libera/#neo900/ Wednesday, 2018-06-13

houkimeboard sizes slight mismatch. UPPER y size is 16 mm and LOWER is 15.7503:14
houkimethis will affect connector translation accuracy03:15
houkimethe same with x size - LOWER is 0.2 mm smaller.03:43
houkimeIt also seems that LOWER was outlined with the greater accuracy so maybe it holds priority here.03:43
houkimeoh maybe it is actually a bit longer. it has one place when it has a strangely inclined edge and then a pike which makes it 0.35 mm longer than UPPER04:00
houkimescans suggest that 106.3, which is the LOWER length, is a correct one04:15
houkimeHowever LOWER shape in that strange region I spoke about is a little bit different so a correction might be needed.04:16
houkimealso if a complex shae of LOWER is meant to be a guide then making UPPER a little tiny bit smaller should have with compatibility.04:17
itsNotMe_Moin, anything there which can be considered as "news" ? What are next steps ? Did someone mentioned a "goal" to reach this year? What is about metacollin ?09:25
houkimeitsNotMe_: well, if people need to keep a hand on a pulse, they can checkout my regularly updated issues repo
houkimethey can also participate in planning stuff via other repo here
houkimethey are already usable though I need to provide Contributing guides, links and stuff later.13:36
houkimefor it to be even easier.13:37
houkimeBonus is tthat you can "Watch" repos to receive notifications on email when sth goes on.13:43
DocScrutinizer05I wonder ehat's wrong with neo900's git server19:19
DocScrutinizer05nice interface?19:19
houkimeissue tracking19:19
houkimeand nice interface19:20
DocScrutinizer05issue tracking is unrelated to git19:20
houkimepartly related. They are usually cross-referenced19:20
houkimecopmmit a fixes issue#2319:21
houkimeissue 23 fixed by commit a19:21
houkimeall hyperlinked and stuff19:21
houkimenice interface and merge requests are also important really19:22
houkimeyou lower entrance effort this way19:22
atkyes but...19:22
houkimelower entrance - more people in19:22
atkdo you really want to lower entrance effort for things like layout?19:22
atkThe reason why my own server just has cgit and mailing lists is precisely because I want to set the bar of contribution high enough so that I don't have to deal with waste-of-time contributions19:23
atkand sure, that may sound ungrateful, but it works19:23
atkIt's sort of like having an interview for a job.19:24
houkimeyou ended up with almost no people this way guys19:24
houkimebesides layouting has nothing to do really with git and commandline skills. You just make things harsh in the wrong spot19:25
houkimebetter have formal interviews if you want19:25
atkon another note, layout is currently locked down anyway, so making the interface more user friendly to the public won't change much there :P19:25
DocScrutinizer05so when it has nothing to do with git and cmdline, why is a nice git interface important?19:25
atkwell, the fpds19:25
atkbut I can look at it19:27
houkimenive git interface is important for anything because this is the way people contribute to your project.19:27
DocScrutinizer05I don't see how our webgit interface could become more 2user friendly"19:27
atkDocScrutinizer05: he means make it work like github19:27
DocScrutinizer05that'S exactly what we won't do19:28
DocScrutinizer05we have gitlab on devuan19:28
DocScrutinizer05how900 implemented it and it served a good deal for issue tracking among those who really were involved with the project19:29
DocScrutinizer05for the public we have
DocScrutinizer05and you don't really want anonymous push there19:30
DocScrutinizer05particularly since Neo900 UG is a commercial entity19:31
houkimeJoerg, do you know how gitlab/hub/gogs works? What anonymous pushes?19:31
houkimeHave you heard about forking and prs?19:31
DocScrutinizer05did you ever review a PR of a kicad schematics?19:32
atkthat's the other issue :P19:32
houkimeWell, we can write a program for this if this is a program19:33
houkime*a problem19:33
atkyou want to write a kicad schematic merging program?19:34
houkimewhy not?19:34
houkimeat least i can write a visualiser of a commit19:34
atkI mean if that's what you want to do. It just sounds like my personal idea of hell.19:34
houkimekicad5 supports scripting19:35
DocScrutinizer05houkime: you're aware we already got eeshow which is as good as it gets regarding that?19:35
houkimeyou can write a script to visually diff a commit on layout19:35
DocScrutinizer05you really seem to have no idea of eeshow19:35
houkimeI use eeshow all the time, joierg19:36
DocScrutinizer05this is *exactly* our revolutionary approach to this19:36
DocScrutinizer05you are welcome to extend it to layout19:36
DocScrutinizer05though I think layout is where this concept really reaches its limits, particularly on multilayer19:37
houkimeThe thing is even while you have eeshow, you don't want to people to easily do sch PRs.19:37
houkimefor some reason19:37
DocScrutinizer05reviewing a layout is difficult enough without showing diffs19:37
DocScrutinizer05because you use kicad519:38
DocScrutinizer05a project like this can't use arbitrary versions of tools19:38
DocScrutinizer05thus we decided to use a particular version of kicad419:38
DocScrutinizer05and it was no earlier than metacollin who came up with using kicad5 features not compatible to kicad4 since for layout he claimed those were needed19:39
DocScrutinizer05he however agreed to not edit schematics with kicad5 to keep compatibility there19:40
DocScrutinizer05the schematics are reviewed and "approved", a simple edit of one little detail like a component name, using kicad5, would introduce a diff set that is almost impossible to review and approve for correctness19:42
houkimethat's why you use a specialised diff viewer19:43
houkimethat needs to be maintained up to date with tools19:43
DocScrutinizer05we could and actually might eventually migrate to an official kicad5 version for project tool gold standard. That would involve a complete schematics review and would need a kicad5 version considered LTS and stable19:44
houkimeand that's why you open issues on kicad repos and probably write some code for them yourself.19:44
DocScrutinizer05we don't do kicad development, we use kicad as a tool19:45
houkimein oss world unsatisfied users participate in development. Even if it is just an issue opening19:46
DocScrutinizer05you don't contribute to gcc development when you do an arbitrary FOSS project using C lamguage either19:46
houkimethat's how we roll19:46
houkimei DO contrbute if gcc freaks me out19:46
houkimethat's the thing here19:46
houkimeright now kicad freaks files out. it is a problem19:47
houkimeand probably nobody will fix it unless it is highlighted19:47
DocScrutinizer05the thing here is you gues what we did while you have no idea what really ahppened19:47
DocScrutinizer05we DID chat a lot with kicad devels, directly19:48
DocScrutinizer05and no, they won't fix each and any nuisance we find in kicad. They did for some19:48
DocScrutinizer05they outright rejected other improvement requests we had19:49
DocScrutinizer05otherwise eeshow wouldn't look like it looks now since we had used kicad to generate PDF renders of schematics19:49
houkimeyou did PRs? Or it is just issues that were rejected?19:50
DocScrutinizer05but the cmdline feature of kicad to do so was introduced by "us" (openmoko) several years ago and then got kicked out again by kicad devels and they were not willing to introduce it again19:50
DocScrutinizer05I'm also not really amused you say it's a mandatory skill to get insulted by me when somebody wants to contribute to the project (though you might actualy be right ;-P)19:52
houkimedo a PR on that. :P19:52
DocScrutinizer05I'm no sw devel, I got no clue about PRs19:53
DocScrutinizer05I think chat on IRC is actually lower entry hurdles and more user friendly than gitlab issues and pull requests19:54
houkimechat on irc is nice. I don't say it needs to be gone19:54
houkimejust when you have lots of issues and want to organize stuff you don't wanna scroll chalogs and do guesswork19:55
DocScrutinizer05nobody said you should or need to19:55
DocScrutinizer05just right now there's no crew to coordinate, nobody to look at issue tickets and take action on them, and not many issues for such tickets either. If there were, we already have means to deal with this19:57
DocScrutinizer05what's REALLY URGENTLY needed is a wiki19:58
DocScrutinizer05and maybe a public ML19:58
houkimenotabug provides wiki for a project although it's not really good like all git wikis.20:00
DocScrutinizer05there's no such thing like git wiki20:01
houkimeOh, i just meant wikis integrated with repos. I remember there were some free wiki services out there.20:02
DocScrutinizer05there's a server called that can host whatever wiki you like20:02
houkimeWho will maintain it?20:03
DocScrutinizer05no me20:03
atkI can set up a ML quickly20:04
atkmlmmj is great for that20:04
DocScrutinizer05go ahead20:04
atkand a ML archive20:04
atkmaybe not right this moment though, I'll try to remember for tomorrow or this weekend20:04
houkimesometimes it's ok to outsource maintainance you know. I could have a self-hosted gogs since it is opensource but chose to use notabug just to save a hurdle.20:05
atkAnd for the wiki, there are ways and means too20:05
atkanyway, there's not much maintenance on the server side, only on the content side20:05
atkI am lazy so I have perfected the art of setting things up which mostly maintain themselves :P20:06
DocScrutinizer05~#devuan pkgs20:07
infobotit has been said that #devuan packagelist is on our gitlab's group
DocScrutinizer05it's not really like there is just a nice gitlab needed to make people come and help. Rather it's like people come and ask how to contribute and then you can point them to whatever gitlab or other resources as needed20:18
DocScrutinizer05or rather, usually nobody comes and asks. houkime is the last great exception to that rule :-)20:19
houkimeIt is actually both. Making hardships for people on the flat spot doesn't really help anyway.21:59
houkimethis project is already hard without it21:59
houkimeEven transparency for potenntial clients is a good enough reason to have nice issue tracking and stuff.22:02
AirwaveDamn, I seem to have misplaced my N900 stylus22:04
AirwaveAny place to get a replacement for a somewhat reasonable price? Only thing I found on eBay was a full chassis replacement.22:05
atker... last I remember you could get them easily22:10
atknot sure where you live but:
atkAirwave: ^22:14
Airwaveatk: Ah "touch pen," not "stylus."22:16
atkalthough, I once thought I lost the stylus22:16
AirwaveThanks! Although it's actually not much cheaper than the full chassis + stylus.22:16
atkand then I found it22:16
atkI think you can find cheaper22:17
atkbut if you get the full chassis then at least you have spare parts22:17
AirwaveI'm 100% sure it's lying around here somewhere. I haven't brought it out of the house since I used it last.22:18
AirwaveI thought my device was dead, but fortunately it was just the battery22:26
AirwaveThankfully I have three spares22:26
AirwaveAnyone tried postmarketOS on an N900?22:31
atkI tried it22:34
atkit's not ready yet22:34
atkI don't think they had the graphics driver working to have hildon UI working22:34
atkI think they were looking at making hildon UI perform without hwaccel22:34
atkI was looking at building the drivers for pmos but their method of building things was horribly annoying22:35
atkthey use some kind of chroot, I just wanted tooling which I could run via a prefix22:35
atkIt's like.. I need to make 100s of changes to source and want to just run make22:36
atkthey recommended using a recipe and ccache22:36
Airwaveatk: I'm trying Hildon now. I can't get anything to work.22:41
atkthat was my experience22:41
AirwaveI can't even shut it down. Any way to do that without taking out the battery?22:41
atktake out the battery22:41
atkor run it flat22:41
AirwaveHaha I'll take out the battery then. Thanks.22:42
AirwaveHmm let's see, what other UI could I try other than Hildon?22:42
AirwaveMaybe Matchbox?22:43
AirwaveOr just none. A TTY would be fine just to test this out.22:43
atkthe other UI they provide is some wayland based thing22:51
atkbut I agree, just a TTY would be nice to begin with22:51
atkheck, you can implement a phone interface in a TTY22:51
AirwaveI forgot this thing can't do 5 GHz WiFi22:53
AirwaveI don't have 2.4 GHz at home anymore22:53
AirwaveI guess you can't really do much with this phone anymore22:54
AirwaveI hope Neo900 becomes a reality. Apart from the display being maybe a little small and a front camera missing, this phone has a perfect form factor.22:55
xmnI wouldn't say you can't do much with it. You just need to be more specific with what you do. I use my phone every day and have 2.4 and 5ghz at home. So it can be done.22:57
atkAirwave: N900 is my daily driver phone22:57
atkI use it for in car navigation, I use it for the usual phone stuff, I use the calendar, I use the email functionality22:58
atkEven the web browser gets use22:58
AirwaveWhat do you guys run on it? Maemo?22:58
xmnI set up owncloud for it so syncing great22:58
xmnmaemo of course :D22:58
xmnI mean why else stay with it beside the keyboard22:59
AirwaveThe keyboard is what I love about it22:59
xmnThere are pains sometime, but there is usually a way around most problems23:00
AirwaveWhat's the newest TLS version it supports?23:00
xmnAnd if you know programming your in even better shape23:00
atkthe TLS support is becoming a problem, but a guy from #maemo-leste is working on some solution23:01
atkand another guy from #maemo-leste made a good suggestion for a temporary fix23:01
atkmake a mitm proxy for yourself and use a statically compiled proxy server which supports newer TLS23:01
atkjust need a self signed cert in the cert store23:01
atkI might look at that at some point in the future23:02
DocScrutinizer51shut down should work with 10s power button23:02
DocScrutinizer51unless kernel cancels the hw timer23:02
AirwaveAndroid has made my standards pretty low from what I want from a smartphone23:03
atkI went from Oneplus One to N900 :P23:03
atkI was that annoyed with android23:03
DocScrutinizer51I can see why23:04
AirwaveCardDAV contact sync, OSM navigation, and Signal23:04
AirwaveI make sure I have those three, then I try to maximize freedom, and lastly anything extra is just gravy23:04
AirwaveSo with that in mind, my daily driver for the last five years has been a Samsung Galaxy S3 running CyanogenMod and now LineageOS.23:05
atkfor navigation I have modrana with google's routing servers and OSM maps, but I might try to get on-the-phone routing working23:05
xmnI'm still using built maps :)23:08
xmninteresting that you went from one+ to n90023:09
Joerg-Neo900houkime: we have nice issue tracking, I pointed you to it. You were not happy with that either23:16
Joerg-Neo900I'm not too confortable with this constant criticism23:16
houkimeI wasn't first of all because it is not subscribable (at least I haven't found a way to do it which means people are not likely to) + many other small things.23:18
houkimeMy idea was to make an issue board our main pulse monitor. That's why subscription is important.23:19
Joerg-Neo900well, others found out how to register and contribute23:20
houkimeI mean to have nice email notifications about any issue progress as a newsfeed.23:21
houkimea publicity thing23:21
houkimevery comfortable by the way. That's how you track interesting project on github and likes.23:22
Joerg-Neo900I get email notifications and if you need someting else then maybe you need to create your own tracker23:22
Joerg-Neo900we're not using github and for a number of good reasons, some of which happened sooner than I anticipated (last week?)23:23
houkimewell, I'm not using github either. I consider notabug a safe enough community project unlike others.23:24
houkimebesides, gogs can be self-hosted and it is opensource23:28
Joerg-Neo900so what?23:29
Joerg-Neo900we got everything you asked for23:29
Joerg-Neo900just not in the tools you prefer. sorry we won't change tools twice a month, depending on who pushes what23:30
houkimeI'm thinking about people right now. And right now people is what you lack.23:30
Joerg-Neo900what we need is a wiki23:30
houkimeI want everything to be as easy and comfy as possible. That's how you get more people.23:31
Joerg-Neo900I disagree23:32
houkimeWe're not in a situation to make a proud pose and set high barriers.23:32
Joerg-Neo900sorry I won't invest any more of my time into that. We wasted pronanly like one manyear into exactly such considerations and developments23:33
houkimeMaybe you won't. I will however.23:33
Joerg-Neo900you're free to do that23:34
Joerg-Neo900I've not seen a single person who came asking to volunteer and then went off complaining about unconfortable issue tracker23:35
houkimebecause it is an issue tracker that makes people to will to volunteer.23:35
Joerg-Neo900you're actually the first one who complains about that, except the 3 or 4 internal trackers we already used, for administration etc pp23:35
Joerg-Neo900yet to be proven23:36
Joerg-Neo900this is not a FOSS project, it's about hardware23:37
houkimeit doesn't matter. It is about your attitude towards the work you're doing and towards people and customers.23:37
Joerg-Neo900show me the issue/ticket that would make people contribute when published on gitlab but can't be done on our infra we alrady got23:38
Joerg-Neo900aha now it's my attitude that shows in my selection of tools?23:39
houkimeFreaking yes.23:39
Joerg-Neo900sorry I'm out here23:39

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