libera/#maemo/ Thursday, 2019-08-01

* FatPhil hovers over the 'buy now' button... https://www.osta.ee/en/nokia-n900-125817110.html11:23
KotCzarnykinda expensive11:24
FatPhildoes anyone have a spare TV-out cable. None of the ones that I've acquired have had theirs.11:24
KotCzarnyfatphil: any av cable will work11:24
KotCzarnyin the worst you will have to swap red/yellow cinch plugs11:24
FatPhilIt's not cheap, but the last one I bought was 50e, and that was about 4 years ago.11:25
KotCzarnyin .pl you can get almost-unused condition for that price11:25
bencohKotCzarny: that's not really the case in the rest of the world11:26
KotCzarny:)11:26
bencohFatPhil: that sounds like a good deal I'd say11:26
KotCzarnyshall i start snagging them for #maemo folks?11:26
KotCzarnyoh, wow, nokia n-gage (original one) for ~170usd11:28
FatPhilI'm very tempted. I will look at my stash of spare parts, and work out how many "whole" ones I have now. g/f will need replacing in about 2-3 years. I hope this new one will last 5, and I know I have at least one whole spare, so it's not a problem for another 5-7 years.11:28
KotCzarnymadness11:28
bencohKotCzarny: I guess some think of it as a collectable now a days11:28
KotCzarnyquite nice condition tho, almost new11:29
FatPhilSome of the really old ones do seem to have a retro cult following, and prices that match11:29
FatPhil7110for 255e (the slide mouthpiece, oversized screen (for the day) and WAP) here11:31
KotCzarnymadness.11:32
FatPhilKotCzarny: what are BL-5J prices like in .pl? All of ours have turned to pillows.11:32
KotCzarnybatteries are usually bought from china anyway11:33
KotCzarnyso you might refer to:11:33
KotCzarny~polarcell11:33
KotCzarny~ping11:33
KotCzarnydrat. bot missing again11:33
bencohinf^I^I damnbot :)11:33
FatPhilI did pick up a few cheap clone batteries, but they didn't last very long. Probably better VFM than the real ones, as the price difference was 5:1.11:34
KotCzarnymany folks here bought polarcell brand and i havent seen any complaints, only positives11:34
FatPhiloooh, /me reads https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=6556811:35
KotCzarnyyou should check dual 18650 mod for n900 too11:36
KotCzarny;)11:36
KotCzarny5200mAh baby, lasts for weeks ;)11:36
KotCzarnyhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=8657111:37
KotCzarny;)11:37
KotCzarnymore if you can source good 1865011:39
FatPhil"OMG it looks like a bomb made to detonate if you place a call..." :-D11:42
FatPhilI think i discovered a bug the other day. My old back lost the little metal part - I think it contained a magnet for the Hall sensor which should tell the system to unmount the uSD card.11:47
FatPhilbut my card was mounted anyway, even without the magnet.11:48
KotCzarnysensor might be dead too11:48
KotCzarnyor simply something prevented card from umount11:49
KotCzarnymaybe swap?11:49
FatPhilthat's mostly from rusty memory, but I think it's correct. Alas there's not enough logging options available in stock code.11:49
KotCzarnyit's hackable shell script11:51
* FatPhil likes scripts. if your script isn't fast enough, optimise the interpreter/pcode runner, and magically you've made all scripts faster!11:59
FatPhil(assuming step 0 - ensure yor script isn't braindead in the first place)12:00
Maxdamantus21:49:10 < KotCzarny> or simply something prevented card from umount12:38
MaxdamantusVery unlikely to be software at least.12:38
Maxdamantussince the mmc driver itself just disables access based on the sensor.12:38
Maxdamantusno usage checking or anything.12:39
KotCzarnydoes it? i always thought it's just a gpio for os to trigger some actions12:40
MaxdamantusIt does. Unless you modify the omap_hsmmc driver, it's basically impossible to maintain access to the card.12:40
KotCzarnydoes it at least finish pending writes?12:41
MaxdamantusProbably not, depending on what you mean by "pending writes"12:41
KotCzarnythe writes that went from os into driver12:42
MaxdamantusDon't think so.12:42
Maxdamantushttps://android.googlesource.com/kernel/omap/+/glass-omap-xrw14b/drivers/mmc/host/omap_hsmmc.c#142912:44
MaxdamantusSo it just sets that `protect_card` flag, which causes any requests to fail.12:47
MaxdamantusI think I remember ke-recv or something also responding to it in userspace, but ultimately the card is blocked in the kernel anyway at that point.12:49
Maxdamantusso it might be able to additionally force unmount it, but it can't do a clean unmount.12:50
Maxdamantushttps://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?s=e1199d2319f601c0662ec53d481f22bd&p=1457369&postcount=412:51
KotCzarnyit should try to umount card with 1-2s timer before block12:52
KotCzarnyand signal with flashing red led while doing so12:52
KotCzarnythat would be the best course of action12:53
MaxdamantusI imagine the feature is pretty much completely pointless anyway.12:53
KotCzarnynah, it has it's uses12:53
Maxdamantusafaict, the driver is able to reset the state of the controller anyway.12:54
KotCzarnyyeah, but you lose data12:54
Maxdamantusso the only thing I can see it being useful for is allowing the memory card itself to try and persist its writes to non-volatile storage before it loses power, but the stuff in the card's memory is only one part of the chain.12:54
KotCzarnywith umount and visual notification for the user it allows for safe eject12:54
MaxdamantusSure, I'm not arguing against a safe unmount. I'm arguing against a driver-level block of the card.12:55
Maxdamantusbecause there's no point in time where it makes sense to prevent an unsafe unmount.12:55
Maxdamantusif the card is still physically in the slot, why not give it some further chance to unmount?12:56
MaxdamantusPersonally, I don't even really like the automatic unmounting functionality. I basically never take my card out anyway.12:56
Maxdamantus(and I have swap on my card)12:57
KotCzarnyyou dont know how fast user ejects, or if he/she just wants to blow the dust off12:57
FatPhilbut I bet you don't take the back off often either12:57
Maxdamantus(my device doesn't unmount when I take the back cover off; I did that modification to the driver as mentioned in the TMO post, and I might have done something with the mount to make it not automatically unmount, can't remember)12:57
FatPhilhas that propagated to the power kernel? might that be why the hall sensor did nothing?12:58
KotCzarnythe only time when i take the back off is when i change battery or clean the insides12:58
KotCzarnynah, it's his personal modification12:58
Maxdamantuser, no point in time where it makes sense to prevent a safe unmount*13:04
FatPhilat no point does it make sense to prevent an atomic write, alas it's the non-atomic ones that are the problem.13:11
FatPhilbut at that point, you're trying to prevent the user from harming himself when he does something a bit dumb. perhaps training him not to be dumb is better.13:12
sixwheeledbeastsearch "wannasee electronic" re: polarcell bl5j13:12
FatPhilsync on cover removal seems more sensible than do nothing on cover removal13:13
sixwheeledbeast13euro13:13
sixwheeledbeastIIRC13:13
FatPhilsixwheeledbeast: someone here's claiming to have real nokias for that price13:13
sixwheeledbeast"real" ones have less capacity13:13
FatPhilwhich comes as a surprise, they used to be ~35 here13:14
FatPhilreal ones are sometimes sanyo, and sometimes samsung, so not guaranteed to be completely equal.13:14
FatPhil(and probably other OEMs, I've not peeled the labels off many)13:15
sixwheeledbeastpolarcell are a good source of new batteries. I can't imagine Nokia make them any more and while they have 10 year shelf life I would prefer to promote the slightly higher capacity still manufactured product13:19
bencohoh and, finding real nokias can be a pain anyway13:38
bencohI first bought two "genuine" batteries for my n900, I never managed to charge them over ~800mAh13:39
bencohthen moved to polarcell13:39
Maxdamantus23:11:08 < FatPhil> at no point does it make sense to prevent an atomic write, alas it's the non-atomic ones that are the problem.13:59
MaxdamantusNo hardware guarantees collections of writes to be atomic though afaik13:59
Maxdamantusto the extent that any hardware guarantees atomicity of writes, it's basically just writes of sectors on the device.14:00
Maxdamantusthe primitives you normally have to work with is basically just that (blocks are written atomically), and you usually also have some way of knowing that writes up until a particular point in time have been persisted on the device.14:01
Maxdamantus(the latter is basically the hardware version of fsync)14:02
FatPhilanyone got any cranky funky old browser on their phone, and wanna help my webpage be maximally readable?14:07
KotCzarnyinstall netscape navigator 3.x14:09
KotCzarnyand have fun14:09
siceloFatPhil: you have MicroB .. old enough :)14:09
KotCzarnysicelo: you havent seen old unless you've seen nn314:10
KotCzarny(there are older, but i've spent lots of time with nn)14:10
FatPhilI would like arrows rather than +/=/- signs in the change indicators here: http://fatphil.org/beer/stats/Germany_2019-08-01_total.html14:10
KotCzarnyuse utf?14:11
FatPhilat the moment that's a mess, it has both the unicode arrows and the ascii.14:11
FatPhilif arrows work everywhere (not just rendered, but rendered and readable and meaningful) then I'll ditch the +/=/-. Works on w3m (pc) and lynx (n900)14:12
KotCzarnyi've found to not bother14:13
KotCzarnyif you want them to work everywhere, use buttons with images and proper alts14:13
FatPhilI do like the pointing arrow (or triangle) motif in such contexts.14:14
brolin_empeyKotCzarny: Netscape Navigator 3.x is not released for GNU+Linux on ARM.  Note the “on their phone” part of the question asked by FatPhil.  Yes, a desktop computer can be used as a telephone too but I think “phone” as used by FatPhil in this case means a handheld computer.14:14
FatPhilI'd like to avoid images, if possible (even data url ones)14:14
FatPhiloh, if you've got an ancient cranky pc browser, feel free to try on that too.14:15
FatPhilI reckon that if lynx copes, everything will, but I might be wrong.14:15
FatPhilit totally screws up links!14:16
FatPhilthe browser /links/, that is14:16
KotCzarnylinks need proper terminal and settings14:16
KotCzarnyand if you used any js you need elinks14:17
FatPhilFriends don't let friends do any JS ;-)14:18
brolin_empeyKotCzarny: The oldest Web browser is WorldWideWeb.app from 1990 because it is the original Web browser.14:19
sixwheeledbeastsingle arrows would be clearer than double14:24
sixwheeledbeastcss arrows would be better14:32
sixwheeledbeastsymbol and number together probably makes it look too busy14:34
FatPhilgood suggestion. I've tweaked the generator to make swapping in new =+- triplets trivial, I'll try single arrows and triangles, as I've seen triangles a lot14:40
sixwheeledbeastFatPhil: was imagining this https://pastebin.com/SnKXr75r re arrows15:02
FatPhillooks great in a graphical browser, but my g/f will be using lynx on her n900, and the arrows don't come out at all, some alt text might help, I'll add some.15:10
sixwheeledbeasthmm15:11
sixwheeledbeastI am surprised it's pretty basic css, alt text could be + - = I suppose15:12
FatPhilI'll get a blind mate to send her screenreader over some of the alternatives too. I want up and down semantics.15:12
sixwheeledbeastoh I forgot lynx is text only15:14
FatPhilit maps lots of unicode things onto plain old text, and this is the best of the batch so far: http://fatphil.org/beer/stats/Germany_2019-08-01_total.html15:28
sixwheeledbeastmuch better than before15:40
FatPhilThanks for the feedback. I already sent that one to my accesibility hit-squad for their opinion on it. Nothing else coped on the n900 apart from that.15:42
sixwheeledbeast▬ for none movers?15:43
FatPhilblank says everything that absolutely needs to be said!15:43
FatPhilnow trying n900 ssh to home PCs, and w3m/elinks, as that's something I quite often seem to do...15:44
sixwheeledbeasti suppose15:45
FatPhilIt's incredible how many weird platform users I know. I have 3 other IRC channels I'll now go and pester with the same question. I'm sure someone will tell me it's terrible in BeOS or OS/2 Warp!15:51
FatPhilas n900 users (or at least fans) I gave you priority :)15:51
bencohpriority for?15:53
brolin_empeyBeOS and OS/2 are operating systems, not Web browsers.15:58
sunshaviFatPhil: I have w3m running on maemo and also within emacs23 on maemo16:12
DocScrutinizer05oldest web app, thought that was Mozaic16:14
bencohsame16:15
DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)16:16
DocScrutinizer059216:16
bencohMosaic was preceded by WorldWideWeb, the lesser-known Erwise[6] and ViolaWWW.16:16
bencohwell :)16:16
DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser#History16:17
DocScrutinizer05>>The first web browser, called WorldWideWeb, was created in 1990 by Sir Tim Berners-Lee.[5]<<16:18
Elleohttps://worldwideweb.cern.ch/browser/ <-- you can play with an emulation of that here16:18
bencoh:)16:36
FatPhilbencoh: for being guineapigs who are likely to have weird browsing capabilities!17:01
bencoh:]17:02
bencohhow thoughtful! we really appreciate it :)17:03
FatPhilbrolin_empey: occasionally, OSes ship with browsers. They even get taken to court for doing this, if they do it with too much lock-in.17:03
FatPhilcriminey - the .ee auction site has one of these on sale for 120e - I've (fortunately) never seen it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_7280 . I think I've just thrown up a little in my mouth.17:04
bencohwtf o.O17:09
KotCzarnybencoh, lol, you seriously never seen it before?17:10
bencohI don't think I had until now17:13
FatPhilwe humans are blessed with something called "selective amnesia" - tomorrow you will have purged it from your memory.17:25
FatPhilor at least I hope I will have17:25
sicelo~techstaff17:30
sicelohah, i also never saw that 7280 in person, although i've seen the pics.17:31
siceloxes: in page, http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/desktop/ , clicking Next Page or a specific number page results in "connection time out" - this happens for the other category pages as well.17:33
sicelook, scratch that ... if i'm on a socks5 proxy it works. so i guess problem is in my network (no idea how/why)18:43
bencohlooks like we have another garage/builder issue though ... I pushed a packet a few days ago and forgot about it, but it doesn't show up18:53
bencoh(xdg-utils)18:53
KotCzarnysicelo: maybe your operator drops some known packets?19:29
siceloi think the network is just not stable. actually even with the socks proxy, that page is still very slow - so there is some problem on the site iteself19:31
KotCzarnyis it only one particular site?19:33
* DocScrutinizer05 muses about a new law yet to get implemented, that makes code publish mandatory after 7 years no matter what the code for19:55
siceloKotCzarny: well i do have odd issues from time to time with different websites, including google sites.19:56
siceloKotCzarny: does this work well for you? https://maemo.org/packages/source/view/fremantle_extras_free_source/advanced-clock-plugin/0.15.3/20:20
KotCzarnyit asks for login20:21
KotCzarnywhich i apparently forgotten20:21
siceloalright. it's one of the pages which don't seem to be working OK.20:22
sicelooh, plain HTTP seems to be working20:23

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