libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2020-10-19

XenguyI've been wanting to look at upgrading from Ascii to Beowulf, and so bought a new 2TB external drive yesterday so I could rsync a good backup before starting the upgrade...00:08
Xenguyrsync threw an error 'File too large' on a file that is around 5Gb in size.  I checked the file system on the external drive (ED), and it is 'vfat' which has a file size limit of 4Gb AFAIK...00:10
frej00split it into 2 files? lol00:11
CorvusCoraxeasy fix: reformat the external drive to ext400:11
frej00I would be too lazy to reformat and redo the whole thing00:11
CorvusCoraxon vfat you would also lose access rights and ownership00:11
golinuxWhy did you buy a preformatted drive?00:11
XenguyThat got me wondering what the best file system might be for an ED, to handle large file sizes, *and* maintain maximum compatibility with different OS's?00:11
CorvusCoraxso none of the so far backed up files would have correct permissions as of now00:11
Xenguyfrej00: I could split the file true; it probably is the only file I'm trying to backup that is too large00:13
XenguyCorvusCorax: I could reformat to ext4, but then I'm not sure I'd be able to use the device with Windows machines00:14
CorvusCoraxwell, anything microsofty (vfat, ntfs) is bad for compatibility, because of things like "readme.txt and ReadMe.TXT are the same file" - lack of permission support -- I think I'd go for ext3 with extended attributes - that has maximum compatibility (backwards compatible to ext2) and the extended attributes can save anything special that any other system needs00:14
CorvusCoraxyeah, maybe go for ext3 then.  there are ext2 drivers for windows, i am not sure if there are ext4 drivers for older windows versions00:15
CorvusCoraxfor win10 there is an ext4 driver, but afaik it doesn't support it out of the box, you'd need to install it00:16
XenguyIs ext3 just ext2 with journaling tacked on?00:17
CorvusCoraxyep00:17
CorvusCoraxso you can write on ext3 with an old system that only knows ext2, and all that breaks is the journal, which fsck can easily fix00:17
CorvusCoraxext4 supports some features ext2 does not have, so if you mount it with ext2 you might not be able to read some files00:18
XenguySo Windows supports ext2/3 natively now, say from W7 or W10?00:18
CorvusCoraxnatively, I'm not sure. I haven't used any windows past XP00:18
XenguyCos that's my only preferred requirement, that I could use the ED with Windows boxes too.00:18
CorvusCoraxI know there are ext2/3 drivers for windows, but I am not sure if these need to be installed or if its out of the box now00:19
XenguyIt also occurred to me I could format the ED with NTFS.  I think that was what my previous ED's filesystem was.00:19
XenguyI'm not sure how well NTFS handles linux's file permissions though00:20
XenguyI also read about some filesystem called ExFAT, which I've never heard of until today.00:21
XenguyExFAT can handle larger file sizes, but not sure if there are disadvantages with that filesystem (FS).00:22
CorvusCoraxExFAT is the successor of FAT32 - it's literally "extended FAT" - and it's the standard filesystem for USB sticks and sdcards >16 GB00:22
XenguyHuh, it sounds like it could be a contender then, as long as linux speaks that FS alright00:23
CorvusCoraxExFAT has the same disadvantages as FAT though - case insensitivity ( if you have a readme.txt it will overwrite a README.TXT in the same folder ) no proper access rights since no groups, ...00:23
fsmithredbrocashelm, how many themes do you see in Appearance? I only have the three that I added (in chimaera)00:23
CorvusCoraxand many linux distributions don't support it because of a software patent held by microsoft00:24
XenguyCorvusCorax: Huh, OK, good to know00:24
CorvusCoraxExFAT is protected by a patent minefield00:24
XenguyCorvusCorax: Any thoughts on NTFS as an option then?00:25
CorvusCoraxNTFS is an option but you need to format it with the case sensitivity flag enabled00:25
XenguyAlright, will watch for that thanks.  I'm going to continue to research this issue a bit then.  Thanks for the advice all.00:26
CorvusCoraxI am not sure if the linux tools support the advanced formatting options, last time I tried (that was 10 years ago) I could mount and write on an existing NTFS volume, but not format a disk with NTFS - needed windows server version for that00:26
CorvusCoraxbut you can certainly format NTFS under windows 1000:27
XenguyI seem to recall ntfs-ng was fairly capable on linux, but I'm no FS expert.00:27
sixwheeledbeast^i thought ext4 was useable in Win10 now?00:29
Xenguygnarface: I'm curious, are you in the habit of reformatting your external drives?  If so, what file system would you recommend?00:30
Xenguysixwheeledbeast^: No idea (I'm still on W7 at work for now; no Windows machines at home)00:30
CorvusCoraxin googling I found something about native ext4 in newer windows 10, but not sure if that is planned or already released. wouldn't help with windows 7 or 8 though00:31
sixwheeledbeast^i read it recently. i havent used windoows since xp or something00:31
sixwheeledbeast^fat would be my go to for cross platform00:33
Xenguysixwheeledbeast^: The ED is currently formatted as vfat, but I hit a 'maximum 4Gb file size' limit, hence my questions about file systems on external drives.00:34
brocashelmfsmithred: i see 5-8 on mine (i removed the ones i didn't need and added my own). why?00:40
fsmithredI only see three. High-Contrast and the two devuan themes00:42
brocashelmhave you checked your /usr/share/themes folder for any missing ones?00:43
tuxd3vfsmithred, I believe that a blackish theme would be awesome :)00:43
brocashelmi stole artix's dark xfce theme for my devuans00:44
clortdusk is good enough00:45
clortbright theme people should get their own planet, far away00:45
brocashelmthe xfce dusk one is too old and fragmented in appearance00:46
brocashelmbut i rocked it on my mint 18.300:46
clortbtw fyi you all can get devuan on motorola droid 4's now, in case you didn't know this00:48
brocashelmnice00:48
clort282 fps in glxgears atm, 16bpp00:49
clortthread of random fun experiments with is is here: https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=156976100:50
CorvusCoraxit really depends what you want to do with an external harddrive. if you want to store data with maximum capability (for example family pictures) - vfat is the way to go.   if you wanna make backups of your system with rsync, you need large file support, access rights and at least user/group ownership. I'd personally go with ext* but NTFS with the right flags *might* be up for the job01:20
CorvusCoraxs/capability/compatibility/01:20
* frej00 thumbs up01:29
* clort ♥'s chattr +i (who wanted to change that? idk. preventing it)01:30
suavedandyMaemo's alive?01:31
suavedandyWow.01:32
clortnow powered by devuan, with 1GB ram.  nobody stoppin this trin01:33
tuxd3vafaik, nfs have a max file size of 4GB for client access..01:35
XenguyI decided to simply 'split' the large file for now; so far so good.  But as to the question of the best FS for the ED, I'm thinking I should just go with ext2 or ext3...01:39
XenguyIt's not like a should really be plugging my ED into other Windows machines anyway, and I don't use them myself...01:40
XenguyI think if I need to share files, I can arrange that online.  So perhaps the ED is really just for me, and I don't need all that compatibility after all.01:41
fsmithredit's just user data files?01:41
XenguyI'm trying a 'full system' rsync backup from the root01:42
fsmithredthe restore won't work because of the lost permissions01:42
fsmithredunless you put it all in a tarball01:42
XenguyYeah, yer right...01:43
XenguySo maybe system files are out with vfat, but data files would work I suppose cos if I needed to restore from that, I could chown -R afterwards01:43
fsmithredmake a live-iso of the os excluding all your user's file, keep the iso on the external drive01:44
XenguyWith refracta you mean?01:44
fsmithredyeah, that's what I'd do01:44
fsmithredthat's what I do01:44
XenguyIt's a good idea01:44
suavedandyWasn't Maemo, like, Nokia's old OS?01:44
fsmithredthen if you need to restore, it won't matter if you restore on different hardware01:45
Xenguyfsmithred:  Right now I admit I'm stuck on finding an rsync based solution, but thanks for that idea, I'll give that some consideration for sure.01:45
XenguyGood points for sure01:46
fsmithredrsync all the stuff in your home01:46
fsmithredI would just reformat to ext4 and consider windows incompatibility as a feature01:46
fsmithredand if I really had to transfer the files to a windows box, I'd boot it with a linux live-usb01:47
suavedandyFrom all the mobile projects from the ones based on Debian I remember only Mobian and PureOS. Ah, and Ubuntu Touch. Obviously.01:47
Xenguyfsmithred: I like the way you roll01:48
CorvusCoraxI just did a bit of background reading on ntfs-3g - which has pretty full support for ntfs on linux. default linux access rights, ownerships, etc... are all mapped correctly, so this should work for backups. it gets more tricky with extended ACLs (the precompiled binaries don't have that enabled, one needs to compile from source) - and especially if you mount the drive on windows and windows starts messing with the ACLs. but01:50
CorvusCoraxout of the box it should be good for a system backup without extended ACLs01:50
CorvusCoraxand readable in all semi-recent windows builds01:51
suavedandyThe news on Maemo's site are 5 years old already. The last article was in 2015.01:51
suavedandyTho the community news are pretty fresh.01:53
XenguyThanks CorvusCorax I appreciate the feedback01:54
CorvusCoraxone thing, you must mount it with "-o permissions" - otherwise all files will always be accessible for everyone ;)01:55
suavedandyfsmithred?03:24
suavedandyI found something you need to see.03:24
fsmithred?03:24
suavedandyIt's important. Regarding your installer.03:24
suavedandyThe logs say the installer cannot find the mkfs.vfat command.03:25
suavedandyProbably the stage when it asks if you want to reformat ESP into Fat32.03:27
fsmithredyou need to install dosfstools03:27
suavedandyAnd you choose the first option.03:27
fsmithredit's a Recommends for refractasnapshot, but it's nowhere in the deps for the installer.03:28
fsmithredI'll change that.03:28
suavedandyIt's strange that dosfstools are not included.03:29
suavedandyAfter all, it's kind of a fundamental tool.03:29
fsmithrednot included where?03:29
suavedandyIn the ISO.03:29
fsmithredyeah, ok. Lots of stuff is not included by default.03:30
fsmithredwhich is part of why I make my own distro03:31
suavedandyI mean, your ISO still has all the essentials.03:31
fsmithredthe desktop-live and the desktop choices in the installer are close to what debian gives you03:32
fsmithredif you want anything different from that, start minimal and add what you want03:33
masonsuavedandy: It's recently a fundamental tool. I'd agree with its being there by default, alongside efibootmgr.03:33
masonMy install scripting pulls it in explicitly.03:33
suavedandyYou can install minimal with the desktop ISO?03:34
masonsuavedandy: Well, with debootstrap.03:34
masonsuavedandy: Or anything that provides the debian-installer.03:34
fsmithredoh yeah, I was gonna say no, but you can debootstrap from the live isos03:35
masonThat's how I do it.03:35
fsmithredother than that, the live installer just copies the live system to hard drive03:35
masonOh, I assumed it included debian-installer too.03:35
fsmithrednope03:35
fsmithredthat's a future project03:35
fsmithredor find aitor's unofficial devuan isos03:36
suavedandyaitor?03:37
fsmithredthe lead dev of gnuinos03:38
clortnow i want a guinness03:38
fsmithredlibre derivative03:38
masonheh03:38
suavedandyIt's fine, fsmithred. I'll just download dosfstools through Wi-Fi.03:38
masonsuavedandy: It's a small package.03:38
suavedandyTho the ISO doesn't come with NetworkManager.03:39
fsmithredwicd is the default03:39
suavedandyOh.03:39
fsmithredoh, it might be different for kde03:40
fsmithredand maybe for cinnamon. Not sure.03:40
suavedandyI'm using your minimal ISO.03:40
fsmithredminimal live?03:40
suavedandyYes.03:40
suavedandyThat's the one.03:40
fsmithredsetnet.sh03:41
fsmithredfor wireless03:41
fsmithredmaybe wired, too. Been a couple years since I've tried that.03:41
suavedandySetnet…03:42
suavedandyHmmmmmmm.03:42
fsmithredno?03:42
suavedandyThat's something I never used before.03:42
fsmithredyou won't find it anywhere else03:43
fsmithreddid you find it?03:46
suavedandyYes.03:50
suavedandyQuite neat, actually.03:50
fsmithredkatolaz wrote that03:51
clortping command would benefit from three different colors/shades cycling per row03:52
suavedandyReminds me of wicd's TUI. But more minimalist and with a classic Debian style rather than black with neon.03:52
suavedandywicd's interface is freaking Tron Legacy.03:53
n4dirclort: piping to lolcat ain't sufficient? :-)04:02
suavedandyAlso. APT has a funny behavior while fetching proposed updates.04:03
suavedandyMay be unrelated to the ISO.04:03
suavedandyJust pointing it out.04:03
clortit would help when scanning the thing out of the corner of my eye04:07
clorti can do this but it will never get included anywhere04:07
masonclort: You should submit a patch. I'd recommend --angry-fruit-salad as the option name.04:07
clortyou know how printer paper used to have alternating green/white rows04:09
clortanybody remember that04:09
n4diri wasn't really kidding. to get it sorted quickly lolcat seems to do the job04:10
clortthanks i'll check it out04:11
gnarfaceXenguy: i don't have a good recomendation for it.  ext4 has quality control problems.  i like XFS a lot these days.  i'm not sure either are really optimal for removable drives, and i don't keep a lot of drives around that aren't permanently connected except for cheap USB and SD flash05:52
clortwhat do you prefer on sd/microsd?05:53
Xenguygnarface: That's funny, I just now formatted the external drive (HD) with ext405:53
gnarfaceclort: reiserfs05:54
gnarfaceclort: (not joking)05:54
gnarfaceXFS is a really good choice for stuff that's always on though05:54
Xenguygnarface: So do you recommend ext3 or ext2 instead of ext4, of ...?05:54
golinuxXenguy: See how easy that was!05:55
Xenguy*or ...05:55
Xenguygolinux: yeah, gparted is an easy tool05:55
gnarfaceXenguy: if it's between ext2, ext3, and ext4 i'd say ext3 for safety unless it's a read-only boot partition on a arm device, then i'd say use ext2 with the ext4 driver for speed (data-loss reliability during writes shouldn't matter because you shouldn't be writing to /boot enough for it to be a concern)05:56
clorti'm compiling a lot on microsd cards, which is a bit slow05:56
Xenguygnarface: Thanks for the recommendation, I'll go with ext3 then05:57
gnarfaceXenguy: (the ext4 driver has reverse compatibility which seems to work fine.  the problems i've had with ext4 seem to be related to the e2fsprogs accompanying some versions)05:57
Xenguygnarface: But ext3 is perfectly reliable for backups, yes?05:58
gnarfaceXenguy: you should know that every time *i* ask this question though, the consensus seems to be btrfs or zfs05:58
XenguyNo05:58
XenguyNot going there05:58
clorttrying reiser again would take some emotional courage, for me05:58
XenguyAnd not going to try reiser either05:58
XenguyI'm looking for a conservative, default FS option05:58
gnarfaceXenguy: yea ext3 should be very reliable.  it's just not as performant as ext4.  but if you're going for raw read speeds nothing is faster than XFS05:59
XenguyNot concerned with speed05:59
clorti will try xfs on microsd for compiling sometime thanks05:59
XenguyBased on what you indicate, I'm thinking ext3 should be just fine05:59
clortand reiser05:59
gnarfaceXenguy: are you concerned with flash wear leveling or will it be magnetic harddrives?05:59
XenguyThis is an external HDD AFAIK06:00
XenguySo right often shouldn't be a problem, IIUC06:00
gnarfaceshouldn't be06:00
Xenguy*write06:00
gnarfacesome people advise some ext* mount options to reduce wear if you're using flash storage, but it won't matter if it's regular harddrives06:01
gnarfaceactually if it's just for daily backups it probably won't matter either way06:01
XenguyAFAIK this isn't SDD, so ext3 should be good.  Trying again then.06:01
onefangWhile on this subject, what is a good file system for general use on NVMe?06:03
gnarfaceonefang: i don't know really but there's a lot of people playing with mobile nvme dives for pinebooks and such, and i think a lot of eyes are on f2fs over there06:07
gnarfaceonefang: i haven't really tried it myself, it's way too new06:08
onefangMy new super desktop can hold seven of the things, I have one in it at the moment, plus my old spinning rust drives.  I tend to use ext4 these days.06:08
gnarfacei try to just give filesystems a few years to cool down for them to work out the bugs06:10
gnarfacei moved on ext4 too soon and regretted it twice06:10
gnarfaceit was the debian default but i feel they pushed it forward too early06:10
gnarfacethen crippling quality control issues in the tool sets were swept under the rug06:11
onefangExt4 seems to be the popular choice these days.06:11
clorti tend to question my choices if I am in the majority06:12
onefangMe to.  lol06:12
gnarfaceext4 is a popular default and in another 5 years may actually be as reliable as ext3 but for now i think it's a default that deserves to be questioned06:13
clortlolcat does let me vary colors by line  use -F 0.9 -p 100011:20
clort/usr/lib/gcc/arm-linux-gnueabihf/8/../../../arm-linux-gnueabihf/gcrt1.o(.text+0x44): error: undefined reference to 'main'18:22
clortmaybe it's because of -fuse-ld=gold?18:23
mtnmanhelo22:14
MinceR25022:16
DocScrutinizer05:-D23:36

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