| galiven | houkime: I follow the channel to try to keep up, but I miss sometimes and it would be nice to have more regular updates. Something like subscribing to a bug tracker that was regularly updated or even the commit message (without files) from the private git. I use nextcloud as a feed reader so subscribing to the atom feed was easy enough except that it's not updating. | 03:43 |
|---|---|---|
| Joerg-Neo900 | the commit messages from "private" git on neo900 are visible in public git | 08:37 |
| houkime | Joerg-Neo900: it shows only master commits and doesn't allow to switch branches. | 13:08 |
| houkime | meanwhile all progress is on another branch (i.e. mine) | 13:11 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | houkime: yes, it's somewhat limited. We didn't bother to over-engineer that part | 13:20 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | in the end it's again a matter of "spend 1 man week for brushing out all bugs from automation, vs simply do it manually a maybe 50 times 5 minutes for each time" | 13:22 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | in rreal life it's usually rather 4 man weeks vs 15 times one minute | 13:23 |
| houkime | well, i can try to represent ALL commits as issue fixes so that they're somewhat visible in my issue tracker. | 13:26 |
| houkime | (however again this problem is just a side effect of gitolite which is much more PITA to configure than it should be and than most other gitservers are) | 13:29 |
| atk | the commit copying is not implemented via gitolite | 13:50 |
| atk | it's implemented via git hooks and magic scripts | 13:50 |
| atk | It's a "cool hack" which is a bit of a PITA to maintain | 13:51 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | and again this bitching about gitolite | 13:53 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | :-S | 13:53 |
| houkime | I mean, there wouldn't probably be even need for a hack otherwise. | 13:54 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | listen houkime, you're not even involved in git administration. Please stop bullying | 13:54 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | if you want something changed, tell us which particular function shall change in which way | 13:55 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | emphasis on "function", not "subsystem/tool used" | 13:55 |
| houkime | well, there's a function "notifications on commits on non-master branch" which a member of a community expressed interest in. You've already answered that using your subsystems it is a PITA to implement and I better do things manually. | 13:57 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | no, for sure I didn't | 13:58 |
| houkime | <Joerg-Neo900> in the end it's again a matter of "spend 1 man week for brushing out all bugs from automation, vs simply do it manually a maybe 50 times 5 minutes for each time" | 13:58 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | the system works as designed | 13:59 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | and as intended | 13:59 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | there is no requirement of "notifications on commits on non-master branch" | 14:00 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | actually we explicitly ruled that out when we set stuff up | 14:01 |
| houkime | So galiven's perfectly logical request is not a requirement for you? | 14:01 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | please quote that request, I seem I can't find it | 14:03 |
| atk | houkime: I don't know of any git server which allows filtering commits based on the extension of the file changed and reproducing the commits without that file change in another repository | 14:04 |
| atk | or any git server which just doesn't serve parts of the repository based on file extension | 14:04 |
| atk | the only way to implement that seems to be via some hack and I don't think changing the git server would make any difference there | 14:05 |
| atk | but if you have some idea for simplifying this, I'll be happy to listen | 14:05 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | ideas for simplifying would need a basis of understanding the requirements and current system first | 14:06 |
| houkime | 01:43 <galiven> houkime: I follow the channel to try to keep up, but I miss sometimes and it would be nice to have more regular updates. Something like subscribing to a bug tracker that was regularly updated or even the commit message (without files) from the private git. I use nextcloud as a feed reader so subscribing to the atom feed was easy enough except that it's not updating. | 14:07 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | the design was to have an internal git repo where layouters can commit to, and all except footprints and layout files get propagated to public repo | 14:08 |
| atk | hmm | 14:08 |
| atk | I for the commit log I guess that would not be hard to do as a quick ATOM fieed | 14:08 |
| atk | feed* | 14:08 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | houkime: you're aware that our git system does *exactly* what galiven asked for? | 14:08 |
| houkime | it doesn't support non-mastrer branches and thereby it fails to act as a newsfeed. | 14:09 |
| houkime | simple as that | 14:09 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | there been no mentioning of any of that in galiven's post | 14:09 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | simple as that | 14:09 |
| atk | wait wait, if all houkime and galiven want is just a commit log for all branches without any file information then this would be much easier than fixing the existing stuff and expanding it to multiple branches | 14:10 |
| atk | I don't mind putting something together with some quick PHP for that | 14:11 |
| houkime | atk: exactly that | 14:11 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | modulo we decided quite mindfully against this | 14:11 |
| atk | Joerg-Neo900: may I know why it was decided against? | 14:12 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | because metacollin as well as me didn't want *all* branches and repos to get published, it's an opt-in not an opt-out concept | 14:12 |
| atk | alright, I can make it use a whitelist of branches, how about that? | 14:13 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | ok with me | 14:13 |
| houkime | ok | 14:13 |
| atk | I'll start looking into it then, I'll test on my own server to implement something and then I'll look at integrating it into the neo900 server infrastructure | 14:13 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | ta! | 14:14 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | atk: keep in mind that cleaning oopsies is obviously quite painful in git. we already once had files leaking and almost didn't manage to clean them out again, had to rebuild the complete repo iirc | 14:17 |
| atk | This won't show any files so there won't be a problem | 14:17 |
| atk | this will just be a commit log with file names | 14:17 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | good | 14:17 |
| atk | As long as someone doesn't put footprint data in the commit message, there won't be a problem | 14:17 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | :-D | 14:17 |
| atk | and actually, pygit2 might be a good option for writing a slightly nicer and less error prone whitelist based repo replication script | 14:18 |
| atk | but I'll look at it once I work out how to get this atom feed working | 14:18 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | a last comment: >>it doesn't support non-mastrer branches<< is incorrect. We deliberately *added* a line (iirc) to the magic script code to exclude branches from getting published | 14:48 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | for sure it been considerd and carefuly taken care about to make sure it acts like intended, also in this branches-regard | 14:49 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | this constant assumption we were simply incompetent to set up stuff the way somebody else thinks was "The Correct Way" is pretty annoying | 14:50 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | I'm for sure no git expert, but this >>however again this problem is just a side effect of gitolite<< and >>there wouldn't probably be even need for a hack otherwise<< are not solicited, not founded and not appreciated | 14:58 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | atk: sorry I missed to really notice (I read but somewhat ignored it) the >>if all houkime and galiven want is just a commit log for all branches without any file information then this would be much easier<< part. Of course this is much easier and I have not much concerns about it in any way | 15:02 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | stoll it would be fine if we have a whitelist for repos to aggregate in such commitlog summary webpage | 15:10 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | still* | 15:10 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | there might be (and maybe already have been) "tmp" repos that ere not at all meant to get published | 15:11 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | not sure about branches | 15:11 |
| galiven | Joerg-Neo900: atk: A log of changes without the files would be nice just to see that things are happening, even if they're happening in houkime's branch instead of master. I know the files are sensitive and we don't want to release them too early, but http://neo900.org/git/ee/ has its last commit at 9 months ago, so it doesn't seem like anything is going on. | 20:07 |
| galiven | Maybe even in the uBlog which I subscribe to and is right on the main neo900.org page. | 20:08 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | alas microblog is the most fubar thing in whole site | 20:09 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | but maybe atk can do a little miracle and revive it again for this purpose | 20:09 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | in 9 out of 10 cases, my posts to microblog didn't make it at all I.E got rejected with obscure errors, or got stuck in the tube and piled ip there not showing on webpage, or in rare cases made it but with wrong author | 20:11 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | so I gave up on it when I asked a 5th time to have it fixed and nothing happened | 20:12 |
| galiven | Ahhh :-( I much prefer having uBlog compared to relying on giant evil Twitter. | 20:12 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | twitter is completely unknown to me | 20:13 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | but I think a large part of uBloh's fubarness was from twitter integration | 20:13 |
| galiven | I know others use it a lot but I avoid it. Surprisingly apparently Nikolaus uses it, there's a link on the top of goldelico.com for @goldelico. | 20:14 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | and the ever changing twitter API | 20:14 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | wow | 20:14 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | anyway atk is looking into it, so you soon will find something you should probably like | 20:15 |
| atk | Yes, I have a thing sort of working, it just needs a bit more work, but some life responsibilities got in the way. | 20:16 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | no hurries :-) | 20:16 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | tbh I'm not sure at all if going twitter and facebook was any smart move for Neo900 to start with. In the end both are rather what we want to fight than what we want to support | 20:50 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | but well... when I see companies having "privacy and decentralization" as core of their corporate identity going all google-doc for their internal stuff | 20:52 |
| houkime | seems like federated social networking is needed just like people want to federate git servers here: https://github.com/git-federation/gitpub/issues | 20:57 |
| houkime | via reaching consensus on the protocols etc. | 20:57 |
| houkime | so that you can publish on minor or even self-hosted network and still be heard everywhere else. | 20:58 |
| galiven | I watch #neo900 and #openphoenux on diaspora*. Don't bother with facebook anymore and never got on the Twitter bandwagon in the first place. | 21:05 |
| jonsger | galiven: you are on diaspora? | 21:10 |
| galiven | Joined a while ago because facebook is terrible, but I just follow a couple tags to see if anything interesting has happened lately. | 21:12 |
| galiven | The #linux tag is a bit too noisy though, so I don't see much that's interesting. | 21:13 |
| houkime | found probably the only reasonable position for nfc subsystem. See how long till i find some terrible thing that disallows it. | 21:13 |
| houkime | checked out diaspora wikipage. Looks like a nice thing. | 21:18 |
| houkime | Personally I'm more looking forward to decentralised videohostings to put down youtube. That would be really nice although probably hardware reqs for video server are way too high. | 21:21 |
| houkime | man, google really makes tons of money with its specialised video datacenters and does not play nice. | 21:23 |
| houkime | maybe some cheap oshw server hardware is what is needed here. | 21:24 |
| atk | hmm | 21:35 |
| atk | I don't really actually think google makes any money on youtube | 21:35 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | they must do, otherwise how would they pay to professional youtube contributors? | 21:51 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | I think their ads on YT are not for free | 21:52 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | and they are way more efficient than banner ads, with that nasty "you can skip this video on 5s..." | 21:53 |
| atk | Google is a big company which makes lots of money elsewhere. As of 2015 youtube was still only breaking even in terms of revenue. Not sure about right now. | 22:16 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | ooh | 22:17 |
| atk | Although maybe their aggressive tactics recently have improved the situation. | 22:17 |
| atk | Back in 2015 things like youtube red were in their infancy and the adpocalypse hadn't happened yet. | 22:18 |
| atk | But the website's popularity as a place for music videos and mainstream media channels had been growing since then | 22:18 |
| atk | and those don't get demonitised and bring lots of ad views | 22:19 |
| houkime | if one needs to go aggressive only to make some profit even if it has a size economy bonus than probably slashing down essential costs like hardware, buildings, electricity and bandwith is the only way to make a real competition. | 22:24 |
| houkime | *then | 22:25 |
| atk | Yeah, competing with youtube would be difficult merely due to how expensive it would be and how difficult it would be to monetize while competing with it | 22:26 |
| houkime | oshw community-done-all-rnd servers, 3d-printed buildings, self-powered via solar or sth, on the Musk's free Starlink ISP | 22:27 |
| atk | Hmm, I wouldn't trust musk when he says something will be free | 22:28 |
| atk | He has a talent for underestimating the running cost of his ambitious ideas | 22:28 |
| atk | even if it starts of free, that's not a guarantee | 22:29 |
| houkime | satellites have no maintainance as of now. | 22:31 |
| atk | well.. you still have to launch them and then replace them | 22:32 |
| houkime | I think the solution to replacement problem would be to launch them high enough and make dynamic (non-geostationary) links possible. | 22:35 |
| houkime | so that they don't need to correct orbit and refuel. | 22:35 |
| houkime | spacecrafts themselves as history shows are quite reliable. | 22:36 |
| houkime | basically - more reliable than any ground infra. | 22:36 |
| houkime | In some time crowdfunded satellites should also become possible. | 22:39 |
| houkime | so that all network lives off donations | 22:39 |
| houkime | *on | 22:39 |
| houkime | technically you can use not a dish but a phased array to communicate. And all adjustments will be done software-level without moving parts. | 22:46 |
| houkime | so even if orbit deterioration occurs or satellite is not in a fixed point in the sky soft will handle it all. | 22:48 |
| houkime | this way you can make satellites fly much higher and not be affected by earth weight distribution and atmosphere so much. | 22:50 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | I wouldn't want a internet that has a 100,000km single way latency, 200,000 RTT | 22:50 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | also my landlord would hate me placing an antenna on the roof or just out my window | 22:51 |
| houkime | yep, latency is the sad part. We will hit this anyway when internet will go cross solar system tho( | 22:52 |
| houkime | for free sth it's ok tho. | 22:52 |
| houkime | guess video streaming can also live with it. | 22:53 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | you know, there already *are* a trainload of sats out there, for Thuraya and Iridium "cellular" phones. They offer "internet" | 22:53 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | you don't want to use that. Not really | 22:53 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | Iridium has how many? 98? And still they can't offer anything faintly on par with HSCSD or EDGE | 22:58 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | heck, a UMTS basestation can't sustain the boldly advertised bandwidth as soon as more than a 100 users are doing data in that cell | 22:59 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | neither does LTE | 22:59 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | how would a satellite covering a whole town or country? | 23:00 |
| houkime | ok. Your point is here not really about latency but more on how many satellites you need to launch to cover bandwith needed. | 23:03 |
| houkime | valid concern | 23:03 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | actually both. For acceptable latency you need LEO SATs | 23:04 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | maybe 800km high, like Iridium | 23:04 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | iirc | 23:04 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | the lower the orbit, the more sats you need, just to have comprehensive coverage | 23:05 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | Thuraja uses GEO orbit and only a few sats, size of a grayhound bus | 23:05 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | beamforming | 23:06 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | they *could* do a maybe 100000 or a million users, maybe even with acceptable data rate, with better hardway, way better than you could cram into this volume today. but... latency | 23:07 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | hardware* | 23:07 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | sorry, spelling error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuraya | 23:09 |
| houkime | So... if we want to have a free internet with ok latency it might be either atmosat or a network of home wifirouters chatting with each other and forming a net in an anarchical manner. | 23:12 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | and honestly, when I place a sat dish on my roof for internet, why not point it to a peer (mesh internet) or a land borne base station instead of a satellite? | 23:13 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | yes, exactly | 23:13 |
| houkime | i think wifi is more like a way to go since you don't need extra antennas for it. | 23:13 |
| houkime | basically it right now can be a pure software solution | 23:14 |
| houkime | at least in some places. | 23:14 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenet you still might need dishes | 23:14 |
| houkime | I2P also seems like a way to go. However this systems don't cover DIRECT (without ISP) connection between peers. | 23:18 |
| houkime | *these | 23:18 |
| houkime | so basically what one needs is a soft for routers and smartphones to try establish direct connections between each other. | 23:20 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | actually sorry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freifunk | 23:21 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | yes, many peer links are simple AP2AP, but some gaps need dishes to bridge them | 23:22 |
| houkime | do they use smartphones also? | 23:25 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | err no, only as WLAN clients | 23:26 |
| houkime | Wifi sharing and bluetooth might be ok means and the number of smartphones is HUGE. | 23:26 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | P2P protocols of all flavors are generally a very poor idea on battery powered embedded devices like smartphones | 23:27 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | might fly in a special situation like a demo, for a few hours. To defeat authorities trying to shut down connectivity of all participants of such a meeting | 23:28 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | generally it will suck your battery dead in no time, without you even using the device at all | 23:29 |
| houkime | recently smartphones are sort of ok with constant connection though. | 23:29 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | no, they are not | 23:29 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | WLAN is a 100mW TX and greedy receivers, and nothing will change that# | 23:30 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | the more data you transfer, the faster your battery is dead | 23:30 |
| houkime | though about nfc for a second as about a way to transfer data between phone and router without phone dying out | 23:39 |
| houkime | but range probably too small | 23:39 |
| houkime | and for a phone to be a relay it needs to be in a range of 2 routers simultaneusly | 23:40 |
| houkime | but this will lead to 2 routers being in wifirange from each other so phone is not needed | 23:40 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | https://monitoring.freifunk-franken.de/map?mapcenter=49.44514,11.07937,13 | 23:41 |
| houkime | do green circles display coverage area? | 23:44 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | green circles are active routers aka APs | 23:45 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | range is not shown | 23:45 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | aka coverage | 23:45 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | since... who could tell | 23:45 |
| houkime | looks like the idea is quite popular. | 23:50 |
| houkime | strange | 23:50 |
| houkime | I asked my sister who uses skyoe all the time on her phone via our wifi | 23:51 |
| houkime | *skype | 23:51 |
| houkime | she says for 46 minute of video conversation it is only 6 percent of battery or so. | 23:51 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | well, when your sister has a phone that doesn't use 10% of battery even with screen on... | 23:58 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | for one hour | 23:58 |
| Joerg-Neo900 | such phones may exist. It's not usual though. Usual is phone getting hot from WLAN constant usage, and where's heat there's much of power getting consumed | 23:59 |
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