| phillipsjk | I recently upgrade my "white elephant" machine to beowulf, and noticed that a swap file is created in start-up. Is there a way to disable that behavior (RAM exceeds disk space by a factor of 2) | 11:16 |
|---|---|---|
| phillipsjk | based on df -h, it appears to be a dynamic swapfile, thankfully. | 11:19 |
| phillipsjk | According to free -h, the swapfile is currently 0B. | 11:21 |
| phillipsjk | this page says disable it in /etc/fstab, but my machine does not have a swap entry there. Are the start-up messages wrong? https://askubuntu.com/questions/214805/how-do-i-disable-swap | 11:25 |
| phillipsjk | the swapon manpages says I can check /proc/swaps, which has headings but not entries. | 11:27 |
| michaelfassbende | hey, Im trying to run devuan 32bit in virtualbox, what do I select in OS version? do i need to select 64 bit even if the iso im using is 32 bit like in debian? | 12:07 |
| michaelfassbende | hello?? | 12:13 |
| michaelfassbende | is anybody here??? | 12:14 |
| michaelfassbende | Ill just use the forum then | 12:15 |
| rkta | Hi! Where do I find the iwlwifi packages to download? | 19:02 |
| enyc | Hrrm...... My devuan-beowulf desktop -- microphone select function not working in sound-preferences in MATE desktop | 19:03 |
| enyc | wondering if some pulseaudio/dbus/udev/etc difference from debian/systemd/etc at play | 19:03 |
| clort | hi rkta | 19:12 |
| clort | from devuan repo - firmware-iwlwifi | 19:13 |
| clort | homepage: i have a nested x server (xephyr) and annoyingly not shared clipboard | 19:13 |
| clort | oops | 19:13 |
| clort | homepage is in linux kernel linux-firmware.git | 19:13 |
| clort | there was a little networking app to share x11 clipboards - you remember the name? | 19:13 |
| rkta | clort: I don't have a running install, I need to provide them to the installer. | 19:15 |
| clort | so you want to download the .deb package | 19:16 |
| clort | ? | 19:16 |
| clort | you can download the package with apt-get -d or aptitude download <package_name> | 19:18 |
| clort | you can extract files with dpkg -X <package.deb> . | 19:18 |
| rkta | clort: I need iwlwifi~5000-[1-5].ucode. I can't download them from installer as I don't have wifi at this point. I need to use another machine and put them on a thumb drive. | 19:22 |
| clort | i'm bad at remembering exactly where on the repo to wget .debs, sorry | 19:23 |
| clort | but you can extract them from the .deb with dpkg -X once you have it | 19:23 |
| clort | perhaps that will help | 19:23 |
| clort | otherwise they can be sourced from https://git.kernel.org under linux-firmware.git | 19:24 |
| rkta | clort: Are debian packages compatible? | 19:26 |
| clort | should be | 19:27 |
| gnarface | rkta: iwlwifi should have been included on the netinstall iso, i was pretty sure.... | 19:45 |
| rkta | gnarface: Computer says no ;) But the debian .deb seems to work | 19:46 |
| golinux | rkta: All Debian packages are avail via devuan repos. | 20:22 |
| golinux | At least those that are banned because they would break devuan. | 20:23 |
| golinux | Best not to use debian repos directly | 20:23 |
| rkta | golinux: I don't use the repos, Ij | 20:38 |
| rkta | I just downloaded the deb from Debian, as I could not find a devuan provided* | 20:38 |
| mason | rkta: iwlwifi is in non-free. I'm betting you don't have contrib or non-free enabled. | 20:46 |
| mason | rkta: On Beowulf, I see: Package: firmware-iwlwifi | 20:46 |
| rkta | mason: I did not have a chance to enable it. Installer just said it is missing. | 20:46 |
| mason | rkta: Oh, during install it was missing? fsmithred might be able to speak to that. | 20:47 |
| mason | rkta: If I remember correctly, it says it's missing but then loads it anyway. | 20:47 |
| fsmithred | normally the installer will install non-free firmware if hardware needs it | 20:47 |
| mason | I'm not familiar enough with the background to go beyond that though. | 20:47 |
| rkta | mason: Yes, during install with minimal netinstall iso | 20:47 |
| fsmithred | and you have to do some special things to avoid getting non-free | 20:47 |
| fsmithred | which iso? | 20:48 |
| fsmithred | there should be packages in /firmware on the iso. | 20:48 |
| rkta | devuan_beowulf_3.0.0_amd64-netinstall.iso from this mirror ftp.fau.de/devuan-cd/ | 20:50 |
| rkta | fsmithred: ^ | 20:50 |
| fsmithred | I see it | 20:50 |
| fsmithred | I'm downloading that one in case it's different from the one I have. | 20:52 |
| fsmithred | you checked the sha256sum? | 20:52 |
| fsmithred | firmware is all there | 20:52 |
| rkta | sha256sum says OK | 20:54 |
| fsmithred | you chose regular install or expert? | 20:55 |
| rkta | regular | 20:55 |
| fsmithred | weird. I can't explain it. | 20:55 |
| fsmithred | what kind of hardware/computer? | 20:56 |
| rkta | Thinkpad X200 | 20:56 |
| fsmithred | lol, I knew you were going to say thinkpad | 20:56 |
| fsmithred | T420 here. The firmware installs. | 20:57 |
| fsmithred | you're not the first one who didn't get the firmware automatically installed. | 20:58 |
| fsmithred | if that's any comfort | 20:58 |
| fsmithred | It's all working now, right? | 20:59 |
| rkta | I can reinstall tomorrow and see if it happens again - if this is helpful. If you tell how to, I can provide more info then. | 20:59 |
| rkta | Install went fine, after reboot, no interfaces were configured. | 20:59 |
| rkta | Can I log an install somehow? | 21:00 |
| fsmithred | you installed just a base system, or a desktop? | 21:00 |
| rkta | Base system with ssh | 21:00 |
| fsmithred | alt-f4 shows you the log, or alt-f2 and look at /var/log/syslog | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | or save it somehow | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | in the installed system it's in /var/log/installer | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | I don't want you to go through the install again | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | save your juice to test the 3.1 isos when we make them. | 21:02 |
| rkta | I have another x200 laying around ;) | 21:02 |
| fsmithred | cool | 21:02 |
| rkta | fsmithred: Do you want my installer logs? | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | sure. Either paste.debian.net or me at gmail | 21:19 |
| rkta | fsmithred: All: https://rkta.de/installer_logs.tar.bz2 or https://rkta.de/syslog | 21:21 |
| rkta | I'll stick around here for a few days if you need more info | 21:22 |
| fsmithred | thanks | 21:24 |
| fsmithred | I see it tried to load the right firmware but failed. Not sure why. | 21:24 |
| gnarface | rkta: just curious, got the latest bios? | 21:25 |
| rkta | gnarface: no | 21:25 |
| rkta | Well, I didn't check, but I doubt it | 21:26 |
| gnarface | could be related | 21:26 |
| rkta | I'll give it a try if I find time to do so | 21:27 |
| gnarface | might not matter | 21:28 |
| gnarface | change log might mention something though | 21:28 |
| fsmithred | looks like it did get installed: | 21:31 |
| fsmithred | Oct 31 19:11:02 in-target: Unpacking firmware-iwlwifi (20200918-1) ... | 21:31 |
| fsmithred | Oct 31 19:11:08 in-target: Setting up firmware-iwlwifi (20200918-1) ... | 21:31 |
| rkta | I had the debian .deb on a thumb drive | 21:32 |
| fsmithred | oh | 21:32 |
| rkta | But my whole network config is messed up, had to configure the interfaces, wpa_supplicant and even a default route. | 21:34 |
| fsmithred | yeah, I don't think you get configured network with just a cli system. | 21:35 |
| rrq | rkta: looks like the installer CD is found as /dev/sdb1 but it cannot be mounted | 21:35 |
| fsmithred | The desktops all rely on some network manager to do the connections | 21:35 |
| rkta | Ok, then nvm | 21:36 |
| fsmithred | you used a CD? | 21:36 |
| rkta | No, usb stick | 21:36 |
| rkta | /dev/sdb1 is the installer | 21:36 |
| fsmithred | Oct 31 18:32:14 cdrom-detect: CD-ROM mount succeeded: device=/dev/sdb1 fstype=iso9660 | 21:38 |
| fsmithred | there are mount errors before and after that. Not sure what to make of that. | 21:39 |
| rkta | I just downloaded the iso and dd'd it to a stick | 21:39 |
| fsmithred | that's what you're supposed to do. | 21:39 |
| fsmithred | I'll have to share this with someone who knows the installer better. | 21:40 |
| suavedandy | Something funny just happened when I rebooted. | 21:40 |
| fsmithred | we should be making new isos any week now. If you could come around and test those, it would be great. | 21:40 |
| suavedandy | "Trying to stop anachronistic cron: anacron" | 21:41 |
| rrq | rkta: maybe try again and dd it to /dev/sdb rather | 21:41 |
| suavedandy | "The action 'stop' is meaningless for this init script" | 21:41 |
| suavedandy | I use OpenRC. | 21:41 |
| rkta | Sure, can do. Will the new installer be announced on devuan-announce? | 21:42 |
| fsmithred | not until we're done testing it | 21:43 |
| rkta | So, devuan-dev it is? | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | maybe come back here a week from now and ask | 21:44 |
| fsmithred | or devuan-dev | 21:44 |
| suavedandy | So yeah, that happens every time I reboot. Except the init doesn't even try to stop anacron anymore. | 21:44 |
| suavedandy | Kinda weird. | 21:44 |
| rkta | Ok, will have a look then | 21:45 |
| fsmithred | thanks | 21:45 |
| suavedandy | And AppArmor failed to stop. | 21:46 |
| suavedandy | Ya kno. | 21:46 |
| suavedandy | I better install SysVinit. | 21:46 |
| suavedandy | It looks fishy. | 21:46 |
| suavedandy | The daemons fail to stop with OpenRC. | 21:47 |
| suavedandy | Guess it's still unstable. | 21:47 |
| suavedandy | Also, on boot OpenRC finds, and I cite, "dependency loops." | 21:49 |
| user____ | I sense darkness: https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/ | 21:54 |
| user____ | Beowulf uses xorg server(s). What will the future be like? Please don't say Wayland. | 21:55 |
| suavedandy | I dunno. | 21:55 |
| user____ | Now I am stumped. Ubuntu backpedaled from Wayland due to feature creep and lack of bug fixing, now xorg drops xserver?! HUH? | 21:57 |
| rkta | rrq: Sorry, missed your reply. I did dd it to /dev/sdb, not to /dev/sdb1 | 21:58 |
| suavedandy | Regarding Wayland, the only compositor for it is Sway. Which is manual tiling and still in development. | 21:58 |
| suavedandy | And wlroots, the basis of compositors, is still in development too. | 21:58 |
| suavedandy | Ah, there's also GNOME. | 21:59 |
| user____ | I am not sure if the naming of that project is related to one Susan Wayland whose self chosen nick is sway... | 21:59 |
| suavedandy | Not everyone wants to use GNOME tho. | 21:59 |
| user____ | And yes, gnome is not something I want to see in devuan. | 21:59 |
| suavedandy | Well, it's there. | 21:59 |
| rrq | rkta: ok. hmm | 21:59 |
| suavedandy | And Phosh is actually quite impressive. | 22:00 |
| suavedandy | So GNOME has its uses… on touch devices. | 22:00 |
| user____ | elsewhere... (off topic but crazy) https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/companies_house_xss_silliness/ | 22:01 |
| suavedandy | Also, #devuan-offtopic | 22:01 |
| user____ | exactly. | 22:01 |
| suavedandy | This is the support channel. | 22:01 |
| user____ | Well the 1st topic was dvuan affected by xorg going dark soon(?) | 22:01 |
| user____ | The second topic belongs on #offtopic. | 22:02 |
| suavedandy | No, both do. | 22:02 |
| suavedandy | We go off-topic sometimes. | 22:02 |
| suavedandy | Me too. | 22:02 |
| rrq | rkta: do you have a second drive that you could use to hold firmware? | 22:02 |
| * user____ is old enough to call it rambling | 22:02 | |
| suavedandy | Then golinux comes in and says it's off-topic. | 22:02 |
| rkta | rrq: I did so, the install went through fine. We were just looking why it didn't work as expected. | 22:03 |
| rrq | ah, ok. | 22:04 |
| user____ | some relevant tidbits in the comments may indicate a way for devuan to follow after xorg turns "off". This is on topic. https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/ | 22:04 |
| * clort has a sad | 22:06 | |
| user____ | this is why I worry: https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/#c_4136958 | 22:07 |
| suavedandy | The problem with Wayland is not Wayland itself. The thing is, wlroots and the compositors aren't ready yet, 99% haven't even left the prototype stage. | 22:08 |
| user____ | The way I read it, a LOT more than compositors is not ready. | 22:09 |
| suavedandy | How many compositors do you know that actually work? | 22:10 |
| user____ | I have a vague idea of compositors as a user but the one I presume does compositing in the current Beowulf desktop in front of me seems to work fine. | 22:11 |
| user____ | And it uses xorg | 22:11 |
| suavedandy | The compositor, the window manager and the display manager in Xorg are merged. | 22:12 |
| suavedandy | So it's an entirely different beast. | 22:12 |
| suavedandy | You, like, have to develop everything. From the ground up. There's no xinput even. | 22:13 |
| suavedandy | You have to develop xinput. From the ground up. | 22:13 |
| user____ | Hm? You mean in Wayland? | 22:13 |
| suavedandy | Yes. | 22:13 |
| suavedandy | That's why wlroots is here. | 22:14 |
| user____ | Sure, I see what you mean. I know this tangently. | 22:14 |
| suavedandy | By itself Wayland provides essentially nothing. | 22:14 |
| fsmithred | has debian stated when they will drop xorg? | 22:14 |
| suavedandy | It's a protocol. | 22:14 |
| suavedandy | Unlike Xorg. | 22:14 |
| suavedandy | Which is a window system. | 22:14 |
| user____ | I do not want to deal with the programming side of wayland at all. Or know about it. In the early 2000s I wrote a few X11 programs, small ones, study/proof of concept etc. | 22:14 |
| user____ | Well strictly X11 is a protocol too, but Xlib etc hide the ugly parts, creating new ugly exposed parts. | 22:15 |
| suavedandy | So yeah, Wayland essentially asks: "Why don't you do it yourself?" | 22:15 |
| user____ | fsmithred: I have not seen anything about anyone dropping xorg yet. | 22:15 |
| user____ | fsmithred: only Rat Sh*t noise about this being the "future" (nobody is surprized) | 22:15 |
| fsmithred | so we probably have a few years | 22:16 |
| suavedandy | Have no idea how ready wlroots is tho. | 22:16 |
| user____ | Well xorg is so central to several open source *nixes that it will likely be commuynity maintained for at least a decade. | 22:16 |
| user____ | Especially if the waylaid people continue to have the attitude they have had for ten years now. | 22:17 |
| user____ | Which is the most likely outcome. | 22:17 |
| user____ | I am actually amazed it was managed by a single person for 3 decades. | 22:17 |
| user____ | They don't make programmers like that anymore. | 22:17 |
| suavedandy | I don't think Wayland and Sway/wlroots are connected. | 22:18 |
| suavedandy | Sway/wlroots have seperated devs. | 22:18 |
| suavedandy | *seperate | 22:18 |
| suavedandy | Most of the meat is wlroots. | 22:19 |
| suavedandy | As I remember. | 22:19 |
| suavedandy | Of course before wlroots the compositors were made from the ground up. | 22:19 |
| suavedandy | But the Sway dev kinda got annoyed with it. | 22:20 |
| suavedandy | But other than Sway I don't know who else uses wlroots. | 22:21 |
| user____ | I think the general problem shining through the various bit rots like systemd, wayland, gnome feature creep and others, is strongly connected to the fact that most "development" comes from RH employees? At least that is what I see? More or less? So we have unelected, unvetted developers calling the shots and proclaiming that deletion of 30 years of features is "progress"? THIS is the real problem. | 22:22 |
| user____ | So it's a political / acceptance problem first and foremost. | 22:22 |
| rrq | rkta: that /syslog seems to be from a succesful install run though; I must have missed what the problem is/was | 22:23 |
| suavedandy | You seem to be very critical of RedHat. | 22:23 |
| user____ | Similar to google declaring it's app store is secure and "other source" (like f-droid) are not. | 22:23 |
| suavedandy | Google's just greedy. | 22:23 |
| suavedandy | Of course they'll say that. | 22:23 |
| user____ | I am not critical of RH, I am critical of "leakage" from private project authors who happen to all be employees of RH at the moment. | 22:24 |
| rkta | rrq: Problem was, that I had to provide the iwlwifi firmware files from a thumb drive, because they were not found be the installer. | 22:24 |
| user____ | *other sources - sigh | 22:24 |
| suavedandy | Well, technically, they're correct. | 22:24 |
| suavedandy | Sites with lots of malicious ads about JoyCasino are not very trustworthy. | 22:25 |
| user____ | The comments thread I linked above has a key post about some employees relying on remote X sessions to continue working during lockdown. This would not have worked without Xorg. | 22:25 |
| suavedandy | Unfortunately, F-Droid is "other" too. | 22:25 |
| user____ | suavedandy: I don't see ads on f-droid.org | 22:25 |
| suavedandy | Not talking about F-Droid. | 22:26 |
| user____ | And it's not the only one. F.ex. sshelper I always install as apk from it's author's site... not google. | 22:26 |
| suavedandy | It would be a sin for an Android enthousiast to not know what F-Droid is. | 22:26 |
| user____ | Far FAR from the only one. I maintain one google free phone and it's amazing how much c**p is in the app store, with periodic security scares when they discover like a hundred apps were key loggers. | 22:27 |
| suavedandy | You can always set F-Droid as the trusted source. | 22:27 |
| clort | switch to devuan + maemo leste phone then | 22:27 |
| clort | we have cookies | 22:27 |
| user____ | I can't root all phones I have. | 22:27 |
| clort | you can sell them | 22:28 |
| user____ | It's not that :) | 22:28 |
| suavedandy | By an /e/ phone then. | 22:28 |
| suavedandy | It comes with F-Droid. | 22:28 |
| suavedandy | I would still choose Librem but oh, well. | 22:29 |
| suavedandy | Your choise. | 22:29 |
| suavedandy | Android is kind of Windows of phones. | 22:31 |
| user____ | yes | 22:32 |
| user____ | to the extent to which Apple desktop os is the windows of freebsd :) | 22:35 |
| suavedandy | Is any NTP daemon like Chrony pre-installed on Devuan? I planned to install Chrony. | 22:35 |
| rrq | rkta: would be useful with a /syslog where it fails .. maybe too late :) | 22:36 |
| user____ | windows itself is pobably the wrong turn m$ took when they divorced from sco unix which was briefly able to run both nix and windows apps way back when. The rest is sad history. | 22:36 |
| user____ | <off topic done/> | 22:36 |
| suavedandy | I wouldn't compare Mac OS X to FreeBSD. | 22:36 |
| user____ | Well it was sort of built on top of it. | 22:36 |
| suavedandy | I mean, Mac OS X is… kiiiiiiiinda based on Unix but nah. | 22:37 |
| suavedandy | It's Darwin. | 22:37 |
| user____ | There are other FreBSD clones which are err closer to the oem :) (ScreenOS!) | 22:37 |
| rkta | rrq: I can try it on a another machine, which is a similar model. If needed i reinstall - being distro hopping anyways. | 22:37 |
| user____ | To the point where Juniper never supplies FreeBSD manpages so Junos users get them from FreeBSD online... | 22:38 |
| user____ | <off topic done, this time for good/> | 22:38 |
| suavedandy | Also, I do appreciate some of the stuff Mac devs are doing for those that use the mouse as an input device. Tho if I wanted to give a mouse-driven interface to my friend or mom, I would opt for Elementary. | 22:38 |
| suavedandy | 'Cause less of a walled garden. | 22:39 |
| user____ | Tbh as a gui, I was most impressed by Squeak. That was in the 1990s. | 22:39 |
| suavedandy | Actually, comparing Android to iPhone is also appropriate in that context. Both are user jails. | 22:39 |
| user____ | Squeak as a WM/compositor would be an interesting beast. I am sure it can do it. Not fast, but it can. | 22:40 |
| user____ | https://squeak.org/ this squeak fwiw | 22:41 |
| suavedandy | But Android is, like, half-iOS, half-Windows, stealing design elements and restrictiveness and close ecosystem from the first and stealing light costumization, bloatedness and complete incompetence of the second. | 22:42 |
| user____ | :) | 22:42 |
| suavedandy | Like, it took the worst from both. Except for light costumization. Tho changing a messenger app isn't what I call an achievement. | 22:43 |
| user____ | I am not complaining too much. Android Studio is horrible to use but it works eventually, much worse than the MIDLET development IDE which preceded it. | 22:43 |
| suavedandy | The worst part is that with every version there's even less stuff you can do. Including with root. | 22:45 |
| user____ | Pretty close to a distributed desktop (!) in Smalltalk. I can only hope someone will pick up the gauntlet and try it in that context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_Project | 22:45 |
| user____ | suavedandy: of course, herding the sheeple towards the cash register at the checkout counter requires this. | 22:45 |
| suavedandy | Let's go to #devuan-offtopic | 22:45 |
| user____ | But think of the stock owners! :) | 22:45 |
| user____ | Yes no more of this here. | 22:45 |
| golinux | It's about time. | 22:46 |
| suavedandy | golinux! | 22:46 |
| suavedandy | I KNEW you would join! | 22:46 |
| golinux | I go out to wash the car and come back to find this. | 22:46 |
| suavedandy | Sorry. | 22:46 |
| user____ | golinux: do you have any info on debian dropping/replacing xorg in any timeframe? | 22:46 |
| suavedandy | Told him that the sheriff's coming. | 22:46 |
| golinux | sheriffess | 22:47 |
| suavedandy | Oh, sorry. | 22:47 |
| suavedandy | Is that an actual word? | 22:47 |
| suavedandy | Sherifessssssssssss. | 22:47 |
| golinux | offtopic | 22:47 |
| user____ | Aren't all sheriffs SHEriffs? /me ducks | 22:47 |
| golinux | Please just go there. | 22:47 |
| golinux | And consider growing up on your way. | 22:48 |
| golinux | user____: I have enough real time things to deal with. No time for speculation on what might happen. | 22:49 |
| * user____ is fascinated by Croquet and would like to try it perhaps with others from devuan, on devuan machines. Going to offtopic with this | 22:50 | |
| enyc | Hrrm...... My devuan-beowulf desktop -- microphone select function not working in sound-preferences in MATE desktop | 23:45 |
| enyc | wondering if some pulseaudio/dbus/udev/etc difference from debian/systemd/etc at play | 23:45 |
| enyc | I might to test/compare-with mxlinux debian-not-booted-systemd on same hardware | 23:46 |
| enyc | ^^ any ideas about the sort of issue i minoin,d not able to get microphone / selection of microphone going in devuan ? | 23:51 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!