:38
fsmithreddormito, I will be sure to include firmware-amd-graphics in the next desktop-live isos. I thought I already did that, but I'm not seeing it.20:38
rwpJFTR but I see spaces in the posted IRC okay.  No problem.  But the spec says they should be encoded with %20 encoding.20:40
SuaveDandyI don't think you can install on the partitions directly. The guide had a specific mounting process.20:40
SuaveDandyThe pools are all mounted to /mnt. I think you can install to /mnt only.20:41
fsmithreddormito, if you can boot to console, you can install the package with 'dpkg -i /firmware-amd-graphics'20:41
fsmithredoops20:41
fsmithredthat path is /firmware/firmware-amd-graphics20:41
fsmithredthat path is /firmware/firmware-amd-graphics*.deb20:42
dormitofsmithred: yeah I did that, and then restarted slim. but I had to also enable non-free20:44
fsmithredoh, does it need some other package to work?20:45
dormito(well there was also a correctly times modprobe -r amdgpu; modprobe amdgpu)20:45
SuaveDandyfsmithred: Can I install to /mnt with Refracta installer?20:45
fsmithredSuaveDandy, yes20:45
fsmithredoh20:45
SuaveDandyGood.20:45
fsmithredno20:45
SuaveDandyNot good.20:45
fsmithredit wants a partition20:45
SuaveDandyOof.20:45
SuaveDandyThat's gonna be problematic.20:45
dormitooh, are you saying that the dpkg is included on the image, but not installed? I used the repos to install it (I didn't know the deb was present)20:45
fsmithredlike /dev/sda1 or /dev/mmcblk0p1 or /dev/mapper/mypart20:46
fsmithredyes, dpkg is installed in the live isos20:46
SuaveDandyThe system needs to be installed into mounted ZFS pools. Plus I have ZFS encryption.20:47
fsmithreddpkg Priority is "required"20:47
SuaveDandyNot LUKS.20:47
SuaveDandyThe native one.20:47
golinux<dormito> I guess nobody bothered to post an updated livecd image after it went stable20:47
golinuxYou are always welcome to join the release team to streamline the process to perfection20:48
masonSuaveDandy: What issues are you encountering, if you could summarize?20:48
dormitogolinux: lol I would consider it... if I didn't prefer gentoo for most of my machines (but sometimes I have to setup stuff for other people)20:48
fsmithredSuaveDandy, maybe take a look at this to see how I used refractainstaller: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=232320:49
SuaveDandyI created the pools, mounted them, created datasets and now I need to install the system.20:49
fsmithredyeah, and I don't really remember what I did. I wrote it down because I knew I'd forget.20:50
masonSuaveDandy: I need to write this up as docs rather than a script, but all the concepts you want are here: https://bpa.st/X3OA20:50
fsmithredI think there's a way to do what you want.20:50
masonSuaveDandy: Don't just use the script intact unless you're willing to fiddle with GRUB a bit. I wasn't using GRUB with Devuan for a while, and I need to figure out some install ordering issues.20:51
masonSuaveDandy: But the upshot is that if you pick a path to adventure, you can observe a native-ZFS-encrypted install (potentially on a mirror) there.20:51
masonAlso, FWIW, I find it convenient to partition to accomodate both UEFI and legacy at once, so your layout will likely be mildly different.20:52
mason(And the Debian bits are misleading. There'll be more pain than indicated in forceing debootstrap to not install sysvinit.)20:54
fsmithredbut it's easy to switch over after the install20:55
masonThat's true.20:56
masonJust nettlesome that it's a fight to have the stuff never installed in the first place.20:56
fsmithredSuaveDandy, I think you should stick with the debootstrap instructions20:58
SuaveDandyGot disconnected because I have to use a VPN to access Dev1 Galaxy for whatever reason.20:58
dormitoHmmm. to install openrc you need to do an advanced install right? I dont see an advanced button, or an equivelent check box in the installer20:58
fsmithreddormito, in beowulf it's in the regular install20:59
fsmithredexpert install is in the Advanced option in the installer boot menu20:59
SuaveDandyReporting that Dev1 Galaxy isn't loaded when you're in Russia for God knows what reason.20:59
fsmithredweird20:59
SuaveDandyIt may be blocked by IP.21:00
fsmithredwe're considered terrorists?21:00
fsmithredoh, you might be blocked21:00
SuaveDandyOur censorship… is a funny thing.21:00
fsmithredany censorship is weird21:00
SuaveDandyIt blocks all kinds of things. The things that I like, especially. We have an abusive relationship.21:01
SuaveDandyMight as well just subscribe to a VPN provider.21:01
fsmithredyeah21:01
golinuxThere is also the snaplock on the forum that denies access to funky IP addresses21:03
SuaveDandyOhhhhhhhhhh.21:03
SuaveDandyI have an adblocking DNS.21:03
SuaveDandyAdGuard, to be precise.21:04
fsmithredgolinux, do we ban any groups of IP addresses, or is it all individual addresses?21:04
golinuxIf you land on a tainted exit node in a VPN you will be denied access to the forum21:04
dormitoI dont see anything about the init/rc system in the installer (and it already finished installing)21:04
fsmithreddormito, are you installing beowulf or ascii?21:04
dormitobeowulf21:04
golinuxShould be in expert install21:04
fsmithredchoose_init is in the regular install21:04
SuaveDandyMaybe your forum doesn't like my DNS much.21:05
fsmithredwell, if you already installed the system, just install openrc now. That's easier than reinstall the whole system.21:05
golinuxCould be.  Even I have gotten slammed a few times.21:05
SuaveDandyOuch.21:05
dormitohow do you launch the expert install? or should i just chroot into the system and run the apt-get... is that safe?21:06
golinuxdormito: Screenshots of the installer https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/beowulf/install-devuan21:06
SuaveDandyIt's getting very late. I must wrap up with my installation.21:06
fsmithredstep 1921:06
dormitoso do I need to use a cli installer? (is the option not in w/e gui install was present)21:07
fsmithredyou found a gui installer?21:07
fsmithredI thought we left that out21:07
dormitoyeah. its... barely existant, but yes21:07
fsmithredwhat iso are you using?21:07
golinuxThere is no gui debian installer for beowulf21:08
dormitoit requires running gparted/gdisk directly (but it will launch them for you)21:08
fsmithredoh21:08
fsmithredyou have a live iso21:08
dormitoyeah21:08
fsmithredthat's refractainstaller21:08
fsmithredthat just installs what is on the iso21:09
fsmithredso reboot into the new system, get root terminal, apt update, apt install openrc21:09
dormitoah. ok. The page you linked said you must choose the expert install from the boot screen (grub,sysiso or w/e it is). since my systems already booted, is it possible to luanch with a switch or do I have to reboot?21:10
fsmithredyeah, that was for the installer isos, not the live isos21:10
fsmithredno expert install in the live isos21:10
fsmithreddifferent installer21:10
golinuxJeesh . . . took forever to figure that out . . .21:11
fsmithreddormito, did you already finish the install?21:11
SuaveDandyTHERE we go. http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/trusty/man1/cdebootstrap.1.html21:14
SuaveDandyThis one has flavors like build, minimal and standard.21:16
SuaveDandyWonder if it works.21:17
fsmithredtry man debootstrap in devuan or debian21:18
SuaveDandy"man debootstrap" or "man cdebootstrap?"21:18
fsmithredI know a lot of people like to use minbase but that excludes some command commands21:19
fsmithredI've never used cdebootstrap. Don't know it.21:19
SuaveDandyminbase?21:19
fsmithredcommand commands/important commands21:19
fsmithred --variant=minbase|buildd|fakechroot21:20
fsmithredwithout a variant, you get all required and important packages21:21
SuaveDandyWill it install Xorg and desktop as well?21:22
fsmithredLOL!21:22
fsmithredplease remember to create a root password21:22
fsmithredand remember to install a kernel21:22
fsmithredwithout those two things, the first reboot is really difficult21:22
SuaveDandyTalking about the base install.21:22
fsmithredwhat base install?21:23
fsmithreddebootstrap?21:23
SuaveDandydebootstrap without --variant=minbase.21:23
fsmithredno xorg, but you will get some things like 'less'21:23
SuaveDandyNice.21:23
fsmithredand some other commands you expect to be there21:23
SuaveDandyThat's all I needed, actually.21:23
SuaveDandyWas scared it'll install Xorg.21:24
fsmithrednot even close21:24
SuaveDandyFewh.21:24
SuaveDandydebootstrap it is then.21:24
fsmithredit will install libsystemd0, but you can replace that with libelogind021:24
SuaveDandyCan it actually install libsystemd from Devuan's repos tho?21:25
SuaveDandyI remember it's blacklisted.21:25
fsmithredwhat do you mean?21:25
SuaveDandyAll the Systemd packages are blacklisted.21:25
fsmithredno, libsystemd0 is not blacklisted. It's just a library that will say "systemd is not installed" when apps ask about that.21:25
SuaveDandySo how do I replace it with libelogind exactly?21:26
fsmithredapt install libelogind021:26
SuaveDandyCan't you just --exclude=libsystemd --include=libelogind?21:27
fsmithreddon't know. Try it and let us know if it works.21:27
fsmithredmust add the 0 to the name21:27
SuaveDandyAlright.21:27
SuaveDandyIs elogind installed with debootstrap tho?21:35
gnarfaceprobably not unless you ask for it too21:35
gnarfacedebootstrap won't even install a kernel unless you remember to ask it21:36
gnarfaceit does not leave you with a bootable system on it's own21:36
gnarface(people usually chroot into the debootstrap target to finish setup manually)21:37
SuaveDandyIs the kernel package called linux?21:41
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: linux-image-* and linux-headers-*21:42
SuaveDandylinux-headers-$(uname -r)?21:43
SuaveDandyAlready installed.21:43
SuaveDandyOn the live system tho.21:43
SuaveDandyBut is it the same?21:43
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: yes, but inside the debootstrap target you're going to need one as well21:43
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: try this one: apt-cache search '^linux-(headers|image)'21:44
SuaveDandyOr you do apt install linux-headers-$[uname -r] after chroot?21:44
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: yes, i meant after chroot21:44
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: don't forget linux-image-*21:45
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: you only might need a linux-headers-* but you absolutely will need a linux-image-*21:45
SuaveDandyIs it installed by using $(uname -r) variable as well?21:45
ranixgnuface21:45
SuaveDandyDo I do this after installing GRUB and setting up the users?21:46
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: you're on a amd64 system?  uname -r might or might not match the current version.  if it is a amd64 system though, "linux-image-amd64" always points to the latest21:46
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: *before* installing GRUB.  won't matter what order you add the users.21:47
ranixdebootstrap basically installs the userspace on a disk21:47
ranixthen you install the kernel and install grub separately21:48
SuaveDandyAnd I've already used linux-headers-(uname -r) for the live system.21:48
ranixI usually debootstrap then chroot into the userspace to set up the rest of the packages21:48
ranixor just use a usb netinst21:48
gnarfaceranix: SuaveDandy is paranoid about unnecessary packages and is trying to accomplish a minimal debootstrap for his first time21:49
ranixfirst time installing linux ever?21:49
SuaveDandyYep.21:49
ranixyou should just install off a usb stick and take what you get until you're more familiar with it21:50
fsmithredomg, I didn't know that21:50
fsmithredranix, he's doing this on zfs21:50
fsmithredyou are bold, dude21:50
SuaveDandyWell, I've installed Void Linux before.21:51
SuaveDandyYes, I'm bold.21:51
SuaveDandyA Windows user installing Void Linux from CLI with LUKS on root.21:51
ranixthe kind of person who installs void linux can usually just change their desktop to a skull and crossbones and open up a few cmd prompts before setting the text color to green and be happy with just that21:51
SuaveDandyAnd Wayland's Sway.21:51
fsmithredlol21:52
SuaveDandyIt wasn't too hard. Just needed to follow instructions.21:52
fsmithredSuaveDandy, do your debootstrap and chroot instructions include bind-mounts for /dev /proc and /sys?21:52
fsmithredyou'll need that to do grub-install in chroot21:52
SuaveDandyYes.21:52
SuaveDandyOf course.21:53
SuaveDandyHow can it be otherwise?21:53
ranixhttps://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap is the cheat sheet I use basically every time21:53
SuaveDandyI mean, /dev is like all the connected devices.21:54
fsmithredhey, my first kernel compile was so I could compile sound in the kernel, and I ended up with a kernel that only had sound21:54
SuaveDandyYou obv need that in chroot.21:54
ranixfsmithred: No screens found.21:54
ranixbecause your mouse wasn't plugged in21:54
ranixthose were the days21:54
fsmithredno filesystems found21:54
fsmithredor known21:54
fsmithredI need to go outside. biab21:56
SuaveDandyYeah, I hopped on lots of distros. Alpine included.21:57
SuaveDandyAlpine was a mistake.21:57
SuaveDandyVoid is rolling. And I am lazy.21:57
SuaveDandyElementary had a bug with Cerbere.21:57
SuaveDandyRegolith's installer crashed on me. ArchLabs broke my PC. It's a mess.21:58
SuaveDandyGuys, Debian is EASY… I just wanted to install it on ZFS. That's why I'm fiddling around with debootstrap.22:02
SuaveDandyEmmmm, can't cd to http://deb.devuan.org22:08
SuaveDandyWeird.22:08
SuaveDandyAHHHHHHH.22:08
SuaveDandyDamn, forgot to add "beowulf."22:09
SuaveDandyOuch.22:09
SuaveDandyYep, it's bootstraping.22:10
SuaveDandyLook at it rolling.22:12
ranixit's debootstrapping22:23
ranixyou thought it was bootstrapping but it was actually the opposite22:23
yanmaaniim booooooooooootstrapping22:23
SuaveDandyOhhhh, so that's what "de-" means.22:31
SuaveDandyI thought it stands for Debian.22:32
SuaveDandySo, as for rbinding.22:34
SuaveDandyDo you do it like "for dir in dev proc sys: do?"22:35
SuaveDandyWait a sec. Let me check.22:35
MinceRbian is the opposite of debian22:35
SuaveDandyThat's logical.22:36
SuaveDandyExcept that bian doesn't exist.22:36
ranixdeb exists but ian was murdered by the police22:37
SuaveDandyI was wrong.22:37
SuaveDandyfor dir in dev proc sys run; do22:38
SuaveDandyfsmithred: You know, --include and --exclude do indeed work.22:53
fsmithredyou got openrc without going through sysvinit first?22:53
SuaveDandyYeah, it's here.22:55
SuaveDandyOn the chrooted system.22:55
SuaveDandyWas I not supposed to include it?22:56
fsmithredhuh? I'm just verifying that I you got what you wanted.22:58
ranix<3 sysvinit22:59
ranixI sucked it up and allowed upstart and learned it and even made a product with it22:59
ranixI figured if so many people were going to start that much shit over an init system it wasn't worth fighting against23:00
SuaveDandyOpenRC still relies on SysVinit, right?23:00
ranixand then as soon as they were done raising hell they did it again23:00
ranixgive these people an inch23:00
SuaveDandyOnly Gentoo and Alpine use OpenRC-init?23:01
ranixno idea, I'm never learning another init system23:01
fsmithredyes, openrc uses sysvinit scripts23:01
ranixexperience has taught me that everyone who has a problem with sysvinit is retarded23:02
SuaveDandyOof.23:02
ranixyou might say no, that's not the case in all situations23:02
ranixand yes sysvinit has problems23:02
ranixbut the real world has spoken23:02
ranixjust try to imagine23:03
SuaveDandyI guess OpenRC is still good for service management. Tho it is technically not an init system then. On Devuan, at least.23:04
ranixsomeone, probably sloshed out of his fucking mind, proposed with complete seriousness that the idiot who wrote pulseaudio be allowed to author yet another init system and everyone should switch to it23:04
ranixand everyone said wow what a great idea23:04
SuaveDandyranix: Having a bad day?23:05
ranixthen they went back to arguing about whether or not users of python should be allowed to use the terms "master" and "slave" in man files23:05
SuaveDandyAh, that dum-dum thing.23:05
ranixhasn't anyone considered whether man files themselves are inherently toxic and masculine23:06
SuaveDandyYeah, not something I like either.23:06
SuaveDandyActually, I remember people talking about man being toxic.23:07
yanmaanino23:07
SuaveDandySo there's that.23:07
yanmaaniyou've got to be kidding me23:07
SuaveDandyNo.23:07
yanmaanithis must be a joke23:07
SuaveDandyAh, yes.23:07
SuaveDandyYes, it is.23:07
ranixthis is why I was against removing bitchx23:07
yanmaanisurely people can't be this stupid23:07
SuaveDandyPeople were joking about replacing the name of man due to it being toxic.23:08
SuaveDandyDue to all this happening.23:08
yanmaaniYou have to fight back. If you have 10 guys saying "nuke every trace of master/slave" and 10 guys saying "nah it's fine as it is", it'll end up somewhere in the middle - "well it's a bit problematic but whatever"23:08
SuaveDandyI guess so. But how?23:09
ranixno they'll never stop23:09
yanmaaniyes, that's why you have to push against them23:09
yanmaanithere has to be an equal and opposite force23:09
ranixthey will use systemd to get rid of you23:09
ranixand then when you're gone they'll change upstream however they want23:10
yanmaaniSuaveDandy: use more offensive and less anodyne terms23:10
SuaveDandyAh, that makes sense.23:10
SuaveDandyI wasn't even considering using anything other than master.23:10
luser977inclusiveness requires 33% man pages, 33% fem pages and 33% oth(er) pages23:10
yanmaaniyou should obviously keep using master. But if their guys are sending in 30 PRs a day to change terms to less offensive terms, you have to send in 30 PRs a day to change terms to more offensive terms.23:11
yanmaaniThat's how it works.23:11
SuaveDandyI can imagine fem being for configs.23:11
ranixthis page intentionally left gender-neutral23:11
SuaveDandyThat would be kinda funny. fem as man 5.23:11
ranixbe sneaky and make the default visualizer for man more and fem less23:12
SuaveDandySo we have man for man 8, fem for man 5… but what would nonbin act as?23:12
yanmaaniUB23:13
yanmaanipicks one at random23:13
luser977oth23:14
GNUmoonmason: I'm late getting back to you :) The System76 laptop has coreboot from System76, so there are no settings to change, unless I rebuild coreboot. That said, the dock worked using Pop!OS after I authorizedd the dock in Gnome gui.23:15
GNUmoonSo theoretically the bios is not the problem.23:15
masonGNUmoon: Hrm. Unless there's some special support needed that doesn't exist in coreboot. I'm not clear on what's needed to enable the dock. Mine was on a ThinkPad X1C6.23:16
SuaveDandyHeeheheheeeeeh. SysV-RC isn't installed. Good sign of OpenRC installing correctly.23:17
SuaveDandyfsmithred: Yeah, debootstrap with --include and --exclude is pretty much everything one needs. No chroot required.23:19
SuaveDandyI mean, it's still required for setting up things but still.23:19
fsmithredhow you gonna make a root password?23:19
fsmithredoh, ok23:20
SuaveDandyLegit method of installing the kernel and stuff.23:20
SuaveDandyI'm setting up the locales.23:21
SuaveDandyDo you think I should add my native language?23:21
SuaveDandyOr should I just leave English and not bother?23:22
ranixdepends on what your native language is23:22
ranixand how you type it23:22
ranixyou can always dpkg-reconfigure locales later23:23
SuaveDandyI mean, I would still need the keyboard language.23:23
SuaveDandyHm, I don't seem to be able to dpkg-reconfigure the locales.23:25
ranixare you doing it as root23:26
ranixsudo23:26
SuaveDandyOf course.23:26
SuaveDandyI've chrooted into /mnt23:26
SuaveDandyMaybe that's why I'm not able to.23:26
gnarfacelocales is a package.  it's probably not installed by default23:27
gnarfaces/probably//23:27
SuaveDandyI've installed it just now.23:27
ranixI just assumed "setting up the locales" meant setting up the locales package23:27
SuaveDandyNo.23:27
SuaveDandydpkg-reconfigure locales.23:28
fsmithreddoesn't it go through that when you install the package?23:28
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: it is supposedly safe to add multiple locales, but to avoid bugs i would recommend you do not omit utf8 and latin123:28
gnarfacefsmithred: i think the debconf priority is different in a debootstrap install23:28
SuaveDandyNo, it does not.23:28
SuaveDandySo you think I should've chrooted before installing the kernel?23:30
ranixlook at this guy chrooting around all over the place23:30
SuaveDandyI mean, I installed the kernel through debootstrapping and then chrooted into /mnt.23:31
SuaveDandyI'm starting reconsidering using ZFS on Debian.23:33
ranixthe kernel doesn't really affect your ability to chroot23:33
ranixpresence or absense23:33
ranixzfs is not usually worthwhile23:34
ranixuse ext4 if it's your first time23:34
SuaveDandyReally?23:34
ranixit's worth experimenting with btrfs or zfs on a secondary drive or partition23:34
SuaveDandyAh.23:34
SuaveDandyBut the snapshots.23:34
ranixsnapshots of a bunch of shit logrotate deletes anyway23:35
specingbtrfs is great23:35
specingyou can delete the snapshots whenever you want23:35
specingkeep in mind that ext4 has no data integrity assurance23:36
SuaveDandyThe ZFS manual told me how to not snapshot stuff like cache and tmp.23:36
specinga bad disk can change your data with impunity23:36
specingtmp should be on tmpfs, anyway23:36
specingunless the temporaries are big, they should never hit the disks23:36
SuaveDandyOne person says to me tmpfs eats RAM.23:37
SuaveDandyYou tell me /tmp is supposed to be on tmpfsd23:37
SuaveDandyWhat am I even supposed to do at this point?23:37
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: tmpfs doesn't eat much ram23:38
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: what you're supposed to do at this point is decide for yourself23:38
masonUse it for builds and it can. :)23:38
gnarfaceright, which is partially why i have a 5GB physical /tmp partition on my workstation but the virtual servers all have between 32MB and 64MB of tmpfs for /tmp/ instead23:39
gnarface(most people are not going to use more than 16MB but some stuff like firefox and mysql, and certain kernel packages can get messy)23:40
masonRust23:40
SuaveDandyMaybe I should instead use BtrFS? Or is it even harder to maintain?23:40
masonSuaveDandy: I'd stick with ZFS, but you can use whichever. If you use BtrFS, stick to a very simple config and make sure you have back-ups.23:41
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: ext4 is the most common choice so that's the one that's gonna generally get the best support, but i would recommend XFS anyway23:43
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: everyone has a different opinion about this but it's more important you practice with all of them than you decide now23:43
masonOnce XFS grows self-healing by way of Stratis I'll start recommending it.23:44
SuaveDandyCan XFS do snapshots?23:44
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: i think there is some well-documented snapshot mechanism for it yes23:45
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: not sure if it's a built-in or a bolt-on though (suspect it's more of a bolt-on)23:45
SuaveDandymason: can you install the system on ZFS through fsmithred's installer?23:45
syco-you might try NTFS integrated right into the kernel now :p23:46
masonSuaveDandy: I use his live images now to install Devuan on ZFS. That's not the same as an installer.23:46
SuaveDandyWow, XFS having snapshots? Did not expect that.23:46
syco-(kidding)23:46
SuaveDandyI'm talking about Refracta installer.23:47
fsmithredSuaveDandy, what's the mount command for whatever you mount at /mnt?23:47
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFS#Snapshots23:47
fsmithredwhat's the name of the device you mount?23:48
GNUmoonmason: Well, I don't think the problem is in coreboot, given Pop!OS worked previously. When I get a chance, I'll live boot Pop!OS again and see what is going on in the logs and versions of packages...cannot think what else to do at this stage.23:48
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: (short version is it doesn't support snapshots itself, but it has xfs_freeze, after using which you can snapshot with basically anything)23:48
GNUmoonI'll also check xorg logs, lsmod, etc...23:49
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: it's probably worth mentioning that the practical value of snapshots over tar is in most cases entirely hypothetical23:49
SuaveDandyGimme a sec.23:50
syco-rsync23:50
SuaveDandyfsmithred: rpool/ROOT/devuan and bpool/BOOT/devuan23:53
SuaveDandyThe filesystem datasets.23:53
fsmithredwow, I have to look at the code. I think it expects /dev/something23:54
fsmithredok, $install_dev is whatever you type in when it asks (in the cli installer)23:56
fsmithredand then it gets tested to see if it's a block device23:56
fsmithredwill that test pass or fail?23:56
fsmithredsame for $boot_dev if you're using separate /boot23:57
SuaveDandyYou first create rpool and bpool ZFS pools, then you create rpool/ROOT and bpool/BOOT container datasets and after that you create and mount rpool/ROOT/devuan and bpool/BOOT/devuan23:57
fsmithredso...23:57
fsmithredif [ -b bpool/BOOT/devuan ] ; then echo "yeah, it's a block device." ; fi23:58
SuaveDandyIt's, eh… It's a weird process.23:58
fsmithredcan you run that line?23:58

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