freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2018-05-24

_abc_Hi. Has anyone had trouble with the current edition of refractainstaller in advanced mode with existing partitions? I would like to do an install on a partition without backing up the entire disk, any known problems?09:37
_abc_Other than the ext4 one discussed some days ago, which I will avoid?09:37
Chain|Qplaying with ASCII RC on my RPi3+12:39
Chain|Qran into this issue:
Chain|Qalso, the firmware package itself seems to be ancient, from 2016...12:40
Chain|Q(i'm using the 64bit aarch64 version, just in case)12:42
KatolaZparazyd: ^^^^12:44
Chain|Qsigh... the latest sid package from debian fails the same way.12:47
Chain|Qeven if i create /boot/firmware by hand12:47
_abc_Hello again. Re: refracta installer in devuan ascii live: It is my understanding that the installer copies the system from the live disk to the target installation destination. What happens if the live disk is in persistent boot mode and has a lot more things installed than the vanilla bare usb stick/iso boot? Are the extras copied in too or does refracta stick to the pre-programmed lists?15:12
_abc_Am trying to read up on this, information is a bit confusing.15:14
_abc_ this sounds like I should stick to the cli install version of refracta scripts? I am targeting i386 not 64 bits-15:18
_abc_Mmh too early in N.Am. I think. 0930AM or so East coast15:21
DocScrutinizer05>>Are the extras copied in too<< aiui that's the whole point of this installer15:21
DocScrutinizer05somebody put it exatly this way, a few days ago here in this channel. Words to the effect of "I configure my system so everything is installed and works the way I like, then I install this very system from live to target"15:24
_abc_There's extra confusion caused by the refracta distribution
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: okay, famous last words, heh. We'll try. I'll be back soon, cussing a bit, likely.15:28
_abc_I would like to not back up all partitions on the disk while I wedge ascii into a 19GB partition.15:28
DocScrutinizer05ask fsmithred15:28
_abc_It's painfully slow.15:28
_abc_Yeah, I'm waiting for him to chip in a bit.15:29
_abc_Gonna fill a washing machine while waiting.15:29
msiismKatolaZ: if you don't use apt, what do you use instead?16:21
_abc_So, people awake, rise and shine?16:23
KatolaZmsiism: apt-get16:24
KatolaZ(and the occasional dselect, but honestly not that much any more...)16:25
msiismKatolaZ: ok, how does that differ from "apt"?16:26
msiismisn't that apt?16:26
KatolaZdifferent defaults16:26
KatolaZapt is a separate tool16:26
KatolaZwhich can do the same as apt-get, apt-cache, apt-file16:27
msiismoh. didn't know that.16:27
msiismis that a package of it's own?16:28
KatolaZmsiism: what?16:33
msiismif so, it can't be named "apt", since the "apt" package is the apt-* toolset (
KatolaZmsiism: they are all in the apt package16:34
msiismKatolaZ: ok, i just tested this, yes.16:34
msiismso, it's like a wrapper script16:34
KatolaZnope, apt is a separate binary16:35
msiismok, i see. confusing...16:36
KatolaZthey all link libapt-pkg, I guess16:36
msiismyes, that's kind of what it says in the package description.16:37
msiismwhy did ubuntu have to do this...16:40
* msiism is reading now16:40
KatolaZmsiism: basically, apt developers seem to believe that people are too dumb to use apt-get/apt-cache16:46
KatolaZthat's why they are "encouraging" the usage of apt, IMHO16:47
msiismKatolaZ: well, they do have a point in saying apt-* is not too well arranged ('apt-get remove' always sounds strange to me). but that's about the only point they have.16:49
KatolaZmsiism: initially poettering had only the "boot time" point for systemd, and still...16:50
msiismthey could have at least called it something else, e.g. 'sapt' (simple apt), to avaoid confusion.16:51
ttris not aptitude for this ? :D :P16:51
KatolaZyes ttr16:51
msiismttr: depends :)16:51
KatolaZand aptitute developers seem to think that people are too dumb to use either apt or apt-get/apt-cache....16:52
ttr(sarcasm was there, btw)16:52
parazydChain|Q: come over to #devuan-arm16:52
* msiism is too dumb to use aptitude's ncurses interface16:52
ttrwell, i use mostly aptitude16:52
ttrand it have almost same options as apt now (from cli)16:52
ttrand was a big update form tasksel :)16:53
KatolaZttr: I guess you mean dselect...16:53 was like 15y ago16:53
ttrso possibly :)16:53
KatolaZyes, then it's dselect16:53
KatolaZtasksel was introduced with debian-installer16:53
KatolaZ(lenny, IIRC)16:54
* ttr is happy to go on memory line :P16:54
KatolaZdselect is the "evolotion" of the original dpkg16:54
ttri've chocked :P16:54
KatolaZdeveloped by Ian Murdock16:54
KatolaZ(which had no resemblance with the dpkg we know today)16:55
KatolaZttr: you find an image of Debian 0.91beta here
FatPhilHmmm, kswapd0 is using 100% cpu, even after I've swapoff -a, any ideas what I can do17:09
ttrKatolaZ: haha :)17:11
ttrFatPhil: did it finish removing swap OR it's still doing it ?17:11
ttralso IIRC kswapd is not only for swap but for memory (RAM and SWAP) manage17:13
ttrsection 10.617:15
ttr(and i know it's for old-as-f*** kernel but it's still same concept IIRC)17:16
_abc_So, anyone had bad experiences with refracta running from a live usb stick with persistence booted usb stick? ascii? Should I install from the persistence system or boot clean into the live desktop and install the plain live desktop to avoid nasty surprizes?18:32
msiismfsmithred: ^^^18:51
carcharotI hav'a question...19:55
Leanderfeel free to ask19:57
carcharotsorry for the caps...19:57
koollmanIT DEPENDS! :)19:57
carcharotI mean....19:57
carcharotoffice software,19:58
Wonkaapt, dpkg will quite surely be preinstalled...19:58
koollmanwith default install, I guess there's a list somewhere19:58
koollmanbut even during installation you can select more stuff (or less)19:58
Wonkadefine "default install". When I installed, I chose it to be fairly minimal at first.19:58
carcharotkoollman: that's what I've being unable to find19:58
koollmanWonka: not making choices in the package or group of packages selection, I guess19:59
Wonkacarcharot: you can always do something like "apt-get install libreoffice"...19:59
koollmanthat would be 'default' to me19:59
carcharotI am a GNU/LMint user..., not a very skillful one...19:59
Wonkakoollman: I've been using Debian for quite some time, and Redhat before that, and SuSE Linux 4.4 before that...19:59
carcharotok, I'm supposed to install what I want to have there..., ok19:59
Wonkakoollman: so, yes, I know where to select and de-select stuff in installers ;)20:00
carcharotis there enough for the average end-user in the repositories?20:00
Wonkacarcharot: surely. libreoffice, for one, is good enough for quite some endusers.20:00
Wonkacarcharot: also, Firefox, Thunderbird, Chromium.20:01
LeanderI think that all office software that is available for debian is also on devuan20:01
carcharotok, perfect for me; just a last  question...20:01
WonkaLeander: likely, as it probably does not depend on systemd in any way20:02
carcharotwhat about the kernel thing? I've read that devuan is using a very old version, is it secure enough?20:02
carcharot-I'm a total ignorant-20:02
Wonkawell, I do see Linux 3.16 in stable, but I also see 4.16 in unstable.20:03
Leanderthe main version is old, but they keep patching it20:03
carcharotah, ok, that is it..., I will try devuan, wish me luck!20:03
carcharotthanks to you all, Wonka Leander and everybody else...20:04
Leanderalso, you can have a more recent kernel from the backports repository (in case you have too recent hardware)20:04
Wonkastable-security has linux-image-3.16.0-6-amd64 3.16.56-1+deb8u1; has 3.16.56 - seems as current as 3.16 gets20:04
obeardlyI had to install the 4.9 kernel from backports on my laptop.20:05
obeardlyOtherwise, it just wouldn't function.20:05
Wonka(I don't care much about distro kernels though because I compile my own. Works fine.)20:05
carcharotok, but... newer kernel does not require systemd?20:05
obeardlyNo, it does not20:06
carcharotohhh, ok20:06
Wonkamaybe the other way round - systemd might require fairly new kernels...20:06
carcharotcool! good to know20:06
Wonkabut Linus curses about systemd often enough to not allow Linux to depend on systemd.20:06
obeardlycarcharot: If you enable backports in jessie, you can install the 4.9 backports kernel without issue.20:07
carcharotMy computer is quite old, even by being of 64b, so...,20:07
Wonka(not that making a kernel depend on anything in userspace would make much sense)20:07
obeardly^ True story20:07
carcharotobeardly: thanks for the info, but I am not -sill- able to do that...20:07
Leanderthen don't worry about the backports, the 3.16 is still up-to-date with regards to security20:07
obeardlyWhy not?20:07
carcharotobeardly: It's called ignorance, I think...20:08
carcharota common decease20:08
obeardlyCan you edit a text file?20:08
obeardlyBut Leander is correct, the 3.16 kernel will work fine, especially if you're on older hardware.20:08
carcharotobeardly: It si not the text-file edition, but to know what to write in there exactly20:09
obeardlyEdit this file: /etc/apt/sources.list20:09
carcharotyes, the 3.16, if patched, will be more that enough for me...20:09
carcharotfor sure20:09
obeardlyPut this in it: deb jessie-backports main contrib non-free20:09
obeardlyThen: apt-get update20:10
obeardlyNow you have backports enabled.20:10
carcharotm, ok20:11
carcharotha, cool20:11
obeardlyAlso, I believe during install, if you're installing fresh, it will ask if you want to enable backports.  Just say yes there, and you'll have backports available.20:11
carcharotthat is nice..., maye be, after installing, I will try20:11
carcharotobeardly: sorry, what are the "backports" for?20:12
obeardlyNew packages that are backported for an older version of the OS.20:12
carcharotok, nice to know...20:12
obeardlyFor example, virtualbox is not in the standard repos, but it's in the backports repo.20:13
obeardlyAnother example, the standard install gives you kernel 3.16, but you need a newer kernel, backports has kernel 4.920:13
carcharotaha..., ok, I have a lot to learn, but sill try, thanks again20:13
obeardlyWell, this channel is full of people that are well versed, probably much more so than I am, but anyone here will do what they can.20:14
obeardlyI was a debian package maintainer/tester years ago, and I've been with Devuan since day one.20:14
obeardlyIt's phenomenal OS, and an even better community.20:14
carcharotwill try the OS, and probably will be here soon asking for help, haha20:15
carcharotobeardly: thanks again!20:15
carcharotsee you all soon!20:15
_abc_Ahh the experts are here.20:20
_abc_How risky is it to install with refracta from a loaded persistence enhanced live iso on usb?20:21
_abc_Should one drop down to plain non peristence booted live desktop and install that or it is okay to install the whole thing as is. Does persistence confuse refracta? Mount points, unionfs, etc?20:21
_abc_I've asked this several times in the last 2 days... waiting for an answer...20:22
msiism_abc_: i can't help you, sorry. you might try asking this on the d1g forum as well.20:29
* _abc_ assumes the worst, in the manner of the Byzantine generals, and goes for vanilla non persistence install20:29
_abc_msiism: d1g?20:29
_abc_So reflecta, first it was a distribution, then a script? I there no connection between the 2?20:47
obeardly_abc_: you still here?21:22
_abc_Hmm. I ran the installer from the vanilla ascii desktop live, and ended up with no grub on the partition I installed. Where is the grub normally installed, in /boot/ ?21:59
_abc_I mean it's files21:59
_abc_I have grub-common installed but grub2 is not22:02
xrogaanhas to be generated though22:02
_abc_Are you talking to me?22:02
_abc_So if I re-run the install with grub2 installed it should magically appear?22:02
xrogaangrub-mkconfig should generate a grub, normally.22:03
xrogaancheck if you have a /etc/grub.d/22:03
_abc_Need to boot into the target system 1st22:03
xrogaanor use the livecd, rescue and regenerate grub. fsmithred helped me when the netinstall would fail at the grub thingy.22:04
_abc_nope, no grub.d and no menu thing in /boot22:04
xrogaangrub.d is a folder22:05
_abc_Next: I have a dual boot system, and the nst_grub.mbr is installed (old grub) vs new AutoNeoGrub0.mbr ; I assume it should work anyway but we'll see.22:05
_abc_xrogaan: I am aware22:05
xrogaan/etc/grub.d defines how the grub menu should be built.22:06
_abc_Oh usually it's in /boot too but okay22:06
xrogaanno, /boot contains the configuration file22:06
_abc_Installing grub2 package brings in what is needed.22:06
_abc_Understood, I'll try the rescue mode now22:06
xrogaangrub.cfg usually starts with # DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE22:07
xrogaancheck the /etc/default/grub file too22:07
xrogaanif you have grub-common installed, you should have a /etc/grub.d/ folder22:07
xrogaantry to run update-grub ?22:08
xrogaanthe grub2 package is a dummy one22:11
xrogaanyou want grub2-common22:12
abcabc_common was iirc installed, no /etc/grub.d dir. after installing grub2 it appeared22:16
xrogaanthis is the content of grub2:
abcabc_the mbr question is more interesting. will see22:20
abcabc_thanks, i know what should be in it22:21
abcabc_fsmithred: has not been around  for a few days?22:21
xrogaanyeah, so grub-common is needed alongside grub2-common.22:23
xrogaanI don't know why.22:23
_abc_Beep. Okay, so I'm on ascii, installing the bootloader in a partition was a bit dicey, this process could be automated, and there could be a warning in the installer that the installer is the user not the script... I had to guess at it.23:03
_abc_So, again: 1) install grub2 package from synaptic; 2) run the installer script; 3) get into the chroot console and run the grub install commands manually, WITH CARE. the --force option for install on a partition is required and generates warnings, it works anyway. No typos allowed ;) After that one runs update-grub and exits the chroot and it's done.23:04
KnoFhi, are there any drivers for tahiti r9 280 on linux23:04
_abc_The above is for ascii install onto existing partition on multi-boot machine23:05
KnoFamds driver require some old xorg23:05
KnoFand im on ceres23:05
_abc_This message brought to you from ascii, with most data intact on the disk, I hope23:05
_abc_devuan live persistence request (I hope someone reads this): PLEASE put in a clean umount at the end of the sesstion, the persistence media is always left dirty. It can be done by remounting ro at the end, probably.23:10
gnarfaceKnoF: the version of amdgpu in ceres should work with the version of xorg also in ceres.23:16
KnoFthe driver for 280x is from 201423:17
KnoFmaybe i should do force install23:17
KnoFwill try thank you23:17
gnarfaceKnoF: since the card hasn't been around that long i'm sure you're mis-evaluating something23:19
gnarfacedon't mix repos23:19
gnarfacethat card does use amdgpu, right?23:20
gnarfacexserver-xorg-video-amdgpu (18.0.1-1) unstable; urgency=medium23:21
gnarface  * New upstream release.23:21
gnarface -- Timo Aaltonen <>  Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:02:29 +020023:21
gnarface^this is from the current ceres changelog23:21
gnarfaceoh, i guess that card IS that old23:24
* gnarface assumes what he *actually* needed was just a little more patience and a 4-line xorg.conf snippet 23:25
KnoFgnufarce will try23:29
KnoFat booting the kernel it says driver missing23:29
gnarfaceit might be present just not loaded23:29
gnarfaceyou can't jump from that to the conclusion that the xorg version is from 201423:30
gnarfacethe logic just doesn't fit with the evidence on hand23:30
KnoFim have to reboot to try, thanks for the tip23:30
KnoFi have*23:30
gnarfaceno, you don't have to reboot to try either23:30
gnarfacewho even gave you that idea?23:30
KnoFim on a different os now23:30
gnarfacewell then you do23:30
gnarfaceauto-detect probably just gives you some generic vesa or framebuffer driver23:31
gnarfaceyou'll have to override that23:31
KnoFthe funny thing is that peak fps in games with wine is the same as in windows, just not consistant23:33
gnarfacewine can be bottlenecked by stuff other than the video card (often)23:33
gnarfaceit's a really bad benchmarking suite23:33
gnarfaceyou'd be better off using glxgears23:33
gnarface(which everyone will tell you not to use for benchmarking, right up until you tell them you were gonna use wine instead)23:34
gnarfacewhat you really should be doing is reading the Xorg log file to figure out what driver is really loading, and why23:34
KnoFkk. thanks for the heads up23:35
KnoFgoing to try now, will report :)23:35
DocScrutinizer05!seen fsmithred23:39
infobotfsmithred is currently on #devuan, last said: 'it's meant to work during a live session. I have it in my installed systems because refractainstaller copies it'.23:39
DocScrutinizer05!logsearch meant to work during a live session23:40
infobot"meant to work during a live session"23:40
DocScrutinizer05GOSH, botbot is such a crap23:42

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