libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2021-04-25

tuxd3vI remember that in tha past there was a applet in Control center for the printer..00:29
tuxd3vbut I don't see it there :(00:29
tuxd3vXenguy, ^^00:29
Xenguytuxd3v, Here on Beowulf, I have:  Control Center > Administration > Print Settings00:31
tuxd3vI don't have this:  Control Center > Administration > Print Settings in Chimaera :/00:35
XenguyBug?00:35
tuxd3vit could be00:36
tuxd3vI am trying to find what package brings it..00:36
XenguySounds like a serious one, if so00:36
tuxd3vwell, maybe its there, but not activated, I didn't found it, I checked it now..00:39
tuxd3vmaybe some file is preventing it from appearing..00:40
tuxd3v.desktop00:40
tuxd3vdon't know00:40
systemdlete2I have been finding btrfs to be a disaster.   I don't know how I got conned into believing it, but I went and started making all new filesystems btrfs.  I am having more than a bit of buyers remorse.00:40
systemdlete2I began moving back to ext4 yesterday.  I started with my host system, hoping that would kill most of the fallout.  It took me about 8 hours of downtime to complete the change.  And now the host seems happy enough, but only time will tell -- until the next calamity, if any.00:42
systemdlete2Meanwhile, some of the VMs (also tainted by many btrfs thanks to my ignorant decision to deploy btrfs everywhere) are experiencing odd issues.  Today, I tried to modify a file on one of the VMs and discovered I couldn't because it had been remounted (!) readonly.   The VM was behaving odd overall, so I rebooted.00:43
XenguyGood to know, if btrfs is not ready for prime time00:44
systemdlete2This has got to be the worst thing since the appearance of that borgmonster u-no-wott.00:44
systemdlete2Xenguy, there is literally a page on a wiki listing all the problems with it.00:45
XenguyWIP then  : -)00:45
systemdlete2Kind of like its big brother systemd00:45
XenguyI go with 'stable' nowadays; my mad tinkerer days are over00:46
XenguyI tinker to make things 'just work' now00:47
systemdlete2Worse than all this is the fact that I had carefully handcrafted several "template" VMs with solely btrfs -- so that I could just clone these templates to create new VMs when I needed them.  I created several varieties of beowulf including star and refracta versions with various dimensions00:47
systemdlete2Very convenient... until now   :(00:47
systemdlete2Xenguy:  Actually, I have never been much of an adventurer.  In fact, it is surprising that I bought into this farce so quickly.  I am extremely conservative as it comes to trying new stuff.00:48
XenguyWell just because btrfs isn't fully ready now, doesn't mean it won't be some day00:48
systemdlete2It's a combination of having gotten burnt numerous times as well as my years working in the conservative environment of a brokerage house where we had to be very very careful about deploying anything -- new or old!00:49
systemdlete2I agree.  And maybe trying it out on just a few select VMs would have made much more sense.00:50
systemdlete2Either way, I won't do THAT ever again.  I'm going back to my original mindset: Don't be afraid to try new stuff, but do so carefully, especially at first.00:50
aliceussrHello, comrades!00:50
rwpI have been hearing about btrfs for years.  Technology of the future.  And the future isn't here yet.00:51
rwpHowever I was surprised to learn that Facebook uses btrfs extensively on their many thousands of servers.00:51
WafficusHow do I upgrade Devuan to basically Debian's testing branch?00:51
aliceussrPlease tell me when is the next version of Devuan coming out?00:52
rwpAll of them are probably doing exactly the same workload though and therefore not going to tickle any new or random event problem.00:52
systemdlete2rwp: One more reason NOT to use FB00:52
WafficusI ask because I want Emacs 27.1, and the current Devuan stable only has Emacs 26, so I would need this, and don't mind the testing version, since I use Debian 10 testing on a work VM just fine00:52
rwpHello aliceussr.  I am just another user but generally a Devuan release will follow the associated Debian release after a short time.00:53
aliceussrrwp: Ok, big thanks for your answer!00:53
systemdlete2rwp:  Anyway, yours are exactly my sentiments.  But what can we do when such wares are offered to us at these great prices?  They seem like bargains, until we actually start using them that is.00:53
rwpaliceussr, It's hard to give a definite solid answer because releases have always happened "when they are ready" without a fixed schedule.00:54
rwpBut generally Debian/Devuan releases occur every two years in the late Spring.00:54
systemdlete2maybe good to let new users know that there might be some delay to release devuan after debian releases theirs, due to numerous changes that could need to be made first.00:55
rwpaliceussr, For users that wish to test out the release candidates as they evolve there is the Testing suite.  Currently named Chimaera.  That will become the next Stable when it releases.  It is still changing.00:55
aliceussrrwp: OK! I long wait next release Devuan. *DRINK*00:56
rwpIs there something in particular you are wanting or needing?  Such as Wafficus who is wanting to use Emacs 27.1 in the next release?00:56
systemdlete2aliceussr:  Beowulf has been good to me so far (sans btrfs of course).00:56
systemdlete2aliceussr: Check backports.  Many times newer packages are available there.00:57
aliceussrsystemdlete2: Ok, thanks!00:57
rwpIf you have not seen it then this wiki page contains useful information about releases. https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases00:57
rwpAnd this is the associated Devuan information page: https://www.devuan.org/os/releases00:58
rwpWafficus, You say you are wanting to upgrade from Stable to Testing?00:59
systemdlete2https://bugzilla.kernel.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&component=btrfs&limit=0&order=bug_status%2Cpriority%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_id&query_format=advanced01:00
rwpWafficus, I have seen some various issues currently with Devuan Testing "Chimaera" since it is a moving target.  So I might recommend a backport of Emacs if that is the only thing that you are wishing.  That would be safer at this moment.01:00
systemdlete2(I never considered checking the bug tracker for btrfs before deploying it.)01:00
systemdlete2(Everywhere... ::headslap::)01:01
rwpWafficus, I just looked and Emacs 27.1 is available on Beowulf from beowulf-backports which makes it probably the best solution for you.01:03
rwpsystemdlete2, I feel like I should start expounding on the virtues of xfs now to see if I can entice you into switching from ext4 to xfs. :-)01:04
systemdlete2rwp!!!!01:04
* rwp laughs evily...01:04
Wafficusrwp:  gotcha, can you guide me how to use the backports in tha case for Devuan to allow for Emacs 27.1?01:05
systemdlete2You see how vulnerable I am at this tender moment, and yet you continue to woo me...   you stinker you!01:05
rwpAt installation time the devuan installer usually places a beowulf-backports line into the /etc/apt/sources.list file.01:05
rwpPlease look at that file and let us know if you have that line there.01:05
* systemdlete2 thinks rwp may be part of the borg01:05
Wafficusrwp: gotcha, looking in that directory now01:05
melodiethis https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2282 has helped me get lightdm working in Devuan01:06
rwpI am Pentium of Borg.  Division is useless.  You will be approximated!01:06
melodieI like it over slim01:06
melodieslim is too light not comfy01:06
melodierwp DoctorWho revisited?01:06
systemdlete2LEGALIZE DIVISION BY ZERO NOW!01:06
rwpI think it was fsmithred who was trying to discourage me from slim not long ago due to arrested development on it.01:07
systemdlete2(it's a trump rally, ok?)01:07
systemdlete2but I am o.t. now...01:07
rwpmelodie, That was a joke on this old bug: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug01:07
melodierwp if you like the smallest go for nodm01:07
melodierwp let me see01:07
Wafficushttps://termbin.com/hnmd01:08
Wafficusrwp:01:08
Wafficusthat's the output of sources.list01:08
melodieaha ok01:08
melodierwp your say looked a lot like the Daleks call01:09
rwpWafficus, Good!  You have the "deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf-backports main" line in place already.01:09
rwpSo then we just need to dig up the command to install from it.  Anyone have that on the tip of their fingers already?01:09
fsmithredapt -t beowulf-backports install <package>01:10
melodieI wonder, about the snapshot tool : what if I asked the dev(s) in charge of it to merge it's best parts with antiX snapshot scripts best parts?01:10
fsmithredmelodie, you need to be more specific. What parts?01:11
melodiewould that be a request having a chance to be considered?01:11
fsmithredyeah, but only if you tell me what parts01:11
rwpWafficus, See fsmithred's command a few lines up, for emacs basically: apt-get install -t beowulf-backports -s emacs01:11
melodiehi fsmithred the parts that allow choosing if you want it for your own use or for distributing, then if so it will just ignore your home and for one, reset it to default, for two use prior whatever you have put inside /etc/skel01:12
rwpI added -s to simulate so that it will show but not do anything.  If that is what you want then remove the -s and install it for real from backports.01:12
Wafficusgotcha, will try that now thanks rwp01:12
Wafficusadding to my notes01:12
fsmithredmelodie, you can already do that with refractasnapshot by adjusting the excludes file01:12
melodiefsmithred I guess either the dev would need to try the actual Snapshot tool, or I would have to be very precise with a feature request, with steps by steps and screenshots01:13
melodiefsmithred yes, but that file will stay in the snapshot then in the iso that is to be distributed and it should not01:13
fsmithredlook at /usr/lib/refractasnapshot/snapshot_exclude.list01:13
rwpThanks fsmithred!  I was stuck trying to deduce the -t target being beowulf-backports.  I tried other things unsuccessfully.01:13
melodiefsmithred I have added an exclude directory01:13
fsmithredgood point. You can change the location of the excludes file and the config file.01:14
fsmithredPut them in the snapshot directory, and they won't be copied.01:14
melodieit still leaves traces01:14
fsmithredthe defaults will stay in their default location01:14
fsmithredwhere?01:14
fsmithredyou want the log excised?01:14
melodiein the file where it says what exclude file path and file will be used01:14
fsmithredthat's the config file01:15
rwpWafficus, I am surprised by how many dependencies Emacs is pulling in.  But that is the full X graphical UI.  Are you using the GUI or the -nox TUI for emacs?01:15
fsmithredyou put that in the snapshot directory and use -c option to point to the config file01:15
fsmithredstart from command line01:15
rwpWafficus, When I test the emacs-nox here the upgrade is significantly smaller and less invasive.01:15
melodiefsmithred it is difficult for me to explain, I just found Devuan having a better finish, and antiX an easier snapshot tool01:15
rwpBut of course that is the curses text screen only.01:15
melodiefsmithred especially the gui01:15
fsmithredoh, I don't bother using the gui version of refractasnapshot.01:16
* systemdlete2 thinks deeply about strategy to rollback all of his VMs from btrfs to ext401:16
melodiefsmithred what do you use?01:16
fsmithredcli version01:16
fsmithredrefractasnapshot -d -c refractasnapshot.conf01:16
melodieso?01:17
Wafficusrwp: I'm using the graphical version of Emacs 27.01:17
melodieok good to know01:17
Wafficuson my Gentoo laptop, I also utilize Emacs Window Manager01:17
Wafficusbut for this particular Devuan desktop01:17
melodiefsmithred does refractasnapshot come with a man?01:17
WafficusI only want to use MATE desktop or Openbox, that's it01:17
fsmithredno01:17
melodie(it is working now so I can't disturb it)01:17
fsmithredreadme is accessible from within the program01:17
melodiea -h ?01:17
melodieok01:17
melodiegood to know too01:17
fsmithredyeah, -h|--help01:17
melodiedo you start it as root with su ?01:18
fsmithredyes01:18
fsmithreduh...01:18
fsmithredI fixed my root's path in beowulf01:18
fsmithredoh01:18
fsmithredn/m I fixed the path in the scripts01:18
rwpWafficus, Very good.  It's a choice so that is why I was asking.  Backports of X programs can have a significant cone of upgrade to the newer versions.  That's okay though.01:18
melodiedo you need to copy the whole refractasnaptshot.conf to the snapshot directory or only the part you want to change?01:18
Wafficusgotcha, its just my01:18
fsmithredall of it01:18
Wafficus*Just Works Desktop01:18
melodieok01:18
Wafficusso I don't mind anything installed on this machine personally01:19
fsmithredyou can do the same with the excludes files01:19
Wafficussweet, Emacs --version shows 27.101:19
Wafficusgonna launch it and see if my config works01:19
melodiefsmithred ok I get it01:19
rwpfsmithred, It would be awesome if https://www.devuan.org/os/packages mentioned an example install using the "-t <release codename>-backports" option. :-)01:20
melodiefsmithred then you do " refractasnapshot -d -c refractasnapshot.conf " and that conf file contains the path to your custom exclude files then? I think I am starting to get it01:20
fsmithredmelodie, the excludes file is set to exclude everything I could think of that's private. You have to comment out some lines if you want to keep private keys.01:21
fsmithredyes, correct01:21
melodieI never create snapshots for my own use, only for redistribution01:21
fsmithredthere are some example lines with explanation in the excludes file01:21
fsmithredyeah, most of mine are for someone else01:22
melodiefsmithred I had to read them twice to be sure that # was the sign to use for comments01:22
melodiesome scripts sometimes use other signs01:22
melodieI didn't know what to think of the ' - ' signs at the start of the lines but I imitated the method01:23
fsmithredthat will work. It means that item will not be copied by rsync.01:23
fsmithredit will be excluded from the snapshot01:23
Wafficusnice, the only thing left is to look at the fonts present01:23
melodiewhat bugs me is my home is in French, what if I want the users to be able to choose at the boot of the live?01:23
WafficusI re-downloaded the 'Hack' font and placed it into /etc/fonts, and just need to check my Emacs itself to see if its actually using at per my config01:24
Wafficusother than that, looks like it was able to pull all my config dependencies just fine01:24
fsmithredchange default locale to C before you make the snapshot. And timezone to UTC.01:24
melodiefsmithred ah ! with what? dpkg-reconfigure locales ?01:25
fsmithredyes and dpkg-reconfigure tzdata01:25
melodieoook!01:25
melodiethanks a lot for all your help!01:25
fsmithredyw01:25
melodie:-)01:25
fsmithreddo you understand the other build/rebuild options?01:26
fsmithredsave_work="yes"01:26
fsmithredand then you can manually change stuff in the work_dir and do a quicker rebuild01:27
melodiefsmithred after reconfiguring locale and timezone, should I use "sync", or reboot or something before starting refractasnapshot?01:27
fsmithredI think reboot is probably easiest. Or 'init 1'01:27
melodieinit 1 ?01:27
melodiewhat does it do?01:27
Xenguyno, please, anything, but not the 'init', I beg of you01:28
melodieexcept going to init 1 ?01:28
melodieXenguy :D01:28
Xenguy;)01:28
fsmithreddrops you to runlevel 101:28
melodiebut what can anyone do in runlevel 1 ?01:28
fsmithredand all you have to do is press ctrl-d to return to the default runlevel01:28
melodie?01:28
fsmithredit restarts everything without a full reboot01:28
melodieaha01:29
melodieok but I'll reboot01:29
fsmithredfaster, and it works if you don't need to reload the kernel01:29
melodieI use SSD's anyway so it's fast enough01:29
Wafficusback01:29
Wafficushad to restart01:29
fsmithredif you want to be tricky, chroot the work_dir and reconfigure locales and tz there.01:30
melodiefsmithred so you run init 1 as root, then you press Ctrl+D and it magically has restarted everything faster?01:30
fsmithredthen re-squash01:30
fsmithredyes01:30
fsmithredit's almost a reboot01:30
fsmithredXenguy, what don't you like about that?01:30
melodiewhen you chroot the work dir do you need to bind and stuff dev sys proc and tmpfs ?01:31
melodiemount and bind?01:31
fsmithreddepends on what you want to do01:31
melodiejust what you just suggested01:32
fsmithredI usually do those things01:32
melodiein that case, is it needed?01:32
fsmithreduh01:32
fsmithredare you running refracta or pure devuan?01:32
Wafficusoh yeah, someone told me about refracta the other day, looked neat01:32
melodieI downloaded and installed devuan, so that should be devuan, right?01:32
fsmithredfor installing packages, I don't think you need to bind mount those things. For grub-install you definitely do.01:33
melodieI don't know about refracta anyway, only the name of the snapshot tool.01:33
fsmithredyeah01:33
Wafficusthanks guys for helping me get Emacs 27.1 on this machine :)01:33
melodiefsmithred lets get back to the work dir that I'd chroot :01:33
fsmithredok01:34
melodieonce inside the chroot I reconfigure locales and timezone.01:34
fsmithredyeah01:34
fsmithredthen exit the chroot01:34
melodiethen I exit the chroot in order to rebuild : is that right?01:34
fsmithredand run the re-squash option01:34
melodieok*01:34
fsmithredof refractasnaphsot01:34
melodiethat will be for next day or so :)01:34
fsmithredI think it's #201:34
melodie#2 ? there is a number two?01:35
fsmithredif you just edit the boot menu in the iso dir, you can use the option to re-run xorriso01:35
fsmithredthere are at least 4 options01:35
melodiewhere is that boot menu in the iso dir?01:36
melodiea file?01:36
fsmithredlive.cfg01:36
melodieah !01:36
melodieok, I didn't know about it yet01:36
fsmithredwork/iso/isolinux/live.cfg01:36
melodiegreat!01:36
fsmithredor find the template in /usr/lib/refractasnapshot01:36
melodieI'll look tomorrow, not it's 1:36 am here, I can't keep on learning now01:37
melodieI'll reread the discussion from the log here tomorrow01:37
fsmithredhave fun01:37
melodiethanks! ^^01:37
melodiegn01:37
Wafficusdang, my notes didn't have that apt install command from earlier02:00
Wafficuswhat was the apt install command to install Emacs from backports?02:00
Wafficussorry to ask, but my weechat buffer quit after I restarted as well :/02:01
Wafficusjust wanted to put this in my notes for reference02:01
rwpWafficus, "apt-get install -t beowulf-backports -s emacs"02:05
rwpThe -s being the simulate option.  Remove that to actually do it.02:05
Wafficusthanks02:06
rwpGood luck!  For me every time I upgrade to a new release of Emacs then I must spend three days fixing the things they have broken on me. :-(02:07
Wafficusthanks rwp02:09
WafficusI'm trying to swap ctrl key with caps key with an ~/.xmodmap file that works on my Gentoo laptop, but not on my Devuan desktop for some reason:02:56
Wafficushttps://termbin.com/jp2802:57
Wafficusthat is my current ~/.xmodmap02:57
Wafficusis this controlled somewhere else on Devuan?02:57
rwpWafficus, Confirm that you are activating it with "xmodmap ~/.xmodmap" ??03:13
rwpWafficus, I am doing a similar thing but a little differently.  https://termbin.com/q1un03:15
Wafficusrwp: I didn't try xmodmap ~/.xmodmap03:16
WafficusI'll try that real quick03:16
rwpSorry, this one is probably the better one: https://termbin.com/r6af03:16
rwpThat turns Capslock into left Control, and left control into Escape.03:17
rwpThe first one is from my Thinkpad laptop keyboard and is also turning one of the keys into Super_L aka mod4 for use with i3.03:17
rwpThe second one is from my desktop with the standard ANSI keyboard.03:18
rwpAdditionally I actually set up my keyboard using this command set. https://termbin.com/ndxd03:19
rwpI start with the "setxkbmap" to set my compose key and also Control-Alt-Backspace enables Zap again.  Then adjust with the xmodmap the left Control and Escape.03:20
rwpFinishing up by speeding up the autorepeat rate to something I like using better.  The default is so slow!  After you try the slightly faster autorepeat you won't want the default! :-)03:20
rwpWafficus, Are you using a Desktop Environment?  Which one?  Or a simpler Window Manager?  Which one?03:21
rwpI am using a window manager only, i3 for me, and it does not load .xmodmap for me but I must run those commands myself.03:22
rwpProbably the best universal location is the ~/.xsessionrc file.  Place commands to run there.03:22
rwpThe ~/.xsessionrc file is sourced by the /etc/X11/Xsession script, which is a #!/bin/sh script, meaning use only portable /bin/sh shell there, no bash-isms!03:24
Wafficusrwp: yep that did it03:24
Wafficusthe single xmodmap ~/.xmodmap command rather03:24
rwpGood enough!03:24
Wafficusnow I probably have to just modify an ~/.xinitrc for now03:24
rwpI am also using ~/.xinitrc file but so few people do that I always ask first. :-)03:25
rwpSo to confirm you are NOT using lightdm or other xdm graphical login manager, but are logging into the text console and then running either "xinit" or "startx"?03:25
WafficusI am using lightdm to login for this particular computer ys03:26
Wafficusyes03:26
Wafficus(on my gentoo laptop, i use startx)03:26
Wafficusthis is my Devuan "Just Works" desktop03:26
rwpIf using startx then it will look for and find ~/.xinirc but if using lightdm then it won't but will look for a ~/.xsessionrc file instead.03:27
Wafficusgotcha, I'll have to check with a reboot03:28
rwpOne of these days I am going to walk through all of the control paths in all of the start scripts and try to document all of the many possible paths through everything.03:29
rwpBoth /etc/X11/Xsession and /usr/bin/startx are simple scripts and so if you have any questions feel free to browse the scripts to see what they do.03:29
rwpAnd just for more distraction there is also ~/.xsession which must be a shell script but may be a bash script but is always a separate process so cannot set environment variables.03:31
Wafficusyeah after restarting it didn't work unfortunately03:39
Wafficusso it must be an Xsession idea in that case03:39
rwpIf you are using lightdm then that is started from Xsession which uses the ~/.xsessionrc file.03:43
rwpTesting would not require a reboot but simply logging out of X and the logging back in again.03:44
Wafficusgotcha03:45
Wafficuswill make a ~/.xsessionrc file that literally just has "xmodmap ~/.xmodmap"03:45
Wafficusthen just log out and see if that does it03:45
rwpI am pretty sure that in the different Desktop Environments some automatically detect and load a .xmodmap file and some do not.03:46
rwpBut it is safe to load it twice if you switch to one that does it automatically.03:47
Wafficusgotcha good to know03:47
Wafficuswill log out and come back one sec03:47
Wafficusyep that worked03:53
Wafficusthanks rgh[m]03:53
Wafficusrwp: *03:53
rwpYou are most welcome! :-)03:54
rwpHonestly I don't know why the DE authors make doing customizations so difficult.  But they do.03:56
WafficusI don't do it too often these days. I was in a big rush to do stuff like that when I was into AwesomeWM03:56
rwpTake PATH for example.  That ~/.xsessionrc file is also the right place to set a customized PATH if you wish to have $HOME/bin in it for example.03:57
Wafficusbut ever since shifting to Emacs Window Manager on my Gentoo laptop, I stopped really tweaking stuff and just focusing on the core utils involved03:57
systemdlete2during install, I get:  dpkg-divert: warning: diverting file '/sbin/start-stop-daemon' from an Essential package with rename is dangerous, use --no-rename     WARNING **: Configuring 'pkgsel' failed with error code 103:57
rwpI used awesome window manager but I hated it because of the way it did things.  I am very much happier with i3 over awesome wm.03:57
systemdlete2(and I don't recall doing anything that would rename something)03:57
Wafficusgotcha rwp yeah I stopped using Awesome, since Lua is terrible. Hated that language so much03:58
rwpI had other complaints about awesomewm but will ask systemdlete2 if there are any other messages around it that might clue us into the problem?03:59
WafficusElisp is just so nicer, especially with Emacs to boot. But yeah, the only DE's I've used on this box include Openbox and MATE. MATE is just more so if I want to record audio really quick, and Openbox + Tint2 for general surfing03:59
Wafficussystemdlete2: what type of computer are you installing Devuan onto?03:59
Wafficusalso, what specific ISO did you use to install Devuan as well?03:59
rwpWafficus, Are you using MATE with exwm?  Is that what I am understanding?  If so then that is probably why you are needing to load the .xmodmap explicitly.04:00
ErRandirwhat does /sbin/start-stop-daemon now point to?04:00
systemdlete2Wafficus:  It is a vbox VM.  The install image is the 64bit net install04:00
rwpHopefully /sbin/start-stop-daemon is a real executable program and not a symlink.04:00
systemdlete2I've restarted that step (package selection)04:00
Wafficusrwp: I have exwm tied to my config, so technically it does exist within MATE as well, but I'm not really using it for window management. I should actually tweak my config to not even use exwm on computers like this to be honest04:00
rwpBut dpkg-divert will actually rename things and not symlink them.04:00
Wafficussystemdlete2: gotcha04:00
systemdlete2rwp:  I did not choose to symlink my bin and sbin directories, if that is related to your comment04:01
rwpsystemdlete2, It is almost related because I would have asked that question next. :-)04:02
systemdlete2:)04:03
systemdlete2Than04:03
systemdlete2ugh... more btrfs crap going on in my current VM...04:03
systemdlete2The restart of pkgsel seems to be going well this time.  Maybe it was a momentary glitch during downloading the packages.04:04
systemdlete2(servers in the middle of updates?  idk)04:04
rwpSo...  I grep through my system and I don't find any dpkg-divert commands for start-stop daemon: find /var/lib/dpkg/info -name '*.postinst' -exec grep dpkg-divert {} +04:05
rwpTherefore I think this is not something being done by a package postinst script.04:06
systemdlete2It is something being done, by and by, by some step of the install process.04:08
systemdlete2It is good to know it is not a package post install error, though.04:09
systemdlete2if this were a problem with the ISO or some software on the ISO, I think we'd know about it by now...04:09
systemdlete2That is why I suspect it was something external.04:09
rwpAre you preseeding install answers externally?04:11
rwpI have been doing server installs (without Desktop Environment) and have not had any similar problem.04:12
rwpAnd here in real life I am being called away...04:12
systemdlete2no04:19
systemdlete2I do my installs face-to-face with the installer.04:19
systemdlete2although, I admit, using an answers file makes sense.04:19
systemdlete2that's how alpine and some others do it04:20
systemdlete2interesting... the packages are done and I get that same error message in console 4.  But the installer GUI seems to be happy this time.04:21
rwpsystemdlete2, Which installer image did you use? Please say devuan_beowulf_3.1.1_amd64_netinstall.iso as that is most convenient for me. :-)04:42
rwpsystemdlete2, What options did you select at the "Software selection" step?  The defaults?04:57
rwpsystemdlete2, I am doing a test install using that ^^ installer with the default software selections.05:04
systemdlete2yes, that was the iso I use05:05
systemdlete2I disabled ssh and enabled console productivity tools05:06
systemdlete2rwp:  You might be wasting your time.  I think it was more likely to be a problem with the package servers.  It was a temporary glitch; I was able to complete the install after that.05:07
rwpI might be wasting machine cycles as the machine is running cranking on it.  But there is little for me to do.05:08
rwpIt's very quick to run through the installer and now it is simply cranking through things itself without any further attention from me.05:08
systemdlete2as you like.  Somehow I doubt you will encounter the same conditions I did, if my theory is accurate.05:09
systemdlete2otoh, maybe something has changed on the servers that could cause the problem.  All I know is that, up to now, I have not encountered this problem.05:11
systemdlete2And I've installed numerous systems with the same ISO, on about 3 hardware systems and multiple VMs.05:12
rwpIt's one of those odd problems that is so specific that it seems impossible for it to be a simple glitch.05:12
fluffywolfshould I expect any issues installing devuan on a pentium mmx?  a fairly small install with icewm, no major desktop stuff, of course.  will firefox even run on a such a cpu these days?  browsing might be hard.  heh.06:13
gnarfacei think it should work if you have swap06:14
gnarfaceit won't be very fast but there's things you can do to improve it, like use zram for swap if you have enough ram06:14
gnarfacehow much ram does it have?06:14
fluffywolf160MB06:22
fluffywolfI have a ssd for it, so it'll have fast swap.06:23
gnarfacehmmm, zram is faster, and swap is hard on ssds, but maybe there is nothing to be done for it with only 160MB of ram06:24
gnarfacewith only 160MB of ram, i don't think "apt-get update" can complete unless you change a config field06:24
fluffywolfI just ebayed a replacement for my old mini laptop; been looking for one for a while.  it's not very useful as a real machine, but it sure is cute.06:24
fluffywolfhttp://fw.bushytails.net/laptop02.jpg  there's my old one.  it's the same width as an atx case.06:25
gnarfacetheoretically the kernel i think should boot with anything that is at least pentium1 or later?06:25
fluffywolfhttps://imgur.com/E4jE5N1  someone else's "look how tiny and cute it is" picture.06:25
gnarfacetrackball, i like it06:26
systemdlete2rwp:  Sorry, I nearly forgot this, but I am using encryption on a portion of the disk image06:27
rwpsystemdlete2, My test installation finished with no problems of any sort.06:28
systemdlete2and lvm06:28
fluffywolffor scale, that's an 8" diagonal LCD.06:28
systemdlete2rwp: did you use encrypted fs at all?06:29
fluffywolfit's about 1.5 times the size of a cd jewel case.06:29
systemdlete2rwp: did you use lvm?06:29
systemdlete2those might point to a different result, but idk06:29
systemdlete2I don't see why06:29
rwpfluffywolf, I think with only 160MB it will be hard to run any current web browser.  X should run though.06:29
fluffywolfdownside:  it's not easy to type on when you have big paws.  :)06:29
rwpsystemdlete2, I did not install LVM on this test image.  But if it is encrypted then that would dictate using LVM so only the PV needs to be unlocked.06:30
fluffywolfmy old one is a p-mmx 133, 80mb max ram.  the new one I just got is a p-mmx 266 with 160mb ram.  double the specs!06:31
gnarfaceoh... what is the video chip?  x will run unless it has one of those cirrus logic video cards06:31
gnarfacethey removed the cirrus logic driver at some point before beowulf06:31
gnarfacesuper annoying06:31
fluffywolfneomagic.06:31
rwpWhich Neomagic?  One is terrible and the other less terrible.06:31
gnarfaceoh cool, you're probably in luck06:31
fluffywolfit's an entirely useless machine, other than the cuteness factor.06:31
gnarfaceat least the neomagic driver is still in the repo06:32
fluffywolfnm216006:32
rwpI guess my old AMD 233MHz machine with the Neomagic driver was before there was a free driver for it.  I had endless difficulties about it.06:32
fluffywolfit's a machine that never really caught on...  it's a full laptop.  two pcmcia slots and everything.  decent specs for when it was made.  but teeny tiny.06:33
gnarfacei could imagine it's an old enough driver you might run into problems with compositing window managers06:33
fluffywolfI use icewm on everything; it has very minimal hardware requirements.06:33
fluffywolfif I rebuild the battery pack with modern cells, it'll run for like two days.  :)06:34
fluffywolfI rebuilt the one for my older model, but I used chinese cells that I had handy, and one shorted after a whole two cycles.  china.06:34
fluffywolfthis one will get genuine panasonic made-in-japan cells.06:35
iv4nshm4k0v?  Pentium MMX?  Wasn't the support for that dropped sometime around 2015?06:35
gnarfacei'm kinda jealous.  that'll be a neat machine once it is all retrofitted06:36
gnarfacei thought it was just stuff before the pentium but i could be wrong06:36
gnarfaceif you have to rebuild the kernel that will be annoying06:36
fluffywolfI'll have to use another box for the install, as I'm not installing from floppies.  :P06:38
fluffywolfand from what I've heard, it can't do usb cd-rom usefully.06:38
gnarfaceit has a usb port but won't support iso cdroms through it?06:39
gnarfaceyou might be able to still format a USB key as a 100MB ATAPI floppy06:39
gnarfaceactually i think it might support up to 200 or 250MB that way06:39
fluffywolfit doesn't have usb boot06:39
gnarfacein theory anyway06:39
iv4nshm4k0vgnarface: Not just the kernel, unfortunately: pretty much everything 'i386' is built with CPU set to i686 in Debian these days.  (IIRC, that is.)06:39
fluffywolfor usb floppy support for that matter06:39
gnarfacefluffywolf: sometimes it is non-obvious until you actually put a floppy-formatted usb key in06:40
fluffywolfhttps://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html#idm272  "Debian GNU/Linux buster will not run on 586 (Pentium) or earlier processors. "  blah06:40
gnarfacelame :(06:40
fluffywolfusb was a late addition to it, and from what I've heard, the bios pretty much doesn't consider usb to exist - it's just a controller chip the OS can use.06:41
gnarfacehmmm06:41
fluffywolfI don't even have the official floppy drive that will work with it, if I wanted to try from floppies.  heh.06:41
systemdlete2rwp:  let me explain my config.  I have a 20gb virtual vbox disk.  I 2 large partitions and 1 tiny one, in a gpt scheme.  The tiny one is for the uefi bios, and one of the large ones is encrypted, one not.  Then, each large partition is a lvm volume.  /boot and /usr are unencrypted, everything else encrypted.  This is not a call for anyone here to deride my choices; I need this for what I am doing; end.06:41
fluffywolfmuch easier to put the drive in another box with modern usb support.06:41
gnarfaceyea, i guess so probably06:41
* iv4nshm4k0v seeds NetBSD-9.1-i386.iso via Bittorrent, which is claimed to support i486+06:42
systemdlete2rwp:  Guess what?  I'm redoing this exercise, because I had /boot on the encrypted partition the first time.  And guess what -- I get the same error as the first time.06:42
systemdlete2(oops, didn't mean to say "guess what" twice!)06:43
fluffywolf"Debian GNU/Linux stretch will not run on 586 (Pentium) or earlier processors. "  bah.06:43
gnarfaceopenbsd?06:44
fluffywolf"Debian GNU/Linux jessie will not run on 486 or earlier processors. " "Nearly all x86-based (IA-32) processors still in use in personal computers are supported, including all varieties of Intel's "Pentium" series."06:45
fluffywolflooks like it'll have to run jessie.06:45
iv4nshm4k0vgnarface: Of BSDs, only NetBSD seem to support devmapper / LVM, which makes the others no-go for me.06:45
fluffywolfthis is why I asked if there would be issues installing devuan.  lol06:45
iv4nshm4k0vfluffywolf: Yep, that matches what I remember.  Unfortunately, Jessie had the worst Bash issues I ever seen on Debian.06:45
gnarfacequite disappointing they've thrown out support for pentiums06:45
systemdlete2rwp:  And, like the first time I did this, repeating the tasksel part identical to the failed attempt completes the install.06:46
gnarfacei'm sure you could still get beowulf to run on it, it just means you'd have to rebuild everything06:46
* systemdlete2 waves at gnarface o/06:46
fluffywolf"just".06:46
systemdlete2(just saying hi)06:46
iv4nshm4k0vgnarface: Wouldn’t that be a tad Gentoo-like, though?06:47
fluffywolfrealisticly, with the horsepower it has, or the lack thereof, most latest-and-greatest software won't be usable anyway.06:47
fluffywolfoh well, bbl, wolfy bedtime06:48
gnarfaceheh, yea it would definitely be something gentoo makes easier to do06:48
fluffywolfhttps://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2016/05/msg00001.html06:50
fluffywolfbbl06:51
iv4nshm4k0vI myself have several older boxen that I’d like to put to use.  From my limited experience, NetBSD (with pkgsrc) seem like a good enough system for my uses (which is to say, an assortment of network clients and debugging and development tools; SSH, Lynx, Neomutt, tcpdump, GCC for several targets, Perl, Tcl, etc.)06:57
rwpsystemdlete2, Yes, having /boot encrypted does make it harder to use. :-)  But sounds like you have things figured out now. So all good! :-)07:50
systemdlete2what does this mean?  Could not connect to wicd's D-Bus interface. Check the wicd log for error messages09:03
systemdlete2I don't see anything in the log that stands out for me.09:03
systemdlete2wicd is running...09:04
systemdlete2this is on beowulf with xfce09:04
lts-systemdlete2: you should check your dbus as well09:16
systemdlete2dbus is running, but I think I see the problem:  The /etc/network/interfaces file has eth0 configured, so it is probably competing with wicd.  I have disabled wicd in my session startup since I really don't need it anyway.09:20
systemdlete2That said, it might be a good idea if the user were prompted somehow during install as to which way they want to configure their internet09:21
systemdlete2And THAT said...09:21
systemdlete2It goes back to debian, I know, I know...09:21
systemdlete2(along with 10,000 other things that need attention, regardless of whether we are talking about debian or devuan)09:22
lts-AFAIK wicd is a python2 package anyway, so building on it may not last long09:22
systemdlete2"building on it?"09:22
systemdlete2I didn't build anything.09:22
lts-Meaning, "building a system relying on wicd"09:22
systemdlete2lts-:  Everything I installed is stock, straight out of repos.  I have not done much in the way of real customization other than configuring the desktop and adding/removing some software09:23
devaIs there an (semi)automated way of upgrading from jessie to beowulf?10:37
ShorTiei'd do a new install personaly10:37
devaThis is exactly what I would like to avoid ;)10:38
ShorTiei understand, but that is best imho10:38
gnu_srs1deva: I don't think upgrading would be troublsome? apt-get update;apt-get upgrade;apt-get dist-upgrade10:39
ShorTiemake a backup 1st10:40
gnu_srs1Sorry, you have to do jessie->ascii->beowulf for best upgrade.10:40
devagnu_srs1, Assuming that I alter the sources.list to point to beowulf first?10:40
gnu_srs1yes after changing to and upgrading to ascii first.10:41
devaok, thanks. I'll give it a try :-)10:42
devaShorTie, And you are of course absolutely right that a backup first is crucial10:42
WalexLinus Torvalds wrote that real men don't do backups: they uploads their projects to the web and the rest of the world makes copies for them :-)12:25
devaShorTie, gnu_srs1, The upgrade went smoothly. Thank you for your help :-)13:27
ShorTieCool13:28
gnu_srs1:)13:28
Xenguyre: connman:  IIUC, connman detected 2 nameserver settings from my router.  I was able to manually override this, and set it back to 127.0.0.118:05
liberagehey everyone, i recently started to have this strange fascination with the world of debian. But i'm not a huge fan of sysd either18:18
liberageis there a way i could migrate from archlinux to devuan without too much of a hassle (i already split my /home to a partition)18:18
lts-Personally I consider full wipe and new install to be the least hassle. Take full backups first, restore your home and relevant /etc configs, then restore if anything else needs to be restored18:21
lts-YMMV18:21
Night_H4nter@liberage Don't do that.18:22
liberage*visible confusion*18:22
Night_H4nterIt's a major pain in the ass.18:22
Night_H4nterJust make the backups for everything you care about, and perform a "clean" (if one can say this about debian-like installation) install.18:23
liberageWell... i really care about my application's configs because i don't wanna spend reconfiguring everything from the ground up18:24
lts-This sounds like you don't have backups :-)18:25
liberageFor the backups; don't worry i learned the hard way. My main drive wiped itself clean a few weeks ago18:25
liberagei procrastinated re-setting up auto-backups until... well... you can imagine.18:25
liberageThankfully syncthing and nextcloud were really helpful18:26
liberageNow i run vorta and deja-dup. I also run a full disk image every now and then.18:26
onefangSounds like you have done the first and second steps - make backups, restore from them to check they work.18:27
Night_H4nterKeep in mind half of your configs might break upon migradtion.18:27
Night_H4nterEspecially KDE stuff.18:27
Night_H4nterNot sure about others though.18:28
liberageWell that sucks. Guess i'll stay on the arch boat until SHTF or i get tired of it.18:28
liberagei'm on xfce18:28
liberagethough i use arc-gtk-theme, steam, fish, etc..18:28
onefangThat's mostly a case of "different versions of software change the way their configs work sometimes".18:28
onefangI'm particularly annoyed at tmux doing that.  There is always some config option that changed enough for it to throw errors after an upgrade.18:29
liberagei also wanted to ask; sometimes when i try to get a package on debian/devuan, the package name is different when compared to i.e. archlinux. While i understand that this is totally normal, how do i find said package?18:30
liberageother than apt search, of course.18:30
Night_H4nterIg you just search. Debian (and, consequently, Devuan) has some stuff, which I can't recall the name of, that is doing some substitution, but I don't think it's that helpful.18:32
onefangWe have a web page for searching packages.  I can't recall it off the top of my head.18:32
liberageAptitude?18:32
gnarfaceyou can do regexp searches18:33
Night_H4nterBuild systems tend to do similar stuff, but not the package managers.18:33
Night_H4nterSo you should mostly rely on regex search.18:33
liberagemoreover on packages; if when i'm unfortunate enough that a package isn't in the repos, am i forced to compile it from source? if so how do i avoid resolving the deps myself?18:33
gnarfaceany good source will already have a ./debian/ directory18:34
onefanghttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html18:34
gnarfaceotherwise you're gonna have to learn how to add it18:34
Night_H4nterBtw, while I'm here and the chat is alive (maybe even some ov devs are here?), what do you guys think about doing s6/s6-rc init?18:35
Night_H4nterIs there any chance it will be supported?18:35
onefangI think it is already.18:35
gnarfaceit's already supported18:35
Night_H4nterIt's not even in repos.18:35
Night_H4nters6 is.18:36
Night_H4nterNo other tools.18:36
gnarfacehmmm18:36
Night_H4nterNo s6-rc, no linux/portable utils, no init.18:36
gnarfacechances of them appearing in devuan if they get accepted by debian are close to 100%18:36
Night_H4nterOh...18:36
liberageIs backports on devuan testing a sensible thing?18:36
Night_H4nterDebian.18:36
Night_H4nter...18:37
gnarfaceliberage: no, nonsensical18:37
Night_H4nterThen ig it never happens.18:37
liberageSame for debian i imagine.18:37
liberagegnarface,18:37
Night_H4nterNot in the foreseeble future, at least.18:37
gnarfaceliberage: yes, there's only backports for stable18:37
liberageGot it, thanks.18:38
Night_H4nterLike I really, really don't wanna use artix just because it has the init I like. Hell.18:38
Night_H4nterIf things keep going this way, I'll end up on nixos/guixsd.18:38
gnarfaceNight_H4nter: i'm sure you could build it yourself.  why isn't debian accepting it?  it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me unless they replaced it with something else18:38
gnarfaceNight_H4nter: for that matter, are you sure it's not just all in the same package?18:39
Night_H4nterw818:40
Night_H4nterI hope it's not.18:40
buZzisnt artix a distro18:40
buZzoh, nevermind18:40
Night_H4nter?18:41
gnarfacethere was other people using s6 here, maybe someone has the missing packages18:42
gnarfacemaybe it's like debian's openrc build that relies on sysvinit for startup and shutdown18:42
gnarfacemaybe it's as easy to replace with whatever you're used to18:42
Night_H4nterDebian used to have a file list on the package page.18:43
Night_H4nterCan't find it now.18:43
onefangThat search page I posted, shows the file list.18:43
onefangTry it.18:43
buZzhttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/package-query.html?c=package&q=s6=2.7.2.2-318:44
buZzquite some files18:44
Night_H4nterOh, thanks.18:44
Night_H4nterAs I said, this is just s6 alone.18:45
Night_H4nterNothing else.18:45
buZzwhat else is there?18:45
gnarfaceprobably a replacement for sysv-rc?18:46
gnarfacelike the gentoo build of openrc has18:46
gnarfaceNight_H4nter: to be clear, it probably works anyway.  you know that right?  it's fine if this is a matter of personal choice.18:47
gnarfaceit's just more work for you.18:47
Night_H4nter@gnarface What are you talking about?18:48
gnarfacethe s6 package in the repo, it probably still works18:48
Night_H4nterI never said it doesn't.18:48
gnarfacejust making sure.  i can understand you not wanting to use it if it relies on sysv parts.  i just didn't want you to think it's just gutted18:48
Night_H4nterI said it's not enough to build a proper system on it.18:49
gnarfaceis it really that hard to compile the missing part?18:49
Night_H4nterLike good luck compiling all other tools, then writinig your own scripts for everything, etc.18:49
liberageit's really a shame that Nix doesn't let you choose your preferred init, given that it's considered to be a "1337 h4x0r" distro (not newbie friendly)18:53
liberagei don't hate systemd but i also think that something like OpenRC could replace it any day.18:53
Night_H4nter@liberage OpenRC? Doubt it. But the problem is that nobody wants to do anything for it, as it seems, most of nix users don't particularly care about what's going on under the hood.18:55
Night_H4nterJust edit the system config file, rebuild reboot.18:56
liberageidk, i really found openrc comfortable and intuitive.18:58
Night_H4nterIIRC OpenRC will need a dozen other packages to, at least, match s6 suite functionality.18:59
Night_H4nterAnd several tens of packages to match that of systemd.19:00
tuxd3vsystemd is a monter is size... it is not a init system only..19:01
tuxd3vfor the Images I saw till now, systemd uses a lot more ram than what people think..19:02
fsmithredlast I heard about s6, development was slow. We plan to support it when it's ready.19:03
fsmithredliberage, devuan installer does give you a choice of init systems. sysv, openrc or runit19:04
gnarfaceoh it's got runit now?19:04
gnarfacecool19:04
XenguyMeanwhile I've been under a rock, and just now reading about this /usr merge stuff...19:04
Xenguye.g. https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/19:04
Night_H4nterIdk what you mean by "ready", but it's now perfectly usable.19:04
XenguyNot sure what to think, some kind of corporate-think here, or ...?19:04
liberagefsmithred, i know, i was talking about NixOS19:05
Night_H4nter@tuxd3v It uses more memory, though, not enough to become a concern anywhere except embedded/iot applications...19:06
Night_H4nterOh, wait...19:06
Night_H4nterkek19:06
Night_H4nterBut jokes aside, the concern on dekstop/server is not the ram consumption, but the actual code quality.19:06
Night_H4nterAlso don't forget systemd isn't just an init.19:07
tuxd3vNight_H4nter, you right it isn't just a init, but a hog monster..19:08
Night_H4nterIt's a "system layer". Basically an API.19:09
Night_H4nter**Bad** API.19:09
liberageNight_H4nter, yeah why the hell does sysd have to be a login manager, boot loader, and whatever else?19:11
liberagePID 1 should be PID 1. full stop.19:11
tuxd3vXenguy, yeah there are a initiative to merge, Essential Binaries + System Binaries in /usr..19:13
Xenguytuxd3v, I can't tell whether that's a bad idea or not, hrm19:16
tuxd3vXenguy, the issue for me , is that they will mix binaries of all species together..but I don't know if it will have further aproval by other distributions..19:21
XenguyFedora started this apparently19:21
Night_H4nter@liberage It's not only a pid1.19:56
Night_H4nterIt's a huge suite of applications.19:56
Night_H4nterDon't call systemd an init system.19:56
onefangPersonally I call systemd "something to be discussed in #devuan-offtopic, not here".  B-)19:57
MinceRhopefully you don't refer to it that way in #devuan-offtopic :>20:03
Night_H4nterkek20:13

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!