Xenguy | I've been wanting to look at upgrading from Ascii to Beowulf, and so bought a new 2TB external drive yesterday so I could rsync a good backup before starting the upgrade... | 00:08 |
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Xenguy | rsync threw an error 'File too large' on a file that is around 5Gb in size. I checked the file system on the external drive (ED), and it is 'vfat' which has a file size limit of 4Gb AFAIK... | 00:10 |
frej00 | split it into 2 files? lol | 00:11 |
CorvusCorax | easy fix: reformat the external drive to ext4 | 00:11 |
frej00 | I would be too lazy to reformat and redo the whole thing | 00:11 |
CorvusCorax | on vfat you would also lose access rights and ownership | 00:11 |
golinux | Why did you buy a preformatted drive? | 00:11 |
Xenguy | That got me wondering what the best file system might be for an ED, to handle large file sizes, *and* maintain maximum compatibility with different OS's? | 00:11 |
CorvusCorax | so none of the so far backed up files would have correct permissions as of now | 00:11 |
Xenguy | frej00: I could split the file true; it probably is the only file I'm trying to backup that is too large | 00:13 |
Xenguy | CorvusCorax: I could reformat to ext4, but then I'm not sure I'd be able to use the device with Windows machines | 00:14 |
CorvusCorax | well, anything microsofty (vfat, ntfs) is bad for compatibility, because of things like "readme.txt and ReadMe.TXT are the same file" - lack of permission support -- I think I'd go for ext3 with extended attributes - that has maximum compatibility (backwards compatible to ext2) and the extended attributes can save anything special that any other system needs | 00:14 |
CorvusCorax | yeah, maybe go for ext3 then. there are ext2 drivers for windows, i am not sure if there are ext4 drivers for older windows versions | 00:15 |
CorvusCorax | for win10 there is an ext4 driver, but afaik it doesn't support it out of the box, you'd need to install it | 00:16 |
Xenguy | Is ext3 just ext2 with journaling tacked on? | 00:17 |
CorvusCorax | yep | 00:17 |
CorvusCorax | so you can write on ext3 with an old system that only knows ext2, and all that breaks is the journal, which fsck can easily fix | 00:17 |
CorvusCorax | ext4 supports some features ext2 does not have, so if you mount it with ext2 you might not be able to read some files | 00:18 |
Xenguy | So Windows supports ext2/3 natively now, say from W7 or W10? | 00:18 |
CorvusCorax | natively, I'm not sure. I haven't used any windows past XP | 00:18 |
Xenguy | Cos that's my only preferred requirement, that I could use the ED with Windows boxes too. | 00:18 |
CorvusCorax | I know there are ext2/3 drivers for windows, but I am not sure if these need to be installed or if its out of the box now | 00:19 |
Xenguy | It also occurred to me I could format the ED with NTFS. I think that was what my previous ED's filesystem was. | 00:19 |
Xenguy | I'm not sure how well NTFS handles linux's file permissions though | 00:20 |
Xenguy | I also read about some filesystem called ExFAT, which I've never heard of until today. | 00:21 |
Xenguy | ExFAT can handle larger file sizes, but not sure if there are disadvantages with that filesystem (FS). | 00:22 |
CorvusCorax | ExFAT is the successor of FAT32 - it's literally "extended FAT" - and it's the standard filesystem for USB sticks and sdcards >16 GB | 00:22 |
Xenguy | Huh, it sounds like it could be a contender then, as long as linux speaks that FS alright | 00:23 |
CorvusCorax | ExFAT has the same disadvantages as FAT though - case insensitivity ( if you have a readme.txt it will overwrite a README.TXT in the same folder ) no proper access rights since no groups, ... | 00:23 |
fsmithred | brocashelm, how many themes do you see in Appearance? I only have the three that I added (in chimaera) | 00:23 |
CorvusCorax | and many linux distributions don't support it because of a software patent held by microsoft | 00:24 |
Xenguy | CorvusCorax: Huh, OK, good to know | 00:24 |
CorvusCorax | ExFAT is protected by a patent minefield | 00:24 |
Xenguy | CorvusCorax: Any thoughts on NTFS as an option then? | 00:25 |
CorvusCorax | NTFS is an option but you need to format it with the case sensitivity flag enabled | 00:25 |
Xenguy | Alright, will watch for that thanks. I'm going to continue to research this issue a bit then. Thanks for the advice all. | 00:26 |
CorvusCorax | I am not sure if the linux tools support the advanced formatting options, last time I tried (that was 10 years ago) I could mount and write on an existing NTFS volume, but not format a disk with NTFS - needed windows server version for that | 00:26 |
CorvusCorax | but you can certainly format NTFS under windows 10 | 00:27 |
Xenguy | I seem to recall ntfs-ng was fairly capable on linux, but I'm no FS expert. | 00:27 |
sixwheeledbeast^ | i thought ext4 was useable in Win10 now? | 00:29 |
Xenguy | gnarface: I'm curious, are you in the habit of reformatting your external drives? If so, what file system would you recommend? | 00:30 |
Xenguy | sixwheeledbeast^: No idea (I'm still on W7 at work for now; no Windows machines at home) | 00:30 |
CorvusCorax | in googling I found something about native ext4 in newer windows 10, but not sure if that is planned or already released. wouldn't help with windows 7 or 8 though | 00:31 |
sixwheeledbeast^ | i read it recently. i havent used windoows since xp or something | 00:31 |
sixwheeledbeast^ | fat would be my go to for cross platform | 00:33 |
Xenguy | sixwheeledbeast^: The ED is currently formatted as vfat, but I hit a 'maximum 4Gb file size' limit, hence my questions about file systems on external drives. | 00:34 |
brocashelm | fsmithred: i see 5-8 on mine (i removed the ones i didn't need and added my own). why? | 00:40 |
fsmithred | I only see three. High-Contrast and the two devuan themes | 00:42 |
brocashelm | have you checked your /usr/share/themes folder for any missing ones? | 00:43 |
tuxd3v | fsmithred, I believe that a blackish theme would be awesome :) | 00:43 |
brocashelm | i stole artix's dark xfce theme for my devuans | 00:44 |
clort | dusk is good enough | 00:45 |
clort | bright theme people should get their own planet, far away | 00:45 |
brocashelm | the xfce dusk one is too old and fragmented in appearance | 00:46 |
brocashelm | but i rocked it on my mint 18.3 | 00:46 |
clort | btw fyi you all can get devuan on motorola droid 4's now, in case you didn't know this | 00:48 |
brocashelm | nice | 00:48 |
clort | 282 fps in glxgears atm, 16bpp | 00:49 |
clort | thread of random fun experiments with is is here: https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1569761 | 00:50 |
CorvusCorax | it really depends what you want to do with an external harddrive. if you want to store data with maximum capability (for example family pictures) - vfat is the way to go. if you wanna make backups of your system with rsync, you need large file support, access rights and at least user/group ownership. I'd personally go with ext* but NTFS with the right flags *might* be up for the job | 01:20 |
CorvusCorax | s/capability/compatibility/ | 01:20 |
* frej00 thumbs up | 01:29 | |
* clort ♥'s chattr +i (who wanted to change that? idk. preventing it) | 01:30 | |
suavedandy | Maemo's alive? | 01:31 |
suavedandy | Wow. | 01:32 |
clort | now powered by devuan, with 1GB ram. nobody stoppin this trin | 01:33 |
tuxd3v | afaik, nfs have a max file size of 4GB for client access.. | 01:35 |
Xenguy | I decided to simply 'split' the large file for now; so far so good. But as to the question of the best FS for the ED, I'm thinking I should just go with ext2 or ext3... | 01:39 |
Xenguy | It's not like a should really be plugging my ED into other Windows machines anyway, and I don't use them myself... | 01:40 |
Xenguy | I think if I need to share files, I can arrange that online. So perhaps the ED is really just for me, and I don't need all that compatibility after all. | 01:41 |
fsmithred | it's just user data files? | 01:41 |
Xenguy | I'm trying a 'full system' rsync backup from the root | 01:42 |
fsmithred | the restore won't work because of the lost permissions | 01:42 |
fsmithred | unless you put it all in a tarball | 01:42 |
Xenguy | Yeah, yer right... | 01:43 |
Xenguy | So maybe system files are out with vfat, but data files would work I suppose cos if I needed to restore from that, I could chown -R afterwards | 01:43 |
fsmithred | make a live-iso of the os excluding all your user's file, keep the iso on the external drive | 01:44 |
Xenguy | With refracta you mean? | 01:44 |
fsmithred | yeah, that's what I'd do | 01:44 |
fsmithred | that's what I do | 01:44 |
Xenguy | It's a good idea | 01:44 |
suavedandy | Wasn't Maemo, like, Nokia's old OS? | 01:44 |
fsmithred | then if you need to restore, it won't matter if you restore on different hardware | 01:45 |
Xenguy | fsmithred: Right now I admit I'm stuck on finding an rsync based solution, but thanks for that idea, I'll give that some consideration for sure. | 01:45 |
Xenguy | Good points for sure | 01:46 |
fsmithred | rsync all the stuff in your home | 01:46 |
fsmithred | I would just reformat to ext4 and consider windows incompatibility as a feature | 01:46 |
fsmithred | and if I really had to transfer the files to a windows box, I'd boot it with a linux live-usb | 01:47 |
suavedandy | From all the mobile projects from the ones based on Debian I remember only Mobian and PureOS. Ah, and Ubuntu Touch. Obviously. | 01:47 |
Xenguy | fsmithred: I like the way you roll | 01:48 |
CorvusCorax | I just did a bit of background reading on ntfs-3g - which has pretty full support for ntfs on linux. default linux access rights, ownerships, etc... are all mapped correctly, so this should work for backups. it gets more tricky with extended ACLs (the precompiled binaries don't have that enabled, one needs to compile from source) - and especially if you mount the drive on windows and windows starts messing with the ACLs. but | 01:50 |
CorvusCorax | out of the box it should be good for a system backup without extended ACLs | 01:50 |
CorvusCorax | and readable in all semi-recent windows builds | 01:51 |
suavedandy | The news on Maemo's site are 5 years old already. The last article was in 2015. | 01:51 |
suavedandy | Tho the community news are pretty fresh. | 01:53 |
Xenguy | Thanks CorvusCorax I appreciate the feedback | 01:54 |
CorvusCorax | one thing, you must mount it with "-o permissions" - otherwise all files will always be accessible for everyone ;) | 01:55 |
suavedandy | fsmithred? | 03:24 |
suavedandy | I found something you need to see. | 03:24 |
fsmithred | ? | 03:24 |
suavedandy | It's important. Regarding your installer. | 03:24 |
suavedandy | The logs say the installer cannot find the mkfs.vfat command. | 03:25 |
suavedandy | Probably the stage when it asks if you want to reformat ESP into Fat32. | 03:27 |
fsmithred | you need to install dosfstools | 03:27 |
suavedandy | And you choose the first option. | 03:27 |
fsmithred | it's a Recommends for refractasnapshot, but it's nowhere in the deps for the installer. | 03:28 |
fsmithred | I'll change that. | 03:28 |
suavedandy | It's strange that dosfstools are not included. | 03:29 |
suavedandy | After all, it's kind of a fundamental tool. | 03:29 |
fsmithred | not included where? | 03:29 |
suavedandy | In the ISO. | 03:29 |
fsmithred | yeah, ok. Lots of stuff is not included by default. | 03:30 |
fsmithred | which is part of why I make my own distro | 03:31 |
suavedandy | I mean, your ISO still has all the essentials. | 03:31 |
fsmithred | the desktop-live and the desktop choices in the installer are close to what debian gives you | 03:32 |
fsmithred | if you want anything different from that, start minimal and add what you want | 03:33 |
mason | suavedandy: It's recently a fundamental tool. I'd agree with its being there by default, alongside efibootmgr. | 03:33 |
mason | My install scripting pulls it in explicitly. | 03:33 |
suavedandy | You can install minimal with the desktop ISO? | 03:34 |
mason | suavedandy: Well, with debootstrap. | 03:34 |
mason | suavedandy: Or anything that provides the debian-installer. | 03:34 |
fsmithred | oh yeah, I was gonna say no, but you can debootstrap from the live isos | 03:35 |
mason | That's how I do it. | 03:35 |
fsmithred | other than that, the live installer just copies the live system to hard drive | 03:35 |
mason | Oh, I assumed it included debian-installer too. | 03:35 |
fsmithred | nope | 03:35 |
fsmithred | that's a future project | 03:35 |
fsmithred | or find aitor's unofficial devuan isos | 03:36 |
suavedandy | aitor? | 03:37 |
fsmithred | the lead dev of gnuinos | 03:38 |
clort | now i want a guinness | 03:38 |
fsmithred | libre derivative | 03:38 |
mason | heh | 03:38 |
suavedandy | It's fine, fsmithred. I'll just download dosfstools through Wi-Fi. | 03:38 |
mason | suavedandy: It's a small package. | 03:38 |
suavedandy | Tho the ISO doesn't come with NetworkManager. | 03:39 |
fsmithred | wicd is the default | 03:39 |
suavedandy | Oh. | 03:39 |
fsmithred | oh, it might be different for kde | 03:40 |
fsmithred | and maybe for cinnamon. Not sure. | 03:40 |
suavedandy | I'm using your minimal ISO. | 03:40 |
fsmithred | minimal live? | 03:40 |
suavedandy | Yes. | 03:40 |
suavedandy | That's the one. | 03:40 |
fsmithred | setnet.sh | 03:41 |
fsmithred | for wireless | 03:41 |
fsmithred | maybe wired, too. Been a couple years since I've tried that. | 03:41 |
suavedandy | Setnet… | 03:42 |
suavedandy | Hmmmmmmm. | 03:42 |
fsmithred | no? | 03:42 |
suavedandy | That's something I never used before. | 03:42 |
fsmithred | you won't find it anywhere else | 03:43 |
fsmithred | did you find it? | 03:46 |
suavedandy | Yes. | 03:50 |
suavedandy | Quite neat, actually. | 03:50 |
fsmithred | katolaz wrote that | 03:51 |
clort | ping command would benefit from three different colors/shades cycling per row | 03:52 |
suavedandy | Reminds me of wicd's TUI. But more minimalist and with a classic Debian style rather than black with neon. | 03:52 |
suavedandy | wicd's interface is freaking Tron Legacy. | 03:53 |
n4dir | clort: piping to lolcat ain't sufficient? :-) | 04:02 |
suavedandy | Also. APT has a funny behavior while fetching proposed updates. | 04:03 |
suavedandy | May be unrelated to the ISO. | 04:03 |
suavedandy | Just pointing it out. | 04:03 |
clort | it would help when scanning the thing out of the corner of my eye | 04:07 |
clort | i can do this but it will never get included anywhere | 04:07 |
mason | clort: You should submit a patch. I'd recommend --angry-fruit-salad as the option name. | 04:07 |
clort | you know how printer paper used to have alternating green/white rows | 04:09 |
clort | anybody remember that | 04:09 |
n4dir | i wasn't really kidding. to get it sorted quickly lolcat seems to do the job | 04:10 |
clort | thanks i'll check it out | 04:11 |
gnarface | Xenguy: i don't have a good recomendation for it. ext4 has quality control problems. i like XFS a lot these days. i'm not sure either are really optimal for removable drives, and i don't keep a lot of drives around that aren't permanently connected except for cheap USB and SD flash | 05:52 |
clort | what do you prefer on sd/microsd? | 05:53 |
Xenguy | gnarface: That's funny, I just now formatted the external drive (HD) with ext4 | 05:53 |
gnarface | clort: reiserfs | 05:54 |
gnarface | clort: (not joking) | 05:54 |
gnarface | XFS is a really good choice for stuff that's always on though | 05:54 |
Xenguy | gnarface: So do you recommend ext3 or ext2 instead of ext4, of ...? | 05:54 |
golinux | Xenguy: See how easy that was! | 05:55 |
Xenguy | *or ... | 05:55 |
Xenguy | golinux: yeah, gparted is an easy tool | 05:55 |
gnarface | Xenguy: if it's between ext2, ext3, and ext4 i'd say ext3 for safety unless it's a read-only boot partition on a arm device, then i'd say use ext2 with the ext4 driver for speed (data-loss reliability during writes shouldn't matter because you shouldn't be writing to /boot enough for it to be a concern) | 05:56 |
clort | i'm compiling a lot on microsd cards, which is a bit slow | 05:56 |
Xenguy | gnarface: Thanks for the recommendation, I'll go with ext3 then | 05:57 |
gnarface | Xenguy: (the ext4 driver has reverse compatibility which seems to work fine. the problems i've had with ext4 seem to be related to the e2fsprogs accompanying some versions) | 05:57 |
Xenguy | gnarface: But ext3 is perfectly reliable for backups, yes? | 05:58 |
gnarface | Xenguy: you should know that every time *i* ask this question though, the consensus seems to be btrfs or zfs | 05:58 |
Xenguy | No | 05:58 |
Xenguy | Not going there | 05:58 |
clort | trying reiser again would take some emotional courage, for me | 05:58 |
Xenguy | And not going to try reiser either | 05:58 |
Xenguy | I'm looking for a conservative, default FS option | 05:58 |
gnarface | Xenguy: yea ext3 should be very reliable. it's just not as performant as ext4. but if you're going for raw read speeds nothing is faster than XFS | 05:59 |
Xenguy | Not concerned with speed | 05:59 |
clort | i will try xfs on microsd for compiling sometime thanks | 05:59 |
Xenguy | Based on what you indicate, I'm thinking ext3 should be just fine | 05:59 |
clort | and reiser | 05:59 |
gnarface | Xenguy: are you concerned with flash wear leveling or will it be magnetic harddrives? | 05:59 |
Xenguy | This is an external HDD AFAIK | 06:00 |
Xenguy | So right often shouldn't be a problem, IIUC | 06:00 |
gnarface | shouldn't be | 06:00 |
Xenguy | *write | 06:00 |
gnarface | some people advise some ext* mount options to reduce wear if you're using flash storage, but it won't matter if it's regular harddrives | 06:01 |
gnarface | actually if it's just for daily backups it probably won't matter either way | 06:01 |
Xenguy | AFAIK this isn't SDD, so ext3 should be good. Trying again then. | 06:01 |
onefang | While on this subject, what is a good file system for general use on NVMe? | 06:03 |
gnarface | onefang: i don't know really but there's a lot of people playing with mobile nvme dives for pinebooks and such, and i think a lot of eyes are on f2fs over there | 06:07 |
gnarface | onefang: i haven't really tried it myself, it's way too new | 06:08 |
onefang | My new super desktop can hold seven of the things, I have one in it at the moment, plus my old spinning rust drives. I tend to use ext4 these days. | 06:08 |
gnarface | i try to just give filesystems a few years to cool down for them to work out the bugs | 06:10 |
gnarface | i moved on ext4 too soon and regretted it twice | 06:10 |
gnarface | it was the debian default but i feel they pushed it forward too early | 06:10 |
gnarface | then crippling quality control issues in the tool sets were swept under the rug | 06:11 |
onefang | Ext4 seems to be the popular choice these days. | 06:11 |
clort | i tend to question my choices if I am in the majority | 06:12 |
onefang | Me to. lol | 06:12 |
gnarface | ext4 is a popular default and in another 5 years may actually be as reliable as ext3 but for now i think it's a default that deserves to be questioned | 06:13 |
clort | lolcat does let me vary colors by line use -F 0.9 -p 1000 | 11:20 |
clort | /usr/lib/gcc/arm-linux-gnueabihf/8/../../../arm-linux-gnueabihf/gcrt1.o(.text+0x44): error: undefined reference to 'main' | 18:22 |
clort | maybe it's because of -fuse-ld=gold? | 18:23 |
mtnman | helo | 22:14 |
MinceR | 250 | 22:16 |
DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 23:36 |
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