libera/#maemo-meeting/ Wednesday, 2022-02-23

reinobHi there. I don't know who's online right now, but I'm drafting the German version of the board change notice.18:40
macros_I am and I can help you with German18:41
reinob@juice sent an English version, but that one referred to ¶7(6), and I had understood that what we want to be notarized is a regular change of board, after a GA18:41
reinobor am I missing something?18:41
reinobthanks macros!18:41
reinobanother question, which will be relevant is whether @macros wants to be in the board of directors too (so we'd be four, the more the merrier :). I have nothing against it, and I do see advantages in it. But I'm not sure if anyone would have a problem with that?18:43
macros_I would be happy to be in a board of 4. Maybe I will send a short introduction mail before the meeting.18:44
reinob+1 you have my vote18:45
reinobI have a draft here:
joerg>>what we want to be notarized is a regular change of board, after a GA<< yes, that's probably the smartest approach18:50
juicemereinob, we had to do it by §7(6) because there is no time to have a regular meeting with the long lead-time between invitation and meeting.18:51
joergI think a board of 4 is even more paperwork, but up to you18:51
reinobOh. Now I am confused. We do have a GA planned for March 17th don't we?18:52
juicemehence do that now, and as we now have scheduled meeting coming up, do the vothe there to confirm the appointees.18:52
joergjuiceme: there is enough time if you already sent out the invitation last friday the latest18:52
juicemeyes March 17th, but thatr is too late for the paperwork18:52
joergand can agree on a meeting with your notary within due time (few days) after the GA18:53
juicemehmm OK now I am confused :)18:53
juicemeso this is to be the new plan?18:53
joergthere are a few options, and I have to say I'm out of order today, way too tired18:54
joergI sketched two approaches last time, and I don't know which of both you opted for18:55
reinobI *personally* have no preference, but (1) we have a formal invitation from you well in advance for 17. March, (2) the deadline is mid-April or so, which means that (3) if we prepare the document that would/will be the result of the GA now-ish and prepare our notary appointments for a few days after GA but well before deadline. Then we can manage all OK18:55
juicemereinob, ah yes we can indeed have board of 4, nothing against that18:55
macros_Great :)18:55
juicemereinob, yes we can proceed with that plan too.18:56
joergreinob: that been one of the two options I had in mind18:56
reinobthe advantage of ¶7(6) is that we avoid the risk of not reaching quorum in the GA. The advantage of a GA is that it looks cleaner..18:56
reinobfrom those around here NOW, any specific preference?18:56
macros_We can still invoke §7(6)  if we fail to meet the quorum, so I would opt for a GA18:57
juicemeI think the notarization round might take longer that way because I think the minutes of GA meeting need to be approved by more than one member, hence need to send paperwork around18:57
juicemeif we just did §7(6) it would be enough for me to notarize it and send to AGKL18:58
juicemeand similarily the appointed would need to send *separately* your notarized agreements to AGKL18:58
macros_In that case lets do §7(6) and follow up with a GA later to allow the community to confirm.18:58
juicemehence we could forgo the part where we send papers to each other18:58
halftuxhi all18:59
juicemehalftux, hi18:59
halftuxjuice I look into your e-mail right now18:59
macros_hi halftux18:59
juicemegood, does it look OK?18:59
juicemereinob already did some translation attempt
reinobif we go ¶7(6) does it mean only @juiceme needs a notary?19:00
halftuxon the first look I think it is ok19:00
macros_I also took a look, seems fine.19:00
juicemewell except that is geared toward the idea that we only notarize after the GA meeting19:01
reinobright. so we need to clear that first! :)19:01
juicemereinob, I think it is best we all notarize, but can do it separately19:01
macros_Although it speaks about a Mitgliederversammlung(GA) and decisions supported by it, this would not be correct if we use §7(6)19:02
macros_Ah juice was faster ^^19:02
juicemeand most importan is that I do it, you rest can do it in your leasure :)19:02
reinobexactly. OK, so we take juice's letter and translate to German?19:02
juicememacros_, yes :)19:02
juicemereinob, yes19:02
juicemeilmanowar, welcome :)19:03
reinobOK, who wants to write? the rest can fill gaps here? (don't know how comfortable I'd be with posting address, passport number, etc. here. What exactly do we need, so we can send it to whoever does the (German) writing?19:03
reinobhey ilmanowar19:03
ilmanowarWhat's up all 🙂19:04
reinobnot much, the usual §7(6) vs GA stuff :)19:04
joergeven §7(6) needs ALL board members notarized19:06
reinobI'd be happy if some German hands were raised (halftux or macros) for the drafting, but otherwise I'll do it. I count up to 10, which will take me until 19:10 CET.19:06
juicemeso, I already sent my english draft to reinob and halftux, so if we decide to go with board-of-four then we need to take macros in too.19:06
juicememacros_, you were also willing to step forward as board member?19:07
halftuxI will do the translation.19:08
juicemeregarding reinob's thoughts on sending the birthdates/ssn's/passport numbers here in plaintext, that we don't want to do.19:08
halftuxBut does it make sence to go twice to a notary?19:08
juicemeinstead, send me the data by email and I'll put it to the document.19:09
juicemehalftux, I will take the final document to notary and send to AGKL.19:09
macros_Yes I am willing19:09
reinobOK, which data exactly are needed? full name, birth date, id/passport number?, full address or just city, birth location?19:09
joergamd my previous comment helped me remember the rationale behind THE plan: use §7(6) now, incl for paperwork, and nevertheless have a GA with the SAME board members so nothing will change and nothing to notify to AGKL19:09
juicemethey *might* want acceptance document from you, this can be made separately19:09
juicemejoerg, yes *exactly*19:10
macros_ok no problem19:10
joergreinob: call notary, ask them. They ALL know about Vereinsvorstandsaenderungsmeldung19:11
juicemeyes this would be good thing to do19:11
juicemesince the finnish notary will *not* know about it :)19:11
joergreinob: YOU go to YOUR notary and have them provide the paper to you, help you fill the data, approve it after you signed and then even bnotary sends the papers to AGKL19:12
juicemeall they do here in finland is check my passport and the details in the document, put in appropriate signature that proves it is me and in somewhat in my senses. Then I send the notarized document to Germany19:13
juicemeI think the plan is clear now.19:13
reinobBut the notary here certainly won't have a document with Maemo and 7(6) in it. I'm missing the order here. Or I'm hungry.19:14
joergand you probably need to send juiceme a pdf of the prefilled form, so his notary can print it out, have juiceme sign it and send it back via snailmail19:14
juicememight also be good to do it that way19:14
joergI'll help with drafting the document details19:15
joergit's basically trivial19:15
joergplease /query me 20:00, this makes a loud noise so I might wake up. AFK19:16
joerg>><juiceme> halftux, I will take the final document to notary and send to AGKL.<< again, every board member needs to do this19:21
joergunless you plan to send ONE document around in circles19:22
joergjuiceme: please send me your draft19:23
macros_Wouldn't it be better to send one document around?  I never have been to a notary yet, but I guess they will charge 4 times if everybody of us visits one.19:23
macros_Also reinob and I live very close, we could just hand it over19:23
reinobI've sent Juiceme and Halftux my personal data, to be included in the draft if/as necessary19:24
joergmarthey will charge 4 times anyway, that's what I said when you stepped up for the 4th seat in board19:25
joergsending one document around won't help19:25
joergmacros_: ^^^19:25
joergit costs the eV and thus the community 40 bucks per board member, plus 50€ for AGKL fee19:26
joergmaybe more19:27
juicemejoerg, just sent the draft to you19:28
joergthis is the main reason we don't want to do the complete process *twice*, for §7(6) and again for GA19:29
juicemealso to macros, halftux, reinob19:29
joergnow for good: AFK until 20:0019:29
juicemeI'll head off to bed soon too19:29
macros_This seems weird to me, as I thought a notary only has to confirm that the document is correct and doesn't charge a fee per board member. Why a fee per member, can you show me a link/keyword I can look up?19:29
juicemeif/when you have something for me, reach for me here or send mail; Iäll process that on the morning19:30
joergno, the notary confirms that you are a real person with an ass to sue outa the water when you fsck up the eV19:30
halftuxone fee if we meet all together at a notary19:30
juicememacros_, as each one of us goes to notary, all of those taker the fee19:30
halftuxbut this will cost us more19:30
juicemehalftux, *absolutely* :)19:31
macros_ok so reinob and I can share the fee if we visit the notary together. I will gladly donate the 20€ (or 40€ if needed) to the e.V. as "Aufwandsverzichtspende"19:34
reinobsounds good macros! I'll donate too.19:36
reinobI still somehow have the feeling I need to be talked like a robot. Like take this document, go to the notary, say this or that. Go.19:37
halftuxjuiceme, is your pgp key from valid19:50
reinobin case you send something private to me, use reinob@bbmk19:51 Its private and I own the server.19:52
joergso, I'm back20:01
siceloHello o/20:01
macros_hi sicelo20:02
siceloHow are you20:02
juicemehalftux, I am not sure aout the pgp validity... it used to be but I have not sent/received pgp-encrypted mail for some time and have different laptop now... cannot remember if I saved the private keys somewhere...20:02
juicemesicelo, hi20:02
joergwhere to send the edited template to?20:03
joergin short, you probably need to add full snailmail adress of all persons and the eV20:05
juicemesend the final thing to me by email20:05
joergand a signature for each of you20:05
joergreinob: I've sent the edited version per email, you should ASAP translate it and contact a notary, asking them if this looks ok so far20:09
joergwho's secretary or rather the one that receives eV snailmail, keeps the bank account credentials etc pp?20:10
reinobthanks Joerg. I guess secretary would be juiceme, as he must have all that, having been alone for the past few years..20:11
joerg:nod: I'd hope so20:11
joergreinob: please find the URL to the "useful info about eV board change" I linked to here a few weeks ago20:12
joergit might have even a few additional hints regarding what needs to be in that paper20:12
joergwait... chanlog search should do it20:13
reinobI have the link. I stored it in my bookmark manager, but didn't look in detail yet :)20:13
joerggreat :-)20:14
joergcould you please share it :-D20:15
joergI don't find it anymore20:15
siceloIs meeting still on?20:17
* sicelo will have to leave in a bit20:18
siceloI read the backscroll. What's the final decision about 4th board member?20:18
macros_joerg: According to and only member of the board in "vertretungsberechtigter Anzahl"=two have to confirm the board change to a notary and send that to the "Amtsgericht", I guess it would be the same for AGKL20:19
siceloRegardless, I suppose I can leave my vote - it's a yes for all 3 (or 4)20:20
joergsicelo: sorry, seems this meeting started early and ended before it started and ... well, I wasn't too bright today so can't tell about details20:20
joergmacros_: I talked to the lady who sent the 600€ move-your-lazy-asses fine, and that's what she told me20:21
halftuxI could also step back for macros no problem for me20:22
joergI thought you should have noticed, no?20:22
joergI'd prefer to keep you, halftux20:22
macros_I would prefer it too20:22
macros_no need to step back20:22
macros_Can you share the contact details of the lady, so I can talk to her? Or better get a mail from her I can forward so you don't have to rely on whisper down the lane20:24
reinobjoerg: sorry about the delay (made a mess using tmux over mosh over termux on fvcking android). The link was:
joergI strongly recommend NOT to pester that lady, particularly since it seems to me you neither have anything new to tell her, nor is there anything she could tell you that you couldn't ask in here20:27
joergI also see problems with the late nomination of macros_ without proper informal approval by a well-attended meeting like we had last time20:29
joergreinob: thanks20:30
reinobwell it's juiceme appointing under §7(6) so it should be perfectly fine for him to appoint whomever he likes to. But this is getting confusing.20:30
joergmaybe not whomever he likes? and wehat if in GA we find out one of the 4 candidates doesn't qualify for board member? for whatever reasons20:31
joergs/candidates/board members (in spe)/20:32
macros_I will just ask the AGKL on their general mail about the issue. This would save us much money and trouble if just two members of the board have to confirm.20:32
sicelo+1 @pestering. It's wholly our fault that we're in this situation. The last thing we want is to cause any aggravation, no matter how minor20:33
macros_confirmed I will not attempt to contact the lady directly.20:33
joergI vote against macros_ already since it seems he insists in ignoring my recommendations. I would STRONGLY advoice everybody NOT to pester AGKL any more than absolutely necessary. Particularly not about stuff I already discussed with those fiolks20:34
reinobguys hold on your horses. I think today is not a good day for IRC.20:34
reinobassuming we have 3 (or 4) elected members. Do we all need a copy of *one and the same* document containing the data about all 3/4, including scanned signatures. And then each one goes to the notary with his copy? I'd need an answer to this precise question.20:36
joergI also suggest to consider it's best common practice in all such elections to not enter a party/eV/whatever and immediately apply for a elected position. Smells fishy to any bystander reviewing what went on with the eV20:38
macros_@joerg: I do not ignore your recommendations, in fact I agreed to you before you wrote the senctence. But please allow me to pose questions or present alternatives. I will always follow reason.20:38
halftuxAll will have the same letter with the new announced directors board. I think scanned signatures are not needed only your real one. But we could ask the notary for this what is best.20:40
joergwhich is exactly what I suggested this and last meeting. Alas the carefully drafted plan was changed into ad hoc extending the board, in a meeting that had nothing of a prioper meeting, ended before it been announced to start, no list of attending active memebrs, nothing. I feel a little pissed20:43
joergstuff easily turns into chaos, as you wittness live here. Authorities hate one thing, particularly: chaos20:44
joergso do I20:44
reinobwell this is still an informal meeting. The need for preparing candidates to be elected etc. would make sense in the context of a GA. §7(6) is pretty much ad-hoc. But we can vote, now, whoever is present, for each of the candidates. Maybe nobody wants me and I'm here trying to make sense of this.20:45
joergI'm out. This turns into a mess20:46
reinobBut assuming things go on as expected, and assuming that halftux will be 100% in there, and is German, then I'd suggest he prepare the translation of the document, with the names of all (but no signatures), and then each one of us goes to the notary and hopes for the best.20:46
macros_I think thats a good way to proceed. And my name is easily added/deleted from the document following juicemes decission if he wants to have me on board or not. In any case I will be there to support.20:47
halftuxokay sounds good20:48
joergok, so you don't need any more guidance or advice. Fine with me20:48
reinobJoerg: I think we are all 99% in agreement with how to proceed. We just need to have the details spelled out step by step, and I think we almost have that. MAINLY THANKS TO YOU20:49
siceloBtw, what was the specific reason we agreed to meet for? Tbh, I've been too busy recently ,so I might have lost track a little. What do our minutes say?20:49
halftuxI think because I was to late for the last meeting20:50
reinobre. macros: each one can have his opinion. I think he'll do just fine and I trust him. You may have another opinion. But for that we can discuss and/or vote (or let juiceme dictate :). But none of this is or should be personal FFS20:50
siceloI think there's something we needed to achieve today. E.g. a vote or something? Or not?20:51
joergreinob: obviously not20:52
reinobsicelo: we need to establish who is going to be in the board of directors, appointed by Juiceme by his special §7(6) powers.20:52
siceloI just hope as things stand, we achieved them? In a way that's legally acceptable. If not, please let's silve that.20:53
macros_Well it was planed that today juiceme appoints the emergency board members according to §7(6) as now every potential new baord member is present.20:53
halftuxjoerg, you can still write some draft because you talked to the lady, you know what she would like to have and you have the most experience.20:53
joerghalftux: you being late last meeting would have been an even better argument for macros_ to rise his hand LAST MEETING20:53
macros_legally we should be fine, even without any meeting the bylaws allow juiceme to appoint new board members as the board is currently not functional.20:54
reinobJuice is obviously there. Halftux is, for what I can understand, 100% there. I'm sorta implicitly there, and will do it with pleasure for long-term. Macros is new in the eV, but not in the community, and seems interested and (to me) trustworthy. Last meeting we told him to consider and wait until today, where he announced his interest. But this interest he had already last week, it's us who told him20:55
reinobto take time to consider.20:55
joergand I stand by my aboe argument that board members should not be 1 week active members, for a number of reasons, some of which we see here. Also we shouldn't change the board we agreed upon in last virtual-GA meeting (only not been a GA because of short invitiation lead time)20:56
macros_joerg I wanted to be sure what I sign up for because if I do sign up for something I stand behind it. Therefore I asked about the duties last meeting and announced that I will think it over till this meeting, which I did. I am now sure that I would be ready for all duties of a board member and want to support the e.V. this way.20:56
reinobOK so put another way. Would the present candidates "withstand" a regular GA election? despite having so few members, I think all 4 would be accepted. But we need to decide before we all leave or tell each other to fvck off ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :)20:58
joergI promised the lady of AGKL I will guide this through the process to keep the 8weeks, if she would have the grace to grant those. Or I will report to her as soon as I think I can't. Tell me what I shall do, until friday, per email20:58
reinobcan we quickly have a roll call here? (of eV members). I think some may have left and this is not the best situation to decide re. 4th member.21:00
* reinob is here, awake, but doesn't have much time left.21:01
joergthe plan was pretty clear cut last meeting, we already found our candidates in the meeting before and we agreed that those TWO candidates must accept the appointment and we all need to agree that there won't be any changes to the board, between what we decided last friday and the GA.21:01
joergif the plan gets changed now, just let me know. If not, also let me know. I'll act accordingly21:02
joerguntil them I'm out21:03
ilmanowarTo me both options are OK, I feel we can finalize21:03
reinobwhatever happens, you'll be in the loop, Joerg.21:03
reinobI think juiceme and halftux are gone. I would have liked to hear/read their opinion.21:04
halftuxwhat should I say this meeting was a little bit like chaos21:05
ilmanowarPlease take a decision on macros21:06
halftuxI think joerg made his opinion clear, when we would like his help we should stay like last meeting.21:06
ilmanowarAnd then I think we should vote to confirm the board members or add him21:06
macros_I hold no grudge if you vote me out, after all joerg has done much for the e.V. by getting us the 8 weeks, I will still be here and support if needed.21:07
halftuxI am fine with macros, he is long time at maemo. But I don't know if it makes now things more complicated.21:07
ilmanowarThank you macros_ appreciated21:08
halftuxI also would like to know the opinion from juice because he is the one who decides for the new board.21:09
ilmanowarCan/should we vote?21:09
macros_I think that would give the meeting a somewhat good conclusion. Then we have decission to go forward with21:10
reinobIf it improves the situation, then I'm also for voting macros out. But for the record: I don't think it improves or worsens the situation. Maybe when the issue with AGKL is solved, someday we can have a proper GA and if board changes are needed (for whatever reason), then he can jump in.21:11
ilmanowarWe are risking having another meeting, which would not be bad if we had the time.21:11
ilmanowarreinob: unfortunately it costs money.21:12
reinobyup, I'll pay the costs.21:12
reinoband the beer if we ever hold a physical meeting :)21:13
macros_That should not be a reason, I promise to equal it out.21:13
halftuxyeah maybe shifting this decision to the next GA would be best. Without juice I feel not comfortable to vote now.21:13
ilmanowarThat was also the reason to have long term members. Therefore I can only say that 4 b. members are better than 3.21:13
ilmanowar+1 for the physical meeting21:14
reinobOK. I send an e-mail to juiceme now, so he can read it in the morning and then we continue per e-mail, at least with those affected by this decision now. Hopefully we have a *one, single * paper to translate (or translated) by tomorrow, and we make our appointments. I'll be away next week and don't want to be close to a computer if I can.21:15
halftuxatm I have the feeling we are only 4 people here 3 future board members and one active member21:15
reinobOK with me e-mailing Juiceme and closing the meeting NOW?21:16
macros_Yes ok with that. Thank you for writing the mail.21:16
halftuxyeah I am fine we see what juice would like to do.21:16
ilmanowarThen guys, can I go? In this part of the earth is pretty late.21:19
reinobyup, good night! I go too.21:19
ilmanowarI was waiting for a vote 🙂21:19
macros_good night everybody. And thanks for waiting ilmanowar!21:19
ilmanowarOK, thanks to you. Bye guys21:20
siceloilmanowar:  i also support keeping to the 3 members for now21:20
siceloWe can adjust later on:-)21:21
macros_later would then be in a year at the next GA, I don't want to cause superflous paperwork for joining midway ;)21:22
halftuxthx and good night21:22
siceloSounds like a good plan21:23
siceloBtw,did we succeed getting resignations from the departed board members?21:28
halftuxgood question but I don't know maybe it is not needed because they were never offical approved, and from the members before we don't want to bother the family.21:38

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