libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2020-09-11

Wonkahaven't had problems there, and I'm running -rc kernels for years now00:00
gnarfaceWonka: (which they quietly sweep under the rug instead of putting a warning label on it like they should)00:00
gnarfacebut then, the primary risk for servers losing power for me is them losing power, so just keep everything on UPS, so ymmv.00:00
SuaveDandymason: Just to clarify. Is it a neat idea to make a dataset for /usr? I heard Bash and other user-executable programs are here.00:26
SuaveDandyJust to clarify before debootstrapping.00:27
gnarfacedataset?00:27
SuaveDandyZFS dataset.00:28
SuaveDandySo I can snapshot it seperately.00:28
masonSuaveDandy: You're talking about a usrmerged system. Without usrmerge it's in /bin/bash.00:28
gnarfaceuser executable programs should be mostly residing in the followind directories: /sbin, /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin00:28
masonSuaveDandy: The script I showed you shows the directory structure I prefer, but you have to decide what you want.00:29
gnarface(you might have stuff in /usr/local/bin and /usr/local/sbin but if you were following the rules there shouldn't be anything there you didn't put there yourself)00:29
SuaveDandyI guess it's simpler to just snapshot the whole root except userdata so I don't have to check which software is where.00:30
SuaveDandyDo BSDs still use /usr as /home?00:30
masonRecursive snapshots are useful. I would snapshot user data too. User data especially.00:30
SuaveDandyOr did they switch to /home too?00:30
MinceROpenBSD uses /home00:31
masonNetBSD and OpenBSD use /home. FreeBSD and presumably DragonFly use /usr/home.00:31
masonbbiab, dinner00:31
SuaveDandyWanted to try NetBSD also. It is said that it has great compatibility due to abstracting the hardware components.00:32
SuaveDandyVery interesting architecture.00:32
SuaveDandySorta like Project Treble but deeper.00:33
SuaveDandymason: Hey! The ZFS guide does include linux-headers-amd64 and linux-image-amd64 installation after all!00:37
SuaveDandyYou didn't have to worry.00:37
SuaveDandyPerhaps this guide is more robust than it seems.00:38
SuaveDandyBut wait. Do locales need elogind?00:39
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: locales should not need elogind00:44
gnarfaceat least it didn't last i checked...00:45
gnarfacethings like that have been shifting lately in a bad direction00:45
yanmaaniwhy is directory strucutre so bad?00:47
yanmaaniwhy doesn't anyone fix it?00:47
yanmaanilike why are there folders /etc and /usr? why /opt?00:47
golinuxyanmaani: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard00:51
SuaveDandyBecause it's not NixOS/GoboLinux/BSDs.00:52
gnarfaceyanmaani: it makes a lot more sense if you remember computers that were slow enough that character counts in file paths were an actual performance issue00:52
SuaveDandyHave problems with the structure? Use these instead.00:52
gnarfaceyanmaani: (and storage issue)00:52
SuaveDandyOkay. Gobo's too obscure.00:53
SuaveDandyWait. Wasn't Gobo a Debian fork?00:53
gnarfaceyanmaani: but it is also designed to categorize files by type instead of by package association, because this made distributing read-only parts of the filesystem easier00:53
SuaveDandyI remember it was.00:53
yanmaanignarface: they have improved since then as I understand it00:53
yanmaanithat they had problems back then I don't doubt, but why keep it now?00:54
gnarfaceyanmaani: the computers?  yes.  but all you have to do is try running some Linux software on OSX (which works after you fix the paths) to realize why nobody who is sane and not being paid does shit like that00:54
SuaveDandyHeard BSDs have a better directory structure and are easier to admin in that regard.00:54
yanmaaniI know there's some distros which change it00:54
MinceRprobably more of an issue with typing and printing on teletypes with slow connections00:54
yanmaaniit seems like installing all binaries in /bin is a good first step00:55
gnarfaceyanmaani: there was also meant to be security barriers betweeen / and /usr00:55
SuaveDandyNixOS uses containers. That way you can track the deps with hash names and store multiple files so you won't get into a dep hell.00:55
SuaveDandyMultiple versions.00:56
SuaveDandyNot files, sorry.00:56
SuaveDandyBy brain coockoogaga when it's night.00:56
gnarfaceyanmaani: sorry, i've been working on trying not to accidentally do injustice to people by hiding the truth by being too polite.  the simple version is it's not that complex and if it seems bad to you, your opinion is sophomoric (and the proof of that is that nobody who does understand it wants to change it anymore)00:57
stovepipeoh god00:57
stovepipei was going to say, go learn A  LOT more about unix00:57
gnarfaceyanmaani: the words seem arcane and esoteric because they're shortened, but contextually it makes a lot of sense00:58
gnarfaceyanmaani: and the barriers they provide to you are only there at first.  they evaporate once you understand the context00:58
stovepipeand other small details why all binaries are not in /bin00:58
gnarfaceyanmaani: it is important you don't take this personally.  they didn't do it to hold it out of your reach.00:58
stovepipe+like00:59
gnarfaceyanmaani: (and indeed it is not beyond your reach, in fact it would not even require mustering nearly as much willpower as you fear)00:59
stovepipeslight paradigm shift01:00
stovepipestate of mind thing01:00
gnarfaceyea01:00
gnarfacecan't be explained easily, but try it and you'll like it01:00
yanmaaniTry what? Using a filesystem?01:00
stovepipeunderstanding why things like /etc exist at least01:01
yanmaanihttps://sta.li/filesystem/ This seems like a reasonable proposal01:01
gnarfaceyanmaani: no i mean literally try liking the FHS as it is, before you plan on how you're going to replace it01:01
yanmaaniand I can't think it'd break too much stuff01:01
yanmaaniI understand it as "historical path dependency reasons"01:01
yanmaaniwhich, yeah, I guess.01:01
stovepipe"historical"01:01
gnarfaceis sophomoric01:01
gnarfacetrue, but scratches only the surface, leaving you devoid of the awareness of reasoning behind it01:02
stovepipei also hear "cryptic" alot01:02
gnarfacecryptic, or arcane are fair, but again that's just shortened words01:02
gnarface /usr stands for user's, /bin stands for binaries01:02
stovepipeitrs also another initial fear type response to unix shell etc01:02
yanmaaniBut /usr isn't user's stuff, that's in /home01:02
stovepipeto brush it off as "cryptic" instead of understanding it01:03
yanmaaniI've been using the unix shell for a long time now01:03
stovepipeuserland01:03
yanmaaniI understand where the stuff is, I just can't understand why there isn't any effort to make it more sensible01:03
gnarfaceyanmaani: ah but here is where you're wrong, but i put the apostrophe in the wrong place; it's "users'"01:03
stovepipeit is perfectly sensible01:03
stovepipeyou just dont understand it01:03
stovepipethere is no reason to make everything universal to appeal to the least common denominator, that is making everyone stupid instead of advancing humanity01:04
gnarfaceyanmaani: /home is individual user's stuff.  /usr is all the users shared stuff.  stuff in /sbin and /bin was meant to be for administrative purposes and booting (back then putting it all on one disk was costly and rare too)01:04
masonSuaveDandy: Eh? Not remembering being worried about something. You'll need to refresh my memory.01:05
yanmaaniBut /usr isn't on a separate disk now. Why can't you merge /usr/bin/, /usr/sbin/, /bin/, and /sbin/?01:05
gnarfaceyanmaani: because it would literally cost more than it is worth.01:05
gnarfaceyanmaani: it's not a "can't" it's a "won't, that's stupid"01:05
stovepipeyanmaani: filesystems are whever theyre put01:05
stovepipei assume you mean how distros default to a single partition install for end users01:05
stovepipesee my above comment01:05
yanmaaniI have /home on a separate part. Do many people hae separate /usr ?01:06
gnarfaceyanmaani: yea.  it's actually strongly recommended for security.01:06
stovepipelots01:06
stovepipethe point is to have / on a separate partition01:06
stovepipewhich ands up with all that other stuff01:06
gnarfaceyanmaani: i'd recommend separate partitions for at least:  /home, /usr, /tmp, /var, and /01:06
stovepipeand var gets written al ot01:06
stovepipeso does /usr01:06
stovepipeand /etc01:06
stovepipeif anyone tries to take /etc away from me i will hunt them down personally01:07
stovepipei didnt mean /etc needs a separate partition01:07
stovepipejust questioning why it exists makes me nervous01:08
gnarfaceyea, that gets back to my advice of "just use it until you like it"01:08
stovepipegives me that binary registry kind of feeling01:08
stovepipePC-BSD was doing that01:08
stovepipemystery undocumented binary registries and processes01:09
gnarfaceyanmaani: for what it's worth, most of what you're complaining about, i remember having the same arguments against it when i was new.  literally do what i did, and just stare at it until you like it.01:09
gnarfaceyanmaani: that's the simplest advice i can give you that will lead you to the truth.  actually putting it in words would probably take me years.01:10
gnarfaceyanmaani: (similar to the amount of time it would take to change)01:10
stovepipelinux on the desktop, any day now!01:10
stovepipei dont think that means what they think it means heh01:11
stovepipelinux was my main workstation for decades until i switched it to freebsd in anger01:12
SuaveDandyWhat locale should be the default? Is it C. UTF-8? US? My language?01:12
stovepipethen devuan made me hate it less01:12
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: you probably want the right one for whatever language you've set it to, yes, but i would still also include utf8 and iso-8859-1 to keep buggy improperly internationalized stuff from crashing on you unexpectedly01:13
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: (though i haven't seen such stuff in a while here, i also haven't tested extensively so ymmv)01:14
stovepipei wonder if there are secret agents spreading pro-systemd propaganda around IRC01:14
* gnarface doesn't wonder01:15
stovepipesystemd wants to take over the whole filesystem01:16
SuaveDandyru_RU doesn't have ISO-8859-1. It has… ISO-8859-5…01:16
stovepipeno more /home or /usr or /etc01:16
SuaveDandyWhatever that is.01:16
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: oh, you're RU? yea, you actually probably want the extended latin character set too01:17
SuaveDandySECRET AGENT: You better use Systemd, dawg. We don't want any casualties.01:17
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: don't omit latin1 though.  broken programs that aren't properly internationalized will often fall back to iso-8859-1 instead of C01:17
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: (just don't make latin1 your default - though i'm not sure it even would matter in your case)01:18
unixbsdwhich fs on devuan can support bad blocks? zfs only ? ext2 with newfs_ext2fs -c ? more fs?01:18
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: and if you have to take data from windows systems you might find a use of including the cp1215 and cp1212 or whatever they're called (there's 2-3 windows-specific variations of latin1)01:19
gnarfaceunixbsd: i thought they all did.  i guess i'm not sure but at least ext2, ext3 and ext4 for sure01:19
SuaveDandyDon't see Latin1. I see only lt_LT.01:19
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: sorry. i'm being lazy and omitting data i thought you already had.  "Latin1" == "ISO-8859-1"01:20
fsmithredlt Lithuanian01:20
fsmithredor Latvian01:20
SuaveDandyIs it the en_EN one?01:20
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: i think it's labeled en_US but double check01:21
SuaveDandyOh, sorry.01:21
fsmithredyeah, en_US01:21
SuaveDandyen_US01:21
fsmithredor en_GB01:21
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859#The_parts_of_ISO/IEC_885901:21
SuaveDandySilly me. Brain coockoogaga. Can barely remember things now.01:21
unixbsdxfs, btrfs, jfs, and ufs2/ffs have no bad sector list. Well only ext2 and ext4, with mkfs.ext4 -c  /dev/x  has a bad sector list.01:22
SuaveDandyAnd say what I didn't mean.01:22
unixbsdbest is really to use Zfs, but well, there is no choice zfs is the best. however, it uses fuse, which is very unreliable.01:22
gnarfaceunixbsd: yea the zfs integration isn't as good as with bsd01:22
masonunixbsd: ZFS doesn't use fuse for the last decade or so.01:24
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: don't forget to add some russian character sets.  most the english utf8 ones don't enclude a full set of glyphs, so they won't crash your shit but you'd still probably get empty squares in place of characters01:24
unixbsdbit depressing. ... ext4 can check bad sectors but the GPL will make it out of use for servers on bsd, ext4 is maybe more reliable than ufs2. zfs usees all the memory of your system. Open a firefox and use zfs and you will work next day or next month, after waiting hours.01:24
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: sorry *russian fonts* to be clear01:24
gnarfaceunixbsd: try XFS?  it's not fancy but it's old and fast :)01:25
unixbsdxfs has no bad block check before "format".  if you get a bad block your disk is "dead" using xfs.01:25
SuaveDandyShould I use ru_RU or ru_RU.UTF-8 as the default? I suppose ru_RU is the ISO-1889-5 one.01:26
unixbsdjfs is even worse when a bad block occurs. this I remember one hour at each boot using jfs for one single sector.01:26
SuaveDandyDo you guys choose locals too or just install all of them?01:27
unixbsdmason: mkfs.zfs ?01:27
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: i choose01:27
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: these days, i would say ru_RU.UTF-8 is probably the better choice, but that's based only on the fact my advice for en_US.UTF-8 changed the same way a couple years ago01:28
SuaveDandyAh.01:28
SuaveDandyOkay.01:28
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: with en_US.UTF-8, you can trust that it is 100% a superset of en_US.  with ru_RU maybe it is only 99% so i don't know for sure.01:28
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: it should be safe to pick everything you *might* need01:29
SuaveDandyFor the future: installing OpenRC right after debootstrapping was a bad idea.01:34
gnarfacewhat happened?01:35
SuaveDandyDEVUAN: YOU SHOULD REBOOT IMMEDIATELY!!01:35
unixbsdi love openrc01:35
gnarfacehah.  oh01:35
unixbsdopenrc is way better than default devuan rc01:35
SuaveDandyProbably that's why the locales failed to install before.01:36
SuaveDandyI mean, to set up.01:37
SuaveDandyThe package itself got installed.01:37
SuaveDandyMaybe --include and --exclude did nothing wrong.01:37
SuaveDandyI'll try again. After I'll get some sleep. Again.01:38
unixbsdhow to fix bad sectors on linux ext4 on a disk 4tb with data on it?01:40
Hurgotronfsck.ext4 ?01:41
unixbsddoes it save and remove them onto a blacklist of dead sectors???01:41
Hurgotronwell, if the media is not braindead it should relocate the bad sectors on its own...01:43
Hurgotronotherweise, well, there's badblocks and you can feed the list to mkfs.ext4 - but that would be destructive01:44
gnarfaceunixbsd: best you read the manpage about fsck.ext4 or badblocks itself (or better yet; both) but i think the idea is something like a linear text file of bad block sector numbers gets generated and you pass it as a mount option01:44
gnarfaceunixbsd: they recommend not running badblocks directly as mkfs.ext4 can call badblocks for you01:45
gnarfaceunixbsd: (note that it does not unless you specifically tell it to though, so read the man page for details)01:46
gnarfaceunixbsd: (and plan 1-2 days in advance.  it's gonna take a while)01:47
gnarfaceunixbsd: calling badblocks directly just generates the raw list01:47
unixbsdI read on superuser.com that fsck.ext4 -cc /dev/sdb1 ; fsck.ext4 -cc /dev/sdb2 will fix it... read and write. so I tried. let's wait one or two days...01:48
unixbsdin comparison, unix has not such a feature.. the bsd ufs has not bad block check. this is a good advantage for end users for daily home usage.01:49
gnarfaceyou might have wanted to set it to output some sort of progress meter but yea that should do it01:49
Hurgotronlooks good, I didn't know that option yet.01:49
HurgotronOTOH, I would probably not trust damaged media like that too much.01:50
unixbsdthe all trick is here: mkfs.ext4 -c /dev/sdX   to create  and regularly: mkfs.ext4 -cc /dev/sdX.01:50
gnarfaceunixbsd: in theory the badblocks test is filesystem agnostic, so if there were a way to omit a list of blocks from the ufs filesystem you could still pass the list generated by badblocks assuming you had set the right block size01:50
unixbsdI had in the past notebooks over 20 to 30 years with bad blocks. nothing changed, ;)01:51
unixbsdfear can explain all what developers believe and how they can react with their software. ;) dump your pc, but well, it still works today.01:51
gnarfaceyea, sometimes once a few bad blocks appear they start growing like fungus.  but sometimes they don't, too.01:52
SuaveDandymason: ZFS uses half the RAM. What if I'll have lots of opened programs?01:52
unixbsdzfs will screw whole ram indeed. you cannot run it on a ARM board for sure.01:52
gnarfacehehe, nonetheless i see pine64 people are trying anyway :)01:52
SuaveDandyI have 8 gigs.01:53
Hurgotronthere are tuning options for zfs. On FreeBSD, it ate *all* my RAM before tuning.01:53
Hurgotron(and that was 64GB)01:53
unixbsdwould be faster to run ext401:53
gnarfaceyea i hear a lot that you don't really want zfs running on your desktops/laptops; you want it running on the file server they get backed up to01:53
masonSuaveDandy: ARC gets out of the way pretty fast. I've run ZFS on 1g systems unproblematically.01:54
SuaveDandyAh…01:54
unixbsdat the end, we have no single good FS.01:54
masonSuaveDandy: You can even run it on an ARM board.01:54
unixbsdmaybe ntfs is the key of success <- bad joke.01:54
masonIn ZFS, we have a good general-purpose FS.01:54
gnarfacentfs doesn't even work right in wine01:54
SuaveDandySome people legit think that it's good that Windows uses NTFS instead of Ext4.01:55
gnarfacei think you can actually use ext4 on windows now01:55
SuaveDandySay that "it's more optimized for it" or something.01:55
SuaveDandyI have no idea how you can do that.01:56
SuaveDandyYou can use BtrFS on ReactOS.01:56
gnarfacethere's a 3rd party ext4 driver for windows01:56
unixbsdI tried openbsd A6 but it cannot work long with heavy duty. it fails and crash due to lack of inodes. so no file server in that direction. likely freebsd and linux (sure with ext4) might be best approach for bsd/linux families.01:56
gnarfacei used it once01:56
SuaveDandyI wonder. Debian is pretty stable. And even then BtrFS is considered unstable on it.01:57
unixbsdsystemd? no no01:57
masonSuaveDandy: BtrFS will get better. Fedora's picking it up, so it'll get a lot of use.01:57
SuaveDandySeems like BtrFS is lighter and doesn't eat that much RAM.01:57
masonThe problem there is that you have to chase the bleeding edge kernel for BtrFS fixes. ZFS is developed separately, decoupled from the upstream kernel, and this is a huge win.01:58
unixbsdbtrfs has no bad block check and fix. ... risky, too risky.01:58
HurgotronI prefer to let the others do the testing :)01:58
masonWhen BtrFS becomes reliable it'll be an awfully good thing.01:58
unixbsdwithout bad block, soon or later, defect occurs, or just use raid or similar01:59
SuaveDandyRaid Shadow Legends.01:59
unixbsdGood night.02:01
SuaveDandyGood night.02:01
masono/02:03
SuaveDandyDo Pine64 guys put ZFS on postmarket or something?02:03
SuaveDandyMobian?02:03
SuaveDandyUBports?02:03
SuaveDandymason: Does your installation script work with LUKS?02:06
masonSuaveDandy: Yeah, either LUKS or native ZFS encryption. I use LUKS myself.02:06
SuaveDandyWhy not native?02:06
masonSuaveDandy: Remember that the GRUB install part is hosed and requires a manual GRUB install to finish it up.02:06
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: what?  no i don't think i've heard of it being the default on any shipped OSes, but i'm also aware there's more people rolling their own distros for pine64 hardware then there are major distros02:07
masonSuaveDandy: Native ZFS encryption only has one key. LUKS1 has four, LUKS2 has like 20 or something. Native won't let you send to an unencrypted pool. LUKS, you can stream to whatever you need.02:07
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: i just recalled seeing talk about it02:07
masonI need to put some time into the script and clean it up, but I've got a ton of other projects pressing, some for Devuan.02:08
gnarfaces/then/than/02:08
masonAnyway, g'night all, or bbl at any rate. o/02:08
SuaveDandySo if I have one drive, LUKS is optimal?02:08
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: nobody is shipping a distro with a read-only ext2 /boot and a xfs /, but i know that works too :)02:08
masonSuaveDandy: FWIW, I know people that use and love native ZFS encryption, so it's entirely up to you what you use.02:08
masonbbl02:09
SuaveDandyI… can't really see much difference.02:09
SuaveDandyHmm.02:09
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: sometimes the only real way to decide what matters is to experience it for yourself02:10
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: most this stuff has so many alternatives because there's no one good answer for everyone02:11
SuaveDandyZFS also acts as LVM. Does that mean that it'll add more overhead?02:11
gnarfaceas i understand it, you would need LVM anyway to do encryption outside of zfs native encryption02:12
gnarfaceso in your case, no02:12
gnarfacesum of 002:12
gnarfaceactually my guess is it would be lighter slightly than adding LVM but also be missing some features in exchange, but i don't actually know02:12
SuaveDandyNot really. You can easily install LUKS over root.02:13
SuaveDandyLVM is redundant.02:13
SuaveDandyDid that before. Pretty easy and lightweight.02:13
gnarfacemaybe in your case.  i can't say for sure if it is for every case.  it's sure redundant to my use case but that's because my use case includes expert manual physical volume management02:13
SuaveDandyNot on Debian but…02:14
gnarfaceit would be easy to try both and run some benchmarks with bonnie++02:14
SuaveDandyI did manage to set it up on Void.02:14
gnarface(if you care enough to know)02:14
gnarfacethough nobody using LVM really complains about the performance overhead02:15
gnarfaceso my guess is the resultant difference is trivial either way02:15
gnarfacecomputers are fast these days man02:15
gnarfaceyour hardware specs are a big factor in the best choice here02:15
SuaveDandyI mean, for me it's either ZFS with native encryption or F2FS with LUKS on top.02:16
gnarfacesome of these things were different 20 years ago but if you're running 20 year old hardware...02:16
gnarfacehmmm, that actually would be an interesting benchmark02:17
gnarfaceyes, now that i think more about it, i realize you must try both, for science!02:18
SuaveDandyBut I haven't even set up my system yet.02:19
gnarfacehehe, i know.  you're definitely putting the cart before the horse, i did mention that to yesterday though already.02:19
gnarfaceto you*02:19
SuaveDandyStill thinking if I should go with Sway or Awesome.02:19
gnarfacei have no experience with either02:19
gnarfacei still think everyone should try Enlightenment02:20
SuaveDandySway as in Wayland. Some people say it's awesome. Some people say it breaks all the time.02:20
gnarfaceafaik Enlightenment also targets Wayland but i haven't tried it that way02:21
SuaveDandyIs Enlightenment good at tiling?02:21
gnarfacei have never tried it, but i do know it does have a tiling mode you can enable02:21
gnarfacealso has a mobile mode which is different from that i think?02:22
SuaveDandyI'm just searching for a noob-friendly tiling WM. I know that if I'll go with Xmonad or BSPWM I'll be stuck for a month or two.02:22
gnarfaceEnlightenment has a boatload of options actually, but they're all mouse-accessible.  no manual config file editing necessary... i'm not sure if that counts as more or less noob-friendly02:23
SuaveDandyI always thought GNOME would be neato for mobile. But for some reason Purism developed Phosh on top of it.02:23
gnarfacei like enlightenment for how extremely flexible it is, but i don't really do the "tiling" thing02:25
gnarfacei just know it's the leading WM for "do what i want"02:25
SuaveDandyMouse-accessible? Not necessarily. I'm sure every noob can do nmcli connect wifi in the CLI.02:25
SuaveDandy*nmcli device wifi connect02:25
gnarfacebut Enlightenment uses connman02:25
SuaveDandyIt's a pretty simple command.02:26
SuaveDandyIsn't conman old?02:26
gnarfaceshit man, do you have any idea of where this software came from?02:26
gnarfaceunix is old02:26
gnarfacelol02:26
gnarfaceit's all old as the hills02:26
SuaveDandyI mean, fair enough.02:26
SuaveDandyI was more about it being harder to use.02:27
gnarfaceuh, raster covered this recently - paraphrasing here but i think it was roughly "connman was the only one that had the features to be fully integrated into the enlightenment UI"02:27
SuaveDandyAs in, using verbose commands, scripting.02:27
SuaveDandyProgramming language like Perl or something.02:28
gnarfacenah... i mean, i'm not using it, but i assume it's a actual GUI tool02:28
SuaveDandyDoes it have CLI?02:28
gnarfaceoh!02:28
gnarfacei'm looking at the package list now, it's actually in several packages02:29
gnarfacethere is a cli and several guis apparently02:29
gnarfaceer... no, just a gtk one and some related stuff02:29
gnarfaceSuaveDandy: run this: apt-cache search ^connm02:29
SuaveDandyBecause after I used nmcli device wifi connect <network> password <password>, I didn't want to go back.02:30
SuaveDandyIt's so short.02:30
SuaveDandyAnd so quick.02:30
gnarfacehmmm.  you're clear that Enlightenment won't stop you from doing that, right?02:30
gnarfacei still edit the /etc/network/interfaces file directly.  i didn't even install connman02:30
SuaveDandyDoesn't it require conman?02:30
gnarfaceno, it just can use it if it is present02:31
* Xenguy likes the name...02:31
SuaveDandyConsole Man.02:31
gnarfaceoptional dependency, not a requirement02:31
SuaveDandyNew DC superhero.02:31
gnarfaceit's "Connection Manager" i think02:31
Xenguyheh02:31
XenguyAs long as he's a superhero02:31
SuaveDandyHe became a superhero after breathing in his granddad's terminal gas.02:32
XenguyThere must be an easier way02:32
XenguyMaybe it's not easy being a superhero02:32
SuaveDandyNow he can open terminal windows everywhere. On the wall, on the ceiling.02:32
SuaveDandyOpening a terminal window. In a window.02:33
SuaveDandyWindowception.02:33
* Xenguy has to hit F12 ...02:33
SuaveDandyNoone got my Safespace reference.02:35
SuaveDandyOh, wait. Safespace was from Marvel.02:36
SuaveDandyEh, whatever.02:36
SuaveDandyI'm going to bed. Bye.02:37
Xenguynite02:38
yanmaaniwhere do coredumps go?04:06
yanmaaniarch wiki only talks about systemd04:06
gnarfaceprobably /tmp/ somewhere04:07
gnarfaceit depends on the program04:08
yanmaaniwhen it just says 'Segmentation fault: core dumped'?04:08
gnarfaceoh, they're not actually saved anywhere by default04:08
gnarfacei dont' think04:08
gnarfacebut if it's something on Steam, look in /tmp/dumps/04:09
gnarfaceif it's something else, maybe /tmp/.[something owned by your user]04:10
gnarfacemake sure to "ls -la"04:10
gnarfacethere's probably some way to uh... force it to go somewhere specific, but embarrassingly, i don't know how04:11
gnarfaceif the program has a config directory in your home directory, look there too04:13
yanmaaninope :/04:13
yanmaanioh well04:13
gnarfaceoh04:13
gnarfacehmm....04:13
gnarfacecheck /var/crash/04:13
yanmaaniempty04:15
yanmaanidoesn't exist04:15
furrywolfthey don't dump to the current directory anymore?04:16
gnarfacesome further searching suggests you might need to provide a pattern to the kernel04:17
yanmaaniright, whatever04:17
yanmaanidon't worry04:17
gnarface /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern04:18
gnarfacecheck Documentation/sysctl/kernel.txt, see if that does what you want04:18
gnarfacebest i can do for ya, sorry04:18
gnarfaceyou can like, give it a command that pipes to a file at an arbitrary location04:19
gnarfacesomething like that04:19
* furrywolf remembers them showing up in the current directory, but that may now be outdated...04:20
* gnarface and then he asked himself "is there a debian package for that?"04:21
gnarfacecorekeeper - enable core files and report crashes to the sysadmin04:21
gnarfacebehold!04:21
gnarfaceyanmaani: ^^^^04:21
gnarface(i assume if there's one there might be others)04:22
gnarfacehmmm, though, to furrywolf's point... the kernel documentation for 5.8 seems to say the default should indeed be the current directory, a file named core.[PID], i think04:27
gnarfaceit's just a sysctl setting any distro could change, but the default for me matches the documentation04:27
gnarface(on ceres)04:27
furrywolfyeah, that's what I remember, since like...  forever.  heh.04:28
gnarfaceit also seems like you might need to change a ulimit though now that i'm looking more04:29
gnarfacebut one would assume that package takes care of all this for you04:30
furrywolfspeaking of kernel things...  I get these once or twice a day:  [1926221.038880] do_IRQ: 3.38 No irq handler for vector04:36
furrywolfthe number changes, for example, the last one before this one was [1766333.949632] do_IRQ: 3.40 No irq handler for vector04:38
gnarfacehmmm04:38
gnarfacedo you have irqbalance installed?04:38
furrywolfand looks like it's actually every couple days, less often than I thought.04:38
furrywolf 2189 ?        Ss     1:10 /usr/sbin/irqbalance --pid=/var/run/irqbalance.pid04:38
gnarfaceis it an old version? i vaguely recall a bug about this04:39
furrywolfnothing seems to not working...  but it fucking _beeps_ every time one happens!  heh04:39
gnarfaceheh04:39
furrywolfVersion: 1.1.0-2.304:39
gnarfacewell ceres is on 1.704:39
gnarfacenot that you might not be able to change some bios settings or the physical device order (if it's cards causing it) instead04:40
gnarfaceit's probably something that retries fairly quickly and won't go out to lunch as long as it doesn't fail to get a response twice in a row04:41
gnarfacebut it does also seem like something that should not be happening in the first place04:41
furrywolfit's a laptop.04:41
furrywolfthere's no changing anything.  :)04:42
gnarfaceoh04:42
gnarfacehmmm04:42
furrywolfif I could at least make it not beep, that would be enough.  :P04:43
gnarfaceheh04:43
gnarfaceno beep control in alsamixer or the bios?04:43
furrywolfit's a hardware beep, not an alsa beep04:43
gnarfaceon laptops sometimes that's the same thing04:44
gnarfacesometimes there's even a "beep" control in the alsamixer panel04:44
gnarfacei see that's the ascii version of irqbalance04:44
gnarfacehave you tried a beowulf livecd on this?04:44
furrywolfno04:45
gnarfaceit's fully updated though?04:45
gnarfacenewest kernel too?04:45
furrywolfI plan on upgrading to beowulf after I get a better internet connection...  haven't had the bandwidth lately to do things like that.04:45
furrywolf4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.67-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1 (2019-09-30) x86_64 GNU/Linux04:45
gnarfaceif you still have pending updates, first thing i would check is if it's a newer version of something04:46
furrywolfirqbalance is already the newest version (1.1.0-2.3).04:47
gnarfacehmmm04:47
gnarfacefurrywolf: google tells me you should try appending this to your kernel command-line: pci=nomsi,noaer04:48
gnarfacefurrywolf: it's possible that just suppresses errors rather than dealing with the problem though04:49
furrywolfI can finally get cable internet, but need to do some tree work before they run the drop...  and it needs to be done by a tree company, which requires spare mone...04:49
furrywolfmoney04:49
gnarfacesee here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10584704:49
furrywolfheh, the last post compares it to unplugging your car's check engine light, not fixing the problem.  :P04:51
gnarfaceyea nomsi is ... disabling msi, which i think might be basically an entire class of pci hardware error handling04:52
furrywolfI guess I should wait until I can upgrade to beowulf and see if it goes away on its own04:53
gnarfacebut the bios might also let you handle irqs manually... maybe you could force it not to share any and this could go away04:54
gnarfacethat actually makes me question other bios settings related to that04:54
gnarfacelike what the setting is for "PnP OS"04:55
gnarface(if furnished)04:55
furrywolfI haven't seen that setting in like two decades.  lol04:55
gnarfacefurrywolf: try: xset b 0 0 004:57
gnarfacemaybe that'll disable the bell while you're in X anyway04:57
gnarfaceworth a try04:57
furrywolfI don't want to entirely disable it, just make the kernel not try to beep for errors...  also, it doesn't beep for any other errors, just that one.  lol04:58
gnarfacethat xset command would disable the beep, not the error04:58
gnarfacethe "0 0 0" is volume, pitch, duration04:59
gnarfaceso you could also significantly change it to something less unpleasant instead04:59
gnarfaceor you could just try to blacklist the pcspkr module04:59
gnarfacebut like i said, for laptops that often doesn't help04:59
gnarfacethere's some way it can fail over to alsa i think?05:01
gnarfacemaybe driver dependent05:01
gnarface(like, even if the alsamixer panel doesn't expose a control for the beep)05:01
gnarfaceit would all be bios dependent in a laptop, and i've seen some whack laptop bioses05:02
* furrywolf is googling for some option to make the kernel not beep on errors, not finding one. odd...05:04
gnarfacei vaguely recall there's some alsa thing worth checking but i can't remember exactly05:10
gnarfacesomething other than the pcspkr module i though05:10
gnarfacebut maybe just another name for it05:10
gnarfacei thought*05:10
furrywolfI don't want to disable all beeps...  just the kernel beeping on errors.05:10
gnarfacehmm, right05:10
gnarfacebuild option?05:10
furrywolfI think "live with it until I can upgrade to beowulf and see if it's still a problem" is the likely option.05:11
unixbsdon devuan, how to recompile e2fsprogs from source using apt-get?08:19
rennjhttps://wiki.debian.org/BuildingTutorial08:39
rennjapt-get source the-package08:39
rennj   apt-get build-dep the-package08:39
rennjthen the compile part..08:39
flingHow to run /bin/bash in screen by the default? It is running /bit/sh instead.09:04
DPAfling: The shell used by programs is usually determined by the SHELL environment variable, which is usually set when logging in, to the users default shell, which is defined in the passwd database.10:09
DPATo just set the shell temporarely for a program, just set the env variable like so "SHELL=/bin/bash screen". To change the users default shell, use "usermod --shell /bin/bash username".10:09
DPASome programs also have an option to specify the shell to use.10:09
flingDPA: usermod --shell /bin/bash root10:22
flingusermod: no changes10:22
flingDPA: because I already used chsh10:22
flingthis works though -> SHELL=/bin/bash screen10:22
flingnot sure where is this $SHELL variable being set htttt10:22
rennjits set based on what /etc/passwd has for the user account...hence the usermod command trying to change root shells..heh10:42
flingrennj: but it is set to /etc/sh somehow instead10:44
rennjyeah DPA already said it10:49
rennjvipw, vigr - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-group file if dont like usermod and such10:50
rennjyou see what shells you have installed on system with cat /etc/shells10:51
rennjand screen has the -s option10:55
rennjscreen -s bash10:55
rennj-s shell      Shell to execute rather than $SHELL.10:56
rennjecho $SHELL;screen -s bash...doesnt matter10:56
DPAIt seams the shell screen uses can also be set in ~/.screenrc11:01
flingbut I just want the default shell to be used by the default11:06
flingI don't want screen to use /bin/sh by the default when an user has /bin/bash set11:07
DPAfling: Normally, it shouldn't (unless the setting was changed after the user logged in in the current session.)11:13
DPAYou'll have to to search for what overrides sets SHELL on your system.11:13
DPAMaybe check if you see anything suspicous using "grep -r /etc/environment /etc/environment.d /etc/profile /etc/profile.d /etc/security/pam_env.conf"11:13
DPAIf there is nothing, maybe check the users .pam_environment, .profile, .bashrc, etc.11:13
DPAs/grep -r/grep -r SHELL /11:14
flinghmm can't find anything11:16
DPAfling: And the shell really is set correctly? "getent passwd $(id -u) | cut -d ':' -f 7"11:19
flingDPA: it says /bin/bash11:20
flingno shell set in /etc/screenrc11:20
flingSHELL is /bin/bash outside of screen11:20
flingand it is /bin/sh inside :D11:21
rennjls -al /bin/sh is link to bash?11:21
flingrennj: to dash11:21
DPAThat's odd, I mean "SHELL=/bin/bash screen" worked after all. Maybe it's somehow set as unexported variable?11:24
DPAtr '\0' '\n' </proc/$$/environ | grep SHELL11:24
rennjhttps://wiki.debian.org/Shell11:24
rennjwell debian says so11:24
rennjA non-interactive shell is used to execute system scripts or scripts that use #!/bin/sh shebang.11:25
rennjDebian uses Dash as the default non-interactive shell.11:25
flingDPA: empty11:25
flingexport SHELL=/bin/bash11:26
fling^ running this before starting screen helps11:26
flingsomething fishy going on11:27
DPAThis is very odd. How did you login? TTY (login), ssh, su -, ?11:28
rennjperhaps try a new useraccount..and see if it general account creation or something specific that users home dot files11:28
flingDPA: lxc exec my-devuan-container bash11:32
rennjfix your container profile and you wont have to exec bash once its up11:42
DPAlxc probably unsets some environment variables before starting bash, and just starting bash (even if done as login shell) isn't the same as a full login. You'll have to set the shell somewhere.11:54
DPAOr use sudo or su - or something like that for a more complete login11:56
rennj       --mode="auto"      Override the terminal mode (auto, interactive or non-interactive)`12:00
rennjyeah lxc-exec12:00
DPAHow is Chimaera comming along? Is it save to use?12:22
DPAAlso, someone should probably update https://devuan.org/os/releases, some stuff like "Once Beowulf is officially released" is a bit outdated...12:24
WonkaIs already someone working on libelogind0 >= 246? Asking for wireshark-common...13:57
yann-kaeligHi. I can not be sure, but it look very weird that openssh-server installation in Devuan need 97 packages as deps14:00
yann-kaeligfrom a minimal netinstall iso, with only devuan base softwares14:00
yann-kaeligwhy do I need elogind, x11-common for opennsh-server ?14:01
r3boot2114:02
xinomiloit doesn't, those are recommends.14:02
xinomiloWonka : https://github.com/elogind/elogind/issues/17014:03
yann-kaeligtehre is cetainly something wrong because I have now, two VM one with debina and one with devuan, on debain I don't need x11-common, adwaita icons etc... for openssh-server14:03
yann-kaeligboth from a netinstall minimal14:04
yann-kaeligit's not recommended it's 97 pacakges that wil be installed14:05
DPAyann-kaelig: Even if you add --no-install-recommends to the apt-get install command?14:06
SuaveDandyHello. Should I install elogind?14:10
xinomilocould be the installer option for ssh server, that adds recommends packages too. not sure, haven't tested installation in a while14:11
xinomilosometimes i used debfoster after installation, to clear out anything not needed..14:12
yann-kaeligDPA: no, with this option the number now look better, 3 packages will be installed14:12
yann-kaeligThat really weird, do I need to use all the time this option ?14:13
xinomilono, you can add it permanently in apt14:14
xinomiloapt.conf : APT::Install-Recommends "false";14:15
SuaveDandyelogind seems to not be able to manage ACPI signals. For that there's acpi-support.14:15
SuaveDandyDoes it do something else?14:16
SuaveDandyDo Wayland/Xorg need that?14:16
yann-kaeligxinomilo: ok, thx. But in my opinion there is something wrong somewhere. I should not have to reconfigure a fresh installation. I do not see this option somewhere in the deban /etc/apt/apt.conf.d directory, and by default I do not need to use this option to get a minimal deps for openssh-server14:22
DPAyann-kaelig: The elogind may get pulled in by the libsystemd dependency of ssh-server. There can sometimes be things unexpectedly missing if it's used, like language packs,14:26
DPAsome backends of programs, and other technically not really needed stuff. The option is usually not a problem on a server, but can be for users who just want to use desktop14:26
DPAapplications with all possible features working and without installing those components manually.14:26
DPA* There can sometimes be things unexpectedly missing if --no-install-recommends is used14:28
yann-kaeligI understand, but I do not understand why on Debian I do not use this option and openssh-server is installed , from my point of view, in a right way.  I can not be really agree with your point of view, because manually means using apt-get install in any case, but sure the user will have to write a little more to install all the stuff14:35
yann-kaeligWell, thx for the help, hope this option is not an issue for server use case14:38
flingHow to install lxd properly?14:43
DPAyann-kaelig: Installing the whole desktop environment is as simple as just installing task-xfce-desktop, task-kde-desktop, task-cinnamon-desktop, task-lxqt-desktop14:43
DPAor task-mate-desktop. Alternatively, you can also use just task-desktop and get whatever's the default.14:43
yann-kaeligI want to say that  I never understand why a lot of things work in the negative or decreasingly instead by the positive and increasingly.14:50
masonfling: Haven't seen anyone mention this option yet. In .screenrc:  shell -bash15:57
flingmason: sure but I just wanted to figure out what is going on wrong16:06
gast0nHi, someone is having problems with the weather widget in xfce, to get the weather forecast16:51
SuaveDandyOkay, I gave up on the ZFS installation.17:41
SuaveDandyThis is impossible.17:41
Hurgotron(I used FreeBSD for it, but that's probably not helpful)17:43
SuaveDandyfsmithred: Is it possible to set up an encrypted boot with the file system not included on the ISO?17:46
masonSuaveDandy: Ah, sorry to hear it. If you want help working through whatever bit you I'd help.17:50
masonI can say for sure it's not impossible, as all the systems near me right now do it. But it's sure not a "productized" experience.17:51
SuaveDandyWhen I tried to install zfs-initramfs on a chrooted system, it complained that I don't have zfsutils-linux. I've installed zfs-dkms but it resulted in a bunch of errors.17:53
SuaveDandyHere. https://tinyurl.com/yy3yczlo17:54
masonSuaveDandy: There are two different ways to go about it. You use custom packages or the DKMS stuff. If DKMS, you want to use the one from backports.17:54
masonThat 404s for me, although it points into openzfs.github.io17:55
masonAnyway, if it's one of rlaager's guides, they don't quite do what I like to do in several respects;17:56
SuaveDandyThere. https://tinyurl.com/y9bjohwg17:56
bz2SSuaveDandy: I setup zfs per a guide on dev1galaxy.org (though w/out encryption)17:57
bz2Shttps://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=250617:57
fsmithredSuaveDandy, I don't understand your question about "file system not included on the iso"17:57
SuaveDandyIsn't it for legacy boot?17:57
bz2Sthe problem with zfs, is that upgrade requires compiling. very slow.17:57
SuaveDandyAs in, downloaded through APT.17:57
SuaveDandyLike F2FS.17:57
masonbz2S: That's only if you use the DKMS. Custom packages let you compile once and then just distribute the packages to your boxes.17:58
masonbz2S: This works fine in Devuan: https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Developer%20Resources/Custom%20Packages.html17:58
masonWhat's really necessary is for me (or someone) to clear a bunch of existing projects and learn how to integrate ZFS into the traditional Debian installer.17:59
masonIt's conceptually so similar to LVM that there isn't really a need for a new workflow, just behind the scenes stuff.17:59
specingSuaveDandy: why not btrfs?17:59
SuaveDandyIsn't it buggy?18:00
masonHe's probably not a gambler. =cough=18:00
bz2Smason: too much work for me, but it looks like a work around.18:00
masonBut seriously, having to chase the bleeding-edge Linux kernel for fixes is a little unfortunate.18:00
bz2Snext time i will use btrfs, personally18:01
masonbz2S: It'll be awesome when it's reliable enough to trust. Better for the world. Altogether good.18:02
masonFedora pushing it will help bring this about.18:02
masonAnyway, back to work for me.18:02
SuaveDandyIf I'll try installing again, I'll try to complete the installation without disk wiping and encryption.18:03
SuaveDandyBecause it takes so long and wears off my SSD.18:03
SuaveDandyHope it'll get going faster. Because the amount of typing I do to make that boot pool.18:04
SuaveDandyIt's a bunch of feature@'s.18:05
fsmithredI rarely bother to wipe before encrypting18:05
SuaveDandy12, to be precise.18:05
SuaveDandyBut security.18:05
fsmithredencryption provides security18:05
masonSuaveDandy: Oh, is it a bootpool/rootpool configuration? I wouldn't recommend that. Way more complexity than you want.18:06
masonAnd almost no gain at all.18:06
SuaveDandyReally? Damn.18:06
SuaveDandyThis guide is built around that.18:06
masonSuaveDandy: Stuffing kernel and initramfs into an ESP or into an MD-RAID1 /boot is just fine for this.18:06
SuaveDandyThat needs LUKS encryption, as far as I know.18:07
masonSuaveDandy: Yeah, that model started off with FreeBSD before they had a GELI-aware UEFI ZFS bootloader. It was not considered a good idea then and it went away as soon as their UEFI/ZFS bootloader learned GELI.18:07
SuaveDandyGRUB doesn't support the native encryption.18:07
fsmithredyou want /boot to be encrypted?18:07
SuaveDandyI actually would like ESP+ZFS.18:08
SuaveDandyI just don't know how to do this.18:08
masonSuaveDandy: The workstation I'm on right now has an ESP (one per disk, two disks) with GRUB, an MD-RAID1 /boot, and the rest of the system is LUKS/ZFS. Could just as easily be native-encrypted ZFS.18:08
fsmithredI don't think you can encrypt esp18:08
SuaveDandyESP+LUKS/ZFS.18:08
masonSuaveDandy: Pure ESP/ZFS, you can use the Linux kernel's EFI stub code and boot it directly.18:08
SuaveDandyI remember GRUB not supporting ZFS encryption.18:09
masonI ran that for a while, but then I centralized on what I use now, since I can deploy it on every system I've got - one of my systems won't handle four EFI boot variables at once, which I wanted for new0, new1, old0, old1 kernel entries.18:09
masonLet me see if I have notes.18:10
masonHrm, didn't keep them after I abandoned the model. Anyway, the trick was that you use efibootmgr as normal to point to the kernel, and then you use the little-used -u option to pass the kernel command line, which includes "root=ZFS=tank/ROOT?default" or whatever you need.18:12
SuaveDandyIs the setup more complicated than LUKS?18:14
masonOh, and you pass in the initramfs in -u too.18:14
masonUm, LUKS is a little more complicated than native encryption. It's just a bit more flexible when it's all running.18:14
masondoing example now18:16
SuaveDandyIs there a proper ZFS installation guide for Debian using ESP+encrypted ZFS?18:18
masonNo. My scripting is the closest I've seen. I'll write it out as docs someday.18:18
SuaveDandyGotta go. The veins on my only eye start popping off. Need to take a break.18:19
masonSuaveDandy: Here, this is about as boiled down as it gets: https://bpa.st/PLOQ18:20
SuaveDandyMirror? But I only use one drive.18:21
masonFine, half a sec.18:21
masonHere: https://bpa.st/24SA18:22
masonNot using at least a mirror, you don't get the self-healing benefits unless you use copies=2 or something, but that's not as good as a mirror in the event that you lose a whole drive.18:23
SuaveDandyWhat is a mirror?18:24
masonTwo disks. It's like an MD-RAID1, but the whole stripe (both disks) are read on each read to verify data integrity, whereas as soon as MD-RAID1 gets data from one drive it's done.18:24
masonYou can usually trust on-disk error correction, at least until you can't. :P18:25
SuaveDandyGotta go.18:25
SuaveDandyWill be right back.18:25
masonI might go have lunch, but I'll be back after that.18:25
fsmithreda lot of disks no longer have error correction. (like WD Black, for instance)18:31
unixbsddo you know a FS that does fsck.XXX in a mounted status?19:42
unixbsdI tried fsck.xfs with xfs_repair and it cannot since it is mounted...19:42
DHEit can be done with a read-only mount, though you are expected to IMMEDIATELY reboot19:49
SuaveDandyI'm back.19:49
SuaveDandymason: So. Do I use the code you pasted with the installation guide?19:51
masonSuaveDandy: Oh, unsure. I didn't look through the guide. That was just an example of setting up a pool on LUKS vs with native encryption.19:51
masonThe other part with LUKS that I didn't think to post is that you want to populate /etc/crypttab so it does the right thing in your initramfs.19:52
SuaveDandyThe most difficult part I see now is putting GRUB to ESP and then setting it up to unlock ZFS-encrypted root.19:54
unixbsdit would be ideally a FS  that can be fix on the running hot mounted ... like google FS tech.19:55
unixbsdbtw, I install locally a devuan using XFS. Is there a way to download all *.deb of ASCII for AM64?19:57
unixbsdAMD6419:57
SuaveDandyWait… This ZFS root creation doesn't use a root pool?19:57
masonSuaveDandy: Just one pool.19:58
SuaveDandy"tank /dev/disk/by-partlabel/root019:58
SuaveDandyIt doesn't name it rpool or something.19:58
SuaveDandyIsn't the pool name mandatory?19:59
masonNo. You can use whatever name you want.19:59
masonTraditionally they're taken from the names of Matrix characters - tank, mouse, neo, trinity19:59
SuaveDandyAh, tank is the pool name.20:00
SuaveDandyI see.20:00
SuaveDandyAnd I thought it's a command.20:00
SuaveDandyNo Smith. Weird.20:00
masonThat'd work too. I just listed some. :)20:01
SuaveDandyHmm. You don't set normalization to formD?20:01
masonSuaveDandy: All my stuff here is Unix in some form. (Well. I guess MacOS is too, but there isn't any here.)20:03
masonI tend to think of formD as being a cross-platform thing.20:05
masonMaybe I'm missing something.20:05
SuaveDandydnodesize=auto20:09
SuaveDandyDev1 Galaxy doesn't seem to be working in Russia even without a DNS.20:12
SuaveDandyI don't know what is happening.20:13
SuaveDandyOkay, I can't find any instructions that take my situation into account.20:22
masonYa ne gavaroo parooski ochen horosho.20:32
mason(And I don't have a cyrillic layout.)20:32
SuaveDandyShtooooooooo?20:38
SuaveDandyWhat was that?20:38
mason"I don't speak Russian very well."20:38
SuaveDandyTo whom were you talking?20:39
masonYou'd just mentioned Russia.20:39
SuaveDandyТак точно.20:39
SuaveDandyDon't worry, English is my second language.20:39
SuaveDandyI'm more used to speaking English online.20:40
SuaveDandyI'm saying that I can't connect to dev1galaxy.org without a VPN.20:41
SuaveDandyAnd I have no idea why.20:41
mtnmanhelo20:41
SuaveDandyHi.20:41
mtnmanwhen run wicd-curses and connect to wifi, eth0 is brought down.  how can i ascertain what is causing this?20:42
SuaveDandyI speak Russian only with my friend on Discord. But that's about it.20:42
SuaveDandyI have to decide something about ZFS already.20:44
masonSuaveDandy: If you're not up for diving in, you can just use a standard ext or xfs and leave space at the end for ZFS, and then have /home or other data you really care about on it.20:53
SuaveDandyI'm thinking.20:54
fsmithredmtnman, I'm pretty sure wicd is causing that.20:54
Chain|Qhmm, I'm trying to update my ASCII setup, which hasn't run for a year almost (it's a temporary server, which runs for ~2 weeks per year for an event)20:55
Chain|Qbut it cannot reach packages.roundr.devuan.org during apt-get update20:55
fsmithredChain|Q, change to deb.devuan.org20:55
Chain|Qfsmithred: thanks20:56
fsmithredthat's the new round-robin20:56
SuaveDandymason: The weird thing is that the guide ( https://is.gd/Wcda5k ) doesn't specify that you should install zfs-dkms or zfsutils-linux after chrooting. It goes straight to zfs-initramfs. Why it does this I have no idea.21:00
Chain|Qfsmithred: yeah, it worked, thanks again21:00
SuaveDandyAlso, it seems to be catered for Systemd systems.21:00
masonSuaveDandy: Yeah, you need zfs-initramfs for it to do the right thing with the initramfs. That's odd.21:01
masonSuaveDandy: If I can get some time together I'll rewrite my script as a guidebook.21:01
SuaveDandyWhen installing GRUB there's a section where you configure a Systemd service.21:01
SuaveDandyThe conclusion: this guide is confusing.21:02
SuaveDandyThe guy from #zfsonlinux says "It's a guide for experts for an expert system."21:03
MinceRlol21:03
SuaveDandyAnd I don't quite get why experts even need a guide to begin with.21:03
masonheh21:03
MinceRthey like to think of themselves as "experts"21:04
SuaveDandyThat guy gives me headaches.21:04
masonSuaveDandy: I'm hoping to get a wiki up for the project soon, and I can make this cluster of things where I start on actual content.21:05
masonNone of it's particularly hard. What it is is *new* and it's all done in a not-quite-comfortable environment.21:05
SuaveDandyGladly, there were some cool guys too. I've even reported the issue in a guide. There used to be a line with mounting a dataset that is mounted automatically.21:06
SuaveDandyLike, why would you mount a mounted dataset? It's gone now, thankfully.21:06
SuaveDandyBut anyway. I'mma use a standard FS and try to learn how to work in a tiling WM.21:08
SuaveDandyYou guys seem to like XFS here.21:08
masonWe like everything. We're easy.21:08
SuaveDandyIt's apparently somehow different to Ext4.21:09
masonYeah, comes from Irix.21:10
specingSuaveDandy: btrfs is fairly easy to setup21:10
specingbut you have to do some reading as well21:10
SuaveDandyI mean, that's what I'm doing right now.21:11
SuaveDandyAgain, installing a minimal system with Refracta installer.21:11
SuaveDandyYou've got to do some reading for this.21:12
fsmithredSuaveDandy, if you want to try btrfs, this might help: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=325821:13
masonHere's an interesting comparitive piece: https://www.unixsheikh.com/articles/battle-testing-data-integrity-verification-with-zfs-btrfs-and-mdadm-dm-integrity.html21:13
SuaveDandyThe most important thing for me is not turning my system into Arch.21:14
fsmithredn4dir, YO!21:14
SuaveDandySo that's why I was hesitant.21:14
n4dirfsmithred: hi :-)21:14
fsmithredhow you doing, man? It's been ages.21:15
n4dirOh, it is ok, thanks. Hope you are fine too21:15
SuaveDandymdadm. I heard it getting mentioned in the ZFS-on-root guide.21:15
fsmithredyeah, good here21:15
n4dirso devuan and refracta all is good and well ?21:19
SuaveDandyHmmmm. Now I'm thinking.21:20
SuaveDandyIf I don't have multiple drives…21:20
SuaveDandy…does that mean I don't even need RAID?21:20
masonSuaveDandy: Correct. Closest you'll want to get is something like ZFS's copies=221:20
rennjraidz21:21
SuaveDandySo that means that all the possible bugs don't really affect me?21:21
fsmithredn4dir, yeah21:21
masonSuaveDandy: Oh, for BtrFS? Yeah, it puts you on safer ground.21:21
n4dirhere and there i hear of it, either in #linux or in #debian21:21
n4dirmainly devuan though21:21
rennjhttp://kbdone.com/zfs-basics/21:22
fsmithredyeah, we won't go away21:22
n4dir:-)21:22
SuaveDandyWhat about managing BtrFS? Is it easier than ZFS?21:22
rennjthe sun docs are better source but linux specific focus ..link21:22
masonSuaveDandy: There are a ton of good links at the bottom of the comparitive article I posted.21:23
SuaveDandyOh, sorry.21:23
SuaveDandyGimme a sec.21:23
n4dirfsmithred: for a long time i was away from the PC. Now i am pretty much back to debian, mainly as i started doing audio stuff. And the distros which offer such are usually debian/ubuntu.21:23
n4dirso systemd21:23
fsmithredouch21:23
fsmithredI do audio stuff in devuan21:24
n4diri see. Might be once i got the head in it i will be able to just use a distro and configure the audio stuff myself21:24
fsmithredrecording and radio broadcast21:24
fsmithredand no pulseaudio, thanks21:25
fsmithredchase me down when you're ready21:25
n4dirah, right, that too. Though most of the time i use jack21:25
fsmithredyes21:25
fsmithredI love jack (when it obeys)21:26
SuaveDandyfsmithred: Does your installer supports creating subvols?21:26
n4dirwhat are you doing? I fool with synthesizers (yoshimi/zynaddsubfx/helm(..), did quite a bit of midi in ardour, but right now am mainly in modular synthesizers (vcvrack). So no recording or such.21:26
SuaveDandyOr is it the same as with the Debian's?21:26
fsmithredSuaveDandy, no, you have to do that manually21:26
fsmithrednot the same as debian installer at all21:26
SuaveDandyAh.21:26
fsmithredread the thread I linked. It's about btrfs with debian-installer and with refractainstaller21:27
SuaveDandyI mean, as in, doesn't support subvols.21:27
n4dirnot that sure how much i need to configure for such. I think its only a certain kernel and one edit file in /etc/security21:27
SuaveDandyOhhhhhh.21:27
fsmithredyou don't need realtime kernel for audio these days21:27
SuaveDandyOh, guys. I'mma disconnect again. VPN.21:27
fsmithredoh21:28
SuaveDandyCan't access the forums without it.21:28
SuaveDandyOuch.21:28
fsmithredyou want me to copy it for you?21:28
fsmithredhang on21:28
SuaveDandyCopy? Where?21:28
rennjhttps://pthree.org/2012/12/04/zfs-administration-part-i-vdevs/21:28
rennjraidz1/2/3- Non-standard distributed parity-based software RAID levels.21:28
golinuxn4dir: OMG! Good to see you!!21:29
rennjSome zpool caveats21:29
SuaveDandyOh, my. Have no idea why I have such problems with the forum. Turned off AdGuard DNS. To no avail.21:29
n4dirgolinux: i read a comment of yours on forums.debian, which made me do "join" her21:29
n4dirabout our new savior, called B. Gates21:30
SuaveDandyBill Gates???21:31
fsmithredhttps://paste.debian.net/1163459/21:31
fsmithredSuaveDandy, ^^^ html file for you21:31
SuaveDandyOh.21:32
SuaveDandyThanks.21:32
golinuxI'm surprised it hasn't been deleted.  It was waiting for you to see it.  :)21:32
fsmithredyw21:32
n4dir:-)21:32
SuaveDandyNow I need to figure out how to view it on my phone.21:33
SuaveDandyDamn you, Android.21:33
golinuxSuaveDandy: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=142631&p=727257#p72725721:33
fsmithredoh shit. Normal procedure would be to save it as something.html21:33
fsmithredpm me your email address and I can send it that way21:33
MinceRi don't like XFS, but afaik the issue i had with it was since fixed21:33
MinceR(metadata-only journaling resulting in zero-filled files)21:34
SuaveDandyXFS is developed by RH. Must be a serious server-focused OS.21:35
SuaveDandymason: Don't worry. I'll save the link and use VPN to read it.21:36
luser977fsmithred: what do you use for audio? alsa?21:36
fsmithredalsa and jackd21:37
SuaveDandyThis one, right? https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=325821:37
luser977on ceres?21:37
fsmithredyes, 325821:37
SuaveDandyOh, tagged the wrong person.21:38
fsmithredceres??? um, no. Still on wheezy and jessie21:38
SuaveDandySorry, mason.21:38
luser977any pain? firefox alsa works?21:38
fsmithredno audio with ff if jack is in use21:38
n4dirnot here21:38
fsmithredbut that doesn't matter there21:38
SuaveDandyOkay. I'll be back after 8 hours or so.21:39
fsmithredI'll be ready for bed then21:39
n4dir:-)21:39
luser977ff 78.2 esr?21:39
SuaveDandyTimezones.21:39
fsmithredI think I'm still on 68 at home21:40
luser97778.2 is latest esr21:40
SuaveDandyNeed to go to bed earlier. My sleep cycle is screwed all over the place.21:41
masonBeowulf ships 68.1221:41
SuaveDandyOh, BTW.21:41
SuaveDandyOh, never mind. I'mma go to off-topic for a minute.21:41

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