libera/#neo900/ Sunday, 2018-10-14

NecrosporusDo any pocket computers exist in 2018 beside GPD stuff, which can run at least two different operating system?10:13
atkany reasonably open device can run an infinite number of operating systems, as long as you're willing to write them :P10:29
atkbut I assume you mean a device which is officially supported by some number of linux distributions, bsds androids, whatevers10:30
Necrosporusatk, let's rephrase it now. Are there any devices which have a keyboard, are reasonably small and can run an operating system other than Android, and still sold officially11:14
NecrosporusPocket computers11:14
atkit depends on how powerful you want it to be11:15
NecrosporusI know there were N900, Jornada, Nokia 9110, but they all are out of busyness and can only be bought as old units11:16
NecrosporusAlso Pandora and Pyra, but Pandora is outdated, and Pyra still not available11:16
NecrosporusAnd there is GPD stuff, Win and Pocket. And also Gemini, which is said to only work on android, GNU/Linux is installable but not useable11:18
Necrosporusatk, is there anything newer than 2015 and not in list?11:18
bencoh(you forgot the motorola droid4 in the list of old devices able to run linux)11:19
bencoh(~2012 iirc)11:20
atkNecrosporus: yes, there's a device, but I think it's not very powerful and I can't remember what it's called and I think the company behind it went bust this year11:22
atknot sure what it ran but I think it might have been linux or a custom OS11:22
NecrosporusSo, HPC are out of busyness basically11:23
Necrosporusatk, what do you think about Psion Netbook Pro?11:24
atkI've only just heard of it11:24
atkseems even more outdated than the N900 :P11:25
atkI just use a N90011:25
NecrosporusThere are a lot of keyboard tablets, but they all are on Intel hardware and come with Windows 10, and their support in Linux is making them useable only with constant power connection11:25
NecrosporusMany of them cannot use USB and power up in same time11:26
KeroGemini PDA11:33
bencohNecrosporus: some people seem to find linux on GPD hardware quite usable, by the way11:42
Necrosporusbencoh, the intel one? sure but it's too expensive for me12:18
Necrosporusbesides, it comes with Windows 10 license which I don't wish to pay for12:19
DocScrutinizer05>><Necrosporus> There are a lot of keyboard tablets, but they all are on Intel hardware and come with Windows 10, and their support in Linux is making them useable only with constant power connection<< That's e global problem of embedded. You need to follow an absolutely strict event-driven hw-IRQ-based paradigm for any phone aloke device, when you want standby. Even Pandora and GTA04 basically fail on this15:03
sicelothis month  was the first time ever that i finally felt some disappointment with my N90015:07
NecrosporusDocScrutinizer05, what do you think about ubuntu touch? It's sort of dead, but devices which can run it are not too hard to come by yet15:08
sicelos/my N900/Fremantle/15:08
siceloubuntu touch was recently updated by community15:09
DocScrutinizer05sicelo: sorry, I totally forgot what I thought when firdst and only time looking into it - which prolly doesn't mean a good thing15:11
DocScrutinizer05Necrosporus: ^^^15:11
NecrosporusYeah, I know15:12
NecrosporusI mean what do you think, how does it compare with neo900?15:12
siceloubuntu touch, you mean? i also  don't really have much interest in it (but it does seem to be alive, to some extent)15:12
NecrosporusIt seems that a smartphone which runs them could be bought much cheaper, but what about freedom15:13
DocScrutinizer05when I looked into it, a collision of touch with fremantrle woulkd have same effect like a solitaire star collidinbg with a whole galaxy.15:14
siceloi am lost now, DocScrutinizer05 :-)15:15
NecrosporusI'm wondering, is Android going to dominate smartphones forever now?15:33
NecrosporusAt first there were so many different kinds of mobile phones, some like tiny laptops, some with rotating and sliding and opening hinges, others just plain bricks with keyboard. But somehow at 2010 or something it all started to change and now all new smartphones are bricks with large screen for about 50 years or so15:34
NecrosporusWhen are we going to see something other than another brick on a mass market?15:34
DocScrutinizer05when decent tiny formfactor AR/VR goggles get to market, See goog0lll gkas16:02
DocScrutinizer05see google glass16:02
DocScrutinizer05r lez me rephrase: when Samsung Bixdy, Google assistant and Alexa meet16:09
sixwheeledbeastWhats disappointing about fremantle?17:33
sicelosixwheeledbeast: SSL/TLS is making it more and more difficult to use Fremantle productively. I've lost access to two important mailboxes recently, and for the first time, a faced with an important decision - do I buy an Android phone now? :-(19:59
siceloadmnistrators of the work server obvioulsly do not want to loosen the security to accommodate N900 - I don't blame them.20:02
atksicelo: I heard something about proxying HTTPS traffic through a daemon you could run on the N900 with a statically compiled SSL/TLS library which would have its own certificate which you would trust20:06
atksomeone told me that it would be possible to write something like that in Go quite easily20:07
atkbut I don't like go so I was eventually going to look into doing it a slightly different way20:07
siceloi'd be happy to try such solutions .. but haven't seen anything concrete yet20:08
atksicelo: well yes, in principle it should work20:18
atksicelo: it's also possible (because I've had a look) to update openssl to a newer version20:19
atkbut I don't know if that will fix the protocol problems20:19
atkbut the principle is this20:20
atkyou would have to find all the essential proprietary packages which rely on OpenSSL and do a binary modification on them to make them look for a different library20:20
atkthey look for and, you want them to look for and libXrypto.so20:21
atkthis binary modification won't break them, you can then symlink/copy the shared objects to test that this works20:21
atkwhat you do then is write a shim which implements all the now binary incompatible functions which the programs made use of20:21
atkand forwards all the other calls to libssl20:22
atknow that that works, you can build a new libssl and libcrypto and rebuild every open source package against them20:22
atkand finally you rebuild your shim against the new libssl20:22
atkand that SHOULD mean that now everything works20:22
siceloi don't know if i'm capable of that :)20:22
siceloand there's also maemo-certman in the equation ..20:23
sicelobut i will have a look20:24
atkhmm, the certificate store is just a certificate store20:24
atkyou might need to push a new set of certs, that's not a hard part20:24
atkthe hard part of the whole thing is getting a sensible build environment for N90020:24
atkI think I'm going to have to resign myself to just installing the ready made one because there's no documentation for how to do that outside of that environment20:25
atkI guess when I get that working I could reverse-engineer it20:25
sicelo'installing the ready made one' ... you mean scratchbox?20:26
atklet me find on the maemo wiki20:27
atkwow, is in pieces20:28
atklots of features stopped working20:28
atkyes, scratchbox20:29
siceloi have an old installation of scratchbox,20:33
atkI might try that again soon20:34
atkbecause I'm getting hit by the SSL problems too20:34
atkand modrana also stopped working20:34
atkmodrana's google maps based routing20:34
atkor maybe I should just see about getting offline routing working20:35
atkor maybe another routing provider20:35
siceloplease let us know how it goes ... maybe on tmo20:37
atkthere's also:
atkit was wizzup in there offering to write that go proxy20:38
atkhe might not remember now but if you explain the problem he should20:38
atkhe might be able to help you get something working20:38
atkthe channel is #maemo-leste20:38
sixwheeledbeastscratchbox was at scratchbox.org21:16
ceenedidn't jonwil build a newer openssl?21:24
ceenei did it too ages ago and it solved a few things, but never got it to be fully integrated on maemo21:25
ceenebut i think jonwil should have it much more advanced than I did21:25
sicelohe built 1.0.221:25
ceeneand it doesn't solve most issues?21:45
siceloi haven't seen much change yet (probably because the majority of applications don't use openssl directly?)21:52
siceloand those that do probably need recompilation?21:53
ceenethey shouldn't21:53
ceeneqt, for example, dlopens libssl, so it searches for latest version21:53
ceeneso almost all qt based apps, should just work with the new library21:54
ceenebut the rest of apps, well, i don't know what gtk does, for example21:54
siceloodd thing is ... after updating to the newer qt4-x11, cutenews stopped updating some https feeds i had. so no idea what's up there. unfortunately i don't recall with version of qt4-network i had before,21:55
ceenei patched qt to remove ssl3.0 support, because it was deprecated and lots of sites were failing because qt wanted to connect using only ssl3.0, whereas the server had this as forbidden21:56
ceeneso in fact, it should be the other way around, unless those few https feeds are misconfigured and trying to use ssl3.0 and now qt refuses to do so...21:57
siceloactually i made a mistake earlier. it is not openssl 1.0.2, but 1.1.0h :)21:58
ceeneuhm, I'm looking at my old repos and I had to patch QT so it could use newer openssl22:00
ceeneoh, but that patch isn't on maemo22:02
ceenei should make a pull request for that22:02
sicelohere's the latest qt that jonwil built
ceeneuhm, there'a few patches similar to mine22:04
ceenei'll refer him to those so he can integrate them all22:04
sicelothanks. hope that will improve things a bit :)22:04
ceenei used mostly midori on easydebian22:42
ceenethat solved most issues22:42
ceenebuf of course, if you need mail for exchange, that won't solve anything for you22:42
ceenei think my patches are already contained in what he links22:49
ceeneso, what he needs now is to open a merge request of those changes and integrate them into cssu22:49
siceloi have accepted that i can no longer use those mail accounts with N900 :(22:50
ceenei don't even know which part of the software is responsible for the mail subsystem22:52
ceeneis it dependent on the navigator?22:52
sicelobrowser? i think not (directly). aiui, mostly maemo-certman22:53
ceenei hate all security related things22:54
ceenemaemo lste seems to progress very fast22:55
siceloyeah :)22:56
siceloactually i might get another N900 soon and use it exclusively with Leste22:56
sicelo(impossible to get Droid 4 here, otherwise it's better than N900 in some respects)22:58
ceeneI see too that the kernel is almost fully upstreamed now22:59
ceenewell, time to sleep! cya! nice to see you!23:11
pigeonsdoes droid 4 have a physical keyboard too?23:15
siceloyes it does23:22

Generated by 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!