libera/#neo900/ Wednesday, 2018-08-15

houkimefound makerdon.org00:34
houkimeook. It will be a bit hard to build some community without google but this is what i want to pursue01:19
houkimeunfortunately peertube doesn't support streams yet because obviously this is a lot of pressure on any instance01:21
houkimehowever it might be possible to have at least unrecorded streams this way01:22
houkimei currently have some minor problems with pelican not finding css. then i will try to make stuff more interconnected01:37
houkimeAt least there's a missing link to the www repo in resources. Also i want to have links to issue tracker and planning and whatever.01:39
houkimeand in general make site easier for potential contributors seeking to help out with neo90001:40
houkimechomwitt: if you want something to be made, please consider opening issues and/or make prs to the planning repo.01:42
houkimeso that there's something condensed to discuss. Also PR mechanics allows you to actually make changes you want and present them01:45
houkimeI probably perceived the general idea of what you want but now it is time to discuss actual implementations and goals.01:47
houkimeI will also open issues for stuff to keep everything organised01:49
houkimeorganization is what i lacked recently01:50
houkime*issues myself01:54
chomwitti dont understand. are u willing to put efford when u dont even know if it can be built? there could be pieces that cant be found in the market. u still think it just a 'manpower' issue?02:21
houkimewhat can't be built?02:22
houkimeoh, you're about cases?02:23
chomwitti mean the motherboard02:25
houkimemotherboard we are producing and designing02:25
chomwittbut , also at least the screen02:26
chomwittwhat do u mean 'we are producing' ?02:26
houkimesorry, english and tenses. Currently designing. Will produce.02:27
houkimeI'm actually worried a bit now joerg-Neo900 not responding anything about n900 count02:29
houkimejoerg-neo900: how many N900's are currently in stash?02:31
chomwitti'm asking the project still 'doable' in the hardware-sourcing the components sense yet?02:31
Joerg-Neo900houkime: slightly over 200. Enough for the ciustomers who preordered a complete device, not enough for the number of units we need to produce and sell ro reach break-even exonomically02:33
chomwittbut those are the cases with screens and keyboards. what about the components to build 200 motherboards?02:34
houkimethey are full n900s02:35
Joerg-Neo900we have ~200 preorders for complete devices (and sufficent N900 for that), and we have ~150 preorders for NeoN bareboard/kit. We need a total of 600+ unit sales/preorders (Neo900 / NeoN) to make production feasible02:35
Joerg-Neo900alas it gets increasingly more difficult to source more N900 even if we can generate more preorders02:37
houkimechomwitt: motherboards themselves are modern with modern components from digikey. old are only cameras and battery gauges02:37
chomwitthoukime: i got that, but the motherboards of the n900s arent's useless?02:38
Joerg-Neo900200 nice little beagleboard-alike SBCs02:38
OksanaTo generate more pre-orders for motherboards (not complete devices), emphasis should be on "you can take your old dusty N900 with not-working-motherboard and breathe new life into it with NeoN bareboard/kit"02:39
Joerg-Neo900>>old are only cameras and battery gauges<< HM? how are battery gauges old""?02:39
Joerg-Neo900Oksana: yep02:40
OksanaAs in, new NeoN bareboard still needs "old" camera module from Nokia N900?02:40
OksanaUnless compatible camera modules are available en masse on digikey or something02:40
chomwittJoerg-Neo900: the '200 beagleboard-alike SBS' have been bought? and do they have on them the cpu , mem etc i read in the neo900 specs?02:41
Joerg-Neo900Oksana: yes, we plan to osurce N97(?) camera modules02:41
Joerg-Neo900chomwitt: hmm? please rephrase02:42
OksanaWhat are the dimensions of NeoN bareboard/kit? /Just wondering if it could be compatible with some other phone case, besides Nokia N900 - highly unlikely though, given the hardware keyboard/02:42
Joerg-Neo900never mind02:42
Joerg-Neo900Oksana: ^^^02:43
Joerg-Neo900chomwitt: I susp4ect some misconception regarding Neo900, N900, old and new PCBs02:44
houkimejoerg-neo900: there are two gauges and one is old for compatibility reasons. it is not sourced though probably just antique. BQ27200DRK02:45
houkimeis officially marked as not for new designs02:45
houkimejoerg-neo900:Nothing really. You were just asking about how gauges are old. One of them is.02:46
houkimeOksana: sec, looking up dimensions02:49
OksanaHow are there two battery gauges?.. And looking currently at , fascinating02:50
houkimex - 105.75 y 56.4 and some z you can look up in stacking02:50
chomwittarent beableboard used only for a v2 prototype? i thougth that in the finally neo900 a new motherboard would have to be designed02:51
Joerg-Neo900define: 'old'02:51
Joerg-Neo900chomwitt: you asked >><chomwitt> houkime: i got that, but the motherboards of the n900s arent's useless?<<, I gathered you're talking about the original N900 PCB that came with the 200 N900 we sourced. They are "useless" except when you use them as beagleboard-alike SingleBoardComputers02:54
Joerg-Neo900we use a BB-xM as "brainboard" for proto_v2, we sourced 10 of them02:55
Joerg-Neo900sorry, afk, Be back tomorrow02:56
chomwittJoerg-Neo900: i was wondering more generally if the components of the final neo900 can be found02:57
chomwittlets say in 2 years from now02:57
houkimejoerg-neo900: bye. thx for info02:57
houkimechomwitt: there is nothing really fast-expiring inside the board itself board maybe besides this one gauge.02:59
houkimeat least nothing that can't be corrected with relative ease02:59
chomwitthoukime: i'm not a hardware expert by far ,thats why i ask03:00
chomwittso lets say in 2 years from now if v2 goes ok , it could be found 300 omap TI DM373003:00
* Oksana thinks that manufacturing another wave of identical Neo900 devices will probably be impossible in 10 years? Because OMAP3 CPU sounds old03:00
chomwittOksana: what do y mean another? we'r talking about the first wave i think :-)03:01
chomwittsorry, 350 TI DM3730  (200 + 150 bareboards)03:02
houkimeI wouldn't make neo900s in 10 years from now even if they happen to be super popular. Conversion phones in general produce too many troubles in development i think03:02
houkimelike... far too many03:03
chomwittconversion phones?03:03
OksanaFirst wave will be alright, afaik. And 1000 would be needed, minimum.03:03
OksanaConversion from Nokia N900 to NeoN90003:03
houkimelike right now compatibility with old soft and case makes many things much more complicated than they should be03:04
chomwittwell the project is without sufficient manpower to even pull v2 , its 650 unit behind economical feasability if i can recap ..03:05
houkimelike, i wouldn't spend a month trying to solve bob problems if i could just modify case.03:05
houkimeand yes there are two gauges one of which is old and 5 times bigger by area then another03:06
houkimefor compatibility03:06
chomwittsorry , 250 units behind economic viabity03:07
Oksanachomwitt : I pre-ordered 7 complete devices. And that's while being a student - not a billionaire. Granted, I am an electronics magpie...03:08
Oksanahoukime : If you could modify the case, you would spend a month modifying the case, and you would have to speak with Greece (or somebody) like Pyra does, looking at prototypes of the case.03:10
OksanaInteresting, but implies lots of arguments on forums about "What should the case be like?"03:11
chomwittOksana: i pre-ordered one03:11
OksanaNice :-) Thank you :-) I wish I could support somehow else, besides pre-orders, but no idea how03:13
houkimeSupport that is really needed now is not about money. Like, joerg actually has the money to hire layouter and whatnot03:14
houkimethe problem is layouters bail out03:15
houkimeand kicad layouters esp working on linux are rare03:15
* Oksana has never seen kicad or anything before - and that's besides the layouting probably requiring lots of time03:16
* Oksana could try to install kicad on my Linux laptop - which I switch on about once a week, using N900 most of the time instead of laptop - since I don't think KiCad runs well (if at all) on N90003:16
* Oksana corrects myself - 6 device pre-orders and one voucher, actually03:18
chomwittOksana: is neo900 based on GTA04 ?03:18
houkimeOksana: you can totally try03:18
houkimeOksana: there will be no har anyway03:19
houkime*no harm03:19
Joerg-Neo900houkime: please! what makes you think >>joerg actually has the money to hire layouter<< ?03:19
houkimeJoerg-neo900: because you have already tried to contract them? Did interviews and whatnot?03:20
houkimethat's how metacollin ended up involved, no?03:21
Oksanachomwitt : Yes, to a large extent.03:21
chomwittstrangely goldendelicious has none stock at the moment03:22
chomwittis gta04 abandoned?03:22
OksanaThey tried to make a newer version, see #gta04 But it didn't work out, for now, I think03:23
houkimechomwitt: they are still working on it probably.
chomwittOksana: the issues gta04 had are related to neo900 ?03:30
chomwitti mean neo900 will be affected by the issues gta04 had on their latest version?03:31
houkimehard and interesting question. Think it needs investigation03:31
chomwittdigikey says it has 921 available DM3730 at 800MHz .. i was curious if the processor is still available.03:37
chomwitti think i found the issue with GTA04A5 , there was an issue with the soldering of the omap processor03:42
chomwittthey got a yield <33%03:42
chomwitta! it mentions neo900.. :-/03:43
houkimeyep that's pretty bad03:44
houkime"unsolderable chips"03:45
OksanaRAM/NAND PoP03:46
OksanaWhich RAM/NAND PoP chip did they have?03:46
OksanaGoing by old conversations, "soldering is simply a matter of doing more tests so no issue afaik", "for Neo900 there's no such thing like a 'PoP/RAM soldering issue' yet"04:00
houkimememory seems to be MT29C8G96MAZBADJV-504:04
houkimebased on
Oksana>> the 'problem' definitely can get soved by tuning the parameters of soldering, the methods etc, it just needs the resources  <<04:05
chomwittOksana: Schaller seem rather pesimmistic though after reading the whole email..04:07
OksanaSpeaking of pessimistic...
chomwitt'So the best for Neo900 would be to change the CPU/RAM chip'04:07
houkimeit is actually a bit strange that problem is so severe given that omap-3 has some successful products with it inside04:09
houkimelike, is it ok for mass producers to have 33 percent yield and be profitable?04:10
houkimeprobably one needsto talk with omap guys themselves?04:11
chomwittwell, i dont have the knowledge to say sth in the technicals ,but it seems that finding another company to do the soldering  maybe could help?04:12
houkimeIt might help, and might not help. Nobody knows at this point aside of those who actually had success.04:13
houkimethat's why i think one needs to investigate the factories that actually successfully soldered this stuff04:14
houkimeand maybe use them04:14
houkimebecause there are such factories obviously04:15
chomwittso that's an open issue of investigation. find successfull products with high yield with OMAP304:15
Oksanahoukime : The only other device with OMAP3 and 1GB RAM is Nokia N9, apparently?04:15
houkimeOksana: There was a short under the cpu which means that cpu itself is already a problem. Nokia wasn't the only ones using omap3 i believe04:17
houkimesoldering problems are also not dependent on silicon itself - they are about a package04:19
OksanaIt's CPU which gets warped because of temperatures, apparently
OksanaBut NAND/RAM influences overall configuration, possibly?04:20
OksanaIn short, don't worry about it, and make the layout. If somebody has suitable CPU and NAND/RAM chips at hand, and tools to try different methods of soldering, it would be nice.04:22
Oksana>> an OMAP ZIF socket to test the soldered stack << would be nice as well04:22
chomwittarent any simulation software available for such complex soldering?04:29
houkimei believe one could try to extract info from TI itself and save some test runs04:30
Oksanachomwitt : Ideally, TI would outright specify what is necessary for no-trouble soldering of their chip. They do mention possibility of "pre-assembling the PoP stack" which may be helpful04:33
houkimeideally if it doesn't solder with the method they themselves recommended one can ask for refunds04:35
chomwittso someone out there knows... :-004:35
chomwittthats little comforting... :-)04:36
chomwittbut houkime  dont u think that a nice wiki with an updated FAQ could propably made some parts of this conversation or the conversations (that i just learned) more accessible to newcomers and propably to someone how 'knows...'04:38
houkimeto be sure though i would recommend using a factory with prior experience with omap304:39
houkimechomwitt: yes. Also I can just open an issue for that04:40
chomwittif someone knows the 'social' part  of the project would help.04:40
chomwittyou could even send letters to factories to respond to pick the job04:40
houkimechomwitt: for this sort of stuff i think issues is the most right format because it is... an issue.04:42
houkimeOne still needs to be a wiki admin and setupper nevrtheless04:42
houkimewiki is a nice thing04:43
Oksanahoukime : This issue was already solved once, for GTA04 (which also used OMAP3, apparently). The same factory couldn't replicate success for GTA04A5, though?04:43
chomwittso the issue was to the new processor or memory GTAO4A5 used?04:44
houkimeOksana: yep, that's quite strange.04:44
chomwitthoukime: issue (hardware,soldering,omap3,etc..)04:45
chomwitthoukime: sure04:45
houkimeThere might be a thing that while there is a reflow setting for omap3 and is a reflow setting for memory they are not necessarily combined ok.04:46
Oksanachomwitt : Fab said it's problem of different NAND/PoP chip, but then, it could be that their equipment/staff changed04:46
chomwittOksana: in that case test should be done it two factories04:49
chomwitttwo factories with different machines04:50
chomwittthat could help pinpoint the issue i think04:50
chomwittso GTA04A5 choose the one.. neo900 should choose another if trying the same chip combo04:51
chomwittwell i'm out of my stuff here. sorry just carried away.04:52
chomwitthave to sleep.04:52
chomwittthanks for answering my questions.04:52
houkimewriting an issue04:53
houkimesth like this
houkimei also need to sleep05:14
houkimehm... mastodon sort of works out, already have an electronics student coming by to say hi16:43
houkimeIt is sort of nice to have a foss environment with a bunch of foss people.16:44
houkimebe back later16:45

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