libera/#maemo/ Wednesday, 2020-02-05

brolin_empeyOksana: KotCzarny: I do not know if it matters in this case but a 1-GB SD card is SDSC (retronym for the original SD standard, before SDHC), which is less common now compared to SDHC and SDXC cards.10:31
brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer05: Well?  Did you see my reply?10:32
MaxdamantusPretty sure it doesn't matter. At a block level, they're all the same (they just differ in maximum size and what filesystems are officially supported), and at a hardware level, they should all be forwards/backwards-compatible.11:25
MaxdamantusThe only reason that you might get SD card compatibility issues afaik is due to software that simply doesn't support large SD devices.11:27
Maxdamantusbut that's not an issue with Linux.11:27
WikiwideYowl!... Fxtec Pro1 has run out of battery. Shut down due to low battery, optimistically. I know charger works, I have used it on weekend right after unpacking.12:11
WikiwideBut it is still deeply unsettling to see Pro1 "dead", unconscious, showing no sign of life. Not even a LED indicator of charging.12:12
KotCzarny serial12:16
KotCzarnyerm, wrong keyboard, sorry12:16
WikiwideLawlz. One keyboard per IRC channel?12:17
sicelo:)12:18
WikiwideStill no sign of life. Anybody else had such a situation?12:23
MaxdamantusCould always try blowdrying the battery.12:25
Maxdamantus(to heat it up)12:25
WikiwideMaxdamantus: What is that, and how?12:26
WikiwideIt has been fifteen minutes already, Do please cease playing dead, my lady...12:26
WikiwideI haven't even seen a possibility of taking battery out, the exterior doesn't look like anything is removable.12:27
MaxdamantusDunno about the Fxtec, but I know that with iPhones, if the battery dies, you can sometimes get them to boot again by heating the battery to raise its voltage.12:27
Maxdamantuswhen I did that with an iPhone I didn't take the battery out, just heated its back.12:28
drathirgood old n900 with their emergency charging mode ^^12:29
WikiwideYes... And Nokia N900 has removable battery. Quite neat. Especially considering that its tiny secondary battery is rusty ruin.12:31
WikiwideShould replace that.12:32
drathirWikiwide: more like pointing to its abber led blinking mode when it try to charge battery with extra slow style in compare to normal charging...12:33
drathirabber/amber*12:33
drathirWikiwide:  its soo useful when You really stress te battery... for example other symbian phones unable to recover from such low battery power...12:35
drathiralso R.I.P. BB(aka old RIM)... [']12:37
WikiwideWhat is going on with BlackBerry? Weren't they making super-secure Android phones lately?12:44
WikiwideI have tried to heat up the Pro1 (I think I will pronounce it like Prawn), I think it has warmed up. No LED indicator though.12:45
drathirWikiwide: their contract with manufacture of phones soon will expire which mean no more phones...12:45
WikiwideWho will be manufacturing phones with BlackBerry patents? I am interested in their unusual slider, Visa-style, which displays either full qwerty, or just one row.12:46
drathirWikiwide: no reneval mean no more phones probably... which is sad, bc rim have good ones...12:57
brolin_empeyMaxdamantus: If you are stuck using old versions of software then you may be unable to use newer standards such as SDHC and SDXC.13:13
Maxdamantusbrolin_empey: the software really doesn't care about SDHC vs. SDXC, unless you're talking about the official filesystems you're meant to use on them.13:16
Maxdamantusbrolin_empey: you can obviously just put whatever filesystem you want on either.13:16
MaxdamantusThe software *might* care about the size of the card, if it's silly software.13:16
Maxdamantus(iirc, SDXC is meant to use exFAT rather than FAT32, so in some sense SDXC implies exFAT, which is obviously not supported by some software)13:18
Maxdamantus(but again, any card that comes with exFAT can just be written over with FAT32)13:18
brolin_empeyI thought the reason that some old devices cannot use SDHC as opposed to what became known as SDSC is because a software change is required to support SDHC even if the software that must be changed is not considered as part of the OS.  I am not using the term “firmware” in this case because the boundary between software and firmware is not clear.13:20
brolin_empeyI meant SDSC versus SDHC and later, i.e., SDXC.13:22
MaxdamantusI'm pretty sure they're all backwards- and forwards-compatible.13:22
MaxdamantusIt's like connecting different ethernet cards. It doesn't matter that one card is gigabit and the other is fast ethernet, since they're designed to be backwards/forwards-compatible; the gigabit card can still use the same transfer mode as the fast ethernet card.13:25
Maxdamantuslikewise, a new SD card can still transfer SDIO packets with an old SD host and a new SD host can still transfer SDIO packets with an old SD card.13:27
brolin_empeyThey are backward compatible but not always forward compatible because some old devices, such as some digital still cameras, some embedded device my colleague has, and I think the Medallion Classic (SA2410) ARM Linux platform of my company, can only use SDSC, not SDHC and later, because these devices use old software that does not have the change required to use SDHC.  Maybe if the old software was carefully written to avoid assumptions that became invalid13:27
brolin_empeybeginning with SDHC then no change to the software is required but I do not know the specifics in this case.13:27
MaxdamantusHas your colleague tried reformatting the card to FAT32? An SDHC card will surely come with an exFAT filesystem which will obviously not work in an old camera.13:28
MaxdamantusIf there is a software limitation, it will surely either be that, or simply the size of the card.13:29
MaxdamantusThere are arguably practical but also possibly business reasons to assume that a card will not be bigger than a certain size.13:30
brolin_empeyThe device my colleague has is some embedded development tool, not a camera.  SDHC cards do not always come with exFAT.  Maybe you meant SDXC in this case.13:30
MaxdamantusMaybe.13:31
MaxdamantusAgain, if there's some incompatibility, it will be because of the size of the card or the filesystem.13:32
Maxdamantus(the filesystem can be rewritten, but you obviously can't change the size of a card)13:32
brolin_empeyThe TSCM-283 embedded computer platform of my company works with SDHC but not SDSC because the person who did the software for this platform never took the time to add support for SDSC because the cost of a >=4-GB SD card is low.13:32
MaxdamantusRight, so it just doesn't support cards bigger than 4GB.13:33
MaxdamantusIt doesn't have to do with the SDHC/SDXC/SDSC label.13:33
MaxdamantusIt might be worth trying to just partition the card to only have a 4GB partition.13:34
brolin_empeyNo, it means the computer only works with 4-GB or larger SD cards because those are SDHC cards.  The computer does not work with 2-GB and smaller SD cards because those are SDSC cards.13:35
MaxdamantusApparently the "SDHC" standard includes cards as small as 2GB.13:36
brolin_empeyIt does not matter in practice because if you need to use an SDSC card then you can just make a raw clone of the SDSC card onto an SDHC card and the resulting SDHC card will work even if only the beginning of the card is used.13:36
MaxdamantusOkay, that's equivalent to just creating a smaller partition, as I said it might be worth trying.13:37
MaxdamantusThis just proves the point that the compatibility issue is not to do with the SDSC/SDHC/SDXC standards but just to do with what sizes the software has been written to support.13:38
MaxdamantusLinux will obviously have some inherent size limit for block devices, but it's probably something like `2^63 - 1` bytes, so noone cares about that limit.13:38
MaxdamantusThe SDSC/SDXC/SDHC labels might be useful for typical consumers to check official compatibility, but the actual software will only ultimately care about the size of the card.13:39
drathiras i know sdhc and sdxc and newer version are not upward compatibile also need a controller support...13:40
MaxdamantusI'm pretty sure that's not true.13:41
drathirin meaning sdxc reader should fine support all older versions, but sd reader in rare cases could support sdhd, but no support for sdxc...13:41
drathirsdhd/sdhc*13:41
Maxdamantuseg, I have a Sansa Clip Zip, which does not officially support SDXC, but the only limitation there is just in the software that normally runs on it. If you run Rockbox (as I do), that software is written such that it doesn't have an arbitrary 4 GiB limit, so I can use a 64 GB card on it.13:42
drathirin short host support determine which card able to read... if host support sd most likely will have problems supprot sdhc...13:43
MaxdamantusGiven that SD controllers just pass SDIO packets between the OS and the card, that's a bit like saying that an ethernet NIC might not support SCTP.13:45
drathirMaxdamantus: and Your theory have issue in my opinion, bc every systems allow Yu to create fat32 partition there is nothing against that, and even oldest devices should supprt sdxc just need format it internaly before use, but them dont...13:45
MaxdamantusSure, in theory, someone could make a NIC that handles TCP/UDP packets specially, but that would be stupid.13:45
drathirMaxdamantus: and ofc not even take under consideaton there card speeds just ommit that completly just clean at all usage of card under the device...13:48
Maxdamantusdrathir: according to your theory, the N900 doesn't support cards bigger than 32 GB, since >32 GB means SDXC, which requires exFAT.13:49
Maxdamantusdrathir: any 64 GB SD card afaik will come with exFAT, therefore it is not possible to use a 64 GB card on an N900?13:50
Maxdamantusatm, I have a 128 GB SD card in my N900. I would never pay any attention to possible compatibility issues with cards, because I'm very confident that there are no compatibility issues with cards on N900. You just need to be able to reformat the card.13:50
drathirMaxdamantus: if n900 have controler available to support sdxc it shuld works...13:51
drathirMaxdamantus: if dont it will not...13:51
Maxdamantusdrathir: every controller supports SDXC cards.13:51
Maxdamantusdrathir: it's only higher-level software that might not support it.13:51
MaxdamantusThe N900 obviously wasn't designed to support SDXC, since it has no exFAT support.13:52
Maxdamantusbut as I said above, the controller can talk to any SD card, so as long as you reformat it with FAT32 or ext3 or something, it will work.13:52
drathirMaxdamantus: if device reader suport sdxc will support all older devices, if device reader support sd only will not support sdxc in rare cases could less or more stable support sdhc...13:54
drathirMaxdamantus: its not filesystem the issue, bc theoreticaly every card You able format in fat32 which could mean no matter of card type it would works in any device reader (ofc include there fat32 system limitations itself)...13:56
Maxdamantusdrathir: you're not meant to have to do that according to SDXC. SDXC mandates exFAT support.13:56
Maxdamantusdrathir: the filesystem *is* the issue. The issue is either the filesystem or the card size. The filesystem can be overwritten.13:57
Maxdamantusand Linux 2.6.28 practically doesn't care about the card size.13:57
Maxdamantusunless maybe once we have petabyte cards or something.13:57
drathirMaxdamantus: yes but only bc logical fat32 limitations wich apply to sizes of such sdxc cards... if Yu fine with sacrifice max available size them should works in any host devices as well...13:58
MaxdamantusYes, that's what I've been saying.13:59
MaxdamantusBut I've also been saying that in general if you have sensible software, it will work with practically any size card.13:59
Maxdamantusso if you're just limited to what Linux supports (which is the case on N900), then there practically is no limit; all SD cards that have been made so far are compatible.14:00
Maxdamantusand unless they break the current pattern of block-level (but not filesystem-level) compatibility, it will work with all cards in the future.14:01
drathiri tell clearly about host device readers support where if the host device reader not matter it should support all the cards on every devices if them get formatted in fat32 no matter if sd/sdhc/sdxc type...14:01
drathirand there apply fat32 restrictions ofc... but card still should work on every host reader if formated in fat32...14:02
MaxdamantusRight, I can't remember what the FAT32 limit is, but that is certainly reachable. Once cards are too big to support FAT32, you can just use another filesystem instead.14:03
MaxdamantusI just use ext4 on the SD card in my N900.14:03
MaxdamantusWe're not going to reach the ext4 limit anytime soon.14:03
drathirand ofc could be wrong, but really not saw sd reader which support sdxc by myself...14:04
Maxdamantus(the size limit of FAT32 is 2 TiB)14:04
drathirMaxdamantus: i would personally guessing n900 have at least reader internally support of sdhc...14:05
Maxdamantus(the size limit of ext4 is 1 EiB)14:05
Maxdamantusdrathir: SDHC is just the standard it supports, because SDHC only involves FAT32.14:06
Maxdamantusdrathir: but I can definitely confirm that SDXC cards work on N900.14:06
Maxdamantusnote that any card that is 64 GB or bigger is either SDXC or SDUC, not SDHC.14:07
Maxdamantus(again, I'm currently using a 128 GB card, which falls into the category of "SDXC")14:09
KotCzarnymight be that sdxc is more of a marketing brand than standard itself?14:09
KotCzarnysimilar to centrino that requires few points fullfilled14:09
MaxdamantusI don't think it's so much to do with marketing, but just a compatibility determining system for non-technical people.14:10
KotCzarnywhich means marketing14:10
MaxdamantusI feel like it probably just confuses technical people.14:11
KotCzarnytechnical folks talk other language14:11
MaxdamantusFor technical people, the device should basically just say "supports SD cards up to size X using filesystems Y, Z"14:11
drathirMaxdamantus: where could apply same rule where sd card readers in some cases able support sdhc in fat32 filesystem ofc... and if n900 card reader allow support of sdhc cards in vary ratio could be possible read sdxc fat32 formated cards... but really would doubt if n900 have only sd card reader capable it will read sdxc, bc that any old device phone/cameras/ etc have as well support of sdxc if have just a sd reader onboard...14:12
drathirMaxdamantus: yea im aware we all time stick within fat32 limitations which devices have internal support only...14:14
sicelobtw, i love this guy for doing this :p16:08
sicelopkg-config libhildondesktop-1 --variable=hildonhomedesktopentrydir16:08
sicelo/usr/share/applications/hildon-home16:08
sicelouser@devuan-droid4:~$ pkg-config libhildondesktop-1 --variable=hildondesktoplibdir16:08
siceloah, wrong paste16:08
sicelohttp://simonweckert.com/googlemapshacks.html  <-- this guy16:08
buZzsicelo: nice #maemo-leste advertizing there :D16:29
buZzhehe16:29
bencoh:]16:30
KotCzarnydarn, that pinephone is heavy16:31
KotCzarnylike, offensive-weapon-heavy16:32
buZznice16:32
buZz20Ah battery?16:32
buZz180 to 200 grams16:33
KotCzarnydont know yet16:33
KotCzarnynice, preloaded with postmarketOS16:33
buZzdroid4 is 185gram16:33
KotCzarnyno os, just a bunch of factory tests16:34
bencohwoah, heavier than n90016:36
bencoh(roughly the same, but)16:36
buZzn900 is 181g16:36
buZzyeah16:37
KotCzarny2800mAh16:37
buZzbencoh: its the weight of all that extra ram :P16:37
buZzKotCzarny: removable?16:37
KotCzarnyyup16:37
buZzthats hawt16:37
buZzits not on droid416:37
KotCzarnyi wonder if they used some popular formfactor16:38
KotCzarnyquectel modem is big too16:38
KotCzarnylike 1/3 of battery16:38
bencohit is on droid4 as well, just a bit of a pain16:39
KotCzarnyumkay, device turns on and works, gotta have fun with it once i finish my other projects16:43
sicelocongrats KotCzarny :)16:51
KotCzarny:)16:52

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!