freenode/#devuan/ Friday, 2018-11-02

xrogaanso, err, my /run/user is empty13:58
xrogaanso is /var/run/user13:58
xrogaanI don't think it's normal, is it?13:58
xrogaanwhat would it take to get a XDG_RUNTIME_DIR?14:01
xrogaan`When looking at how to implement XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for non-systemd inits, I couldn't find any actual specification for how to do this. That's because there isn't one, just some loosely-worded descriptions; it only exists in the systemd implementation.  And the semantics of it are very poor indeed; it hasn't been developed with safety, security or flexibility in mind.`14:02
xrogaanNevermind then.14:02
xrogaanSo instead, where should I put my runtime things?14:03
xrogaanusing /tmp isn't really a great idea.14:03
amesserxrogaan: sysvinit, no system and I have:14:04
amesserset | grep XDG14:04
amesserso it works without systemd14:04
xrogaanI don't though.14:04
xrogaanI used to have something un that folder14:05
amesser /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/security$ grep -R XDG_RUNTIME_DIR .14:08
amesserÜbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei ./pam_elogind.so14:08
amesserÜbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei ./pam_gnome_keyring.so14:08
amesserso chance is high it is set by elogind session management daemon14:09
amesserif you dont want to use elogind, maybe you can workaround this somehow usiing pam_env14:10
amesserhowever, have to leave now, sorry.14:11
DocScrutinizer05purpy theme ;-D
xrogaanI use elogind14:14
xrogaanhuh, might be bugged14:16
xrogaanloginctl doesn't show my session14:18
xrogaanokay, so, if I start my session through lightdm there is no /run/user/100014:35
xrogaanif I start a session though tty, I get one.14:35
xrogaandoesn't lightdm make use of /etc/pam.d/common-session ?14:44
xrogaanthis fucking shit:
xrogaanI don't know what I did, but it seems fixed.15:12
xrogaanrestarted elogind and lightdm15:12
xrogaanI removed systemd from the greeter pam.d thing15:13
xrogaanand now, I don't have transparency in my virtual consoles anymore15:19
xrogaanI get these weird issues, I have no clue why they happens.15:32
xrogaanSometimes, dnsmasq/resolvconf don't get configured properly at network start and I have to reload /etc/networking15:33
xrogaanI meant /etc/init.d/networking*15:33
xrogaanis it sysvinit that manage all that?15:34
ExtraCrispySo Devuan on QubesOS is not a go to16:27
ExtraCrispyI think sysvinit is the caus16:27
KatolaZExtraCrispy: what is QubesOS?16:27
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: A distro.Google it.16:27
KatolaZit's based on Fedora, apparently...16:28
ExtraCrispySupposedly is the most secure distro out there.16:28
KatolaZwhich might indeed be the cause, right?16:28
KatolaZwhich one? Fedora?16:28
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: Yeah by default it is.16:28
ExtraCrispyWhat do you mean?16:29
KatolaZhow do you plan to migrate a Fedora do something that is based on Debian?16:29
KatolaZs/ do / to /16:30
ExtraCrispyOh no you misunderstood.16:31
KatolaZsorry then16:31
ExtraCrispyI am migrating a Debian 9 VM to Devuan 216:31
nemoExtraCrispy: huh. why does qubesos care about systemd?16:31
KatolaZbut you mentioned QubesOS16:31
ExtraCrispynemo: No idea.16:32
nemoI mean for the guests that is16:32
nemoExtraCrispy: maybe #qubes or #qubes_os would know16:33
ExtraCrispynemo: Yeah i just asked in #qubes16:34
nemoExtraCrispy: are you setting up as Standalone VM?16:34
nemoExtraCrispy: 'cause seems there's no limits on that... BSD... who cares16:34
nemoor are you actually trying to hack the distro to use devuan everywhere?16:34
nemoin which case not so suprising it fails16:34
ExtraCrispyNo im just migrating from Debian16:35
nemorypervenche: slt16:35
rypervenchenemo: :P16:37
fsmithredExtraCrispy, can you describe how it fails?16:38
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: Just while installing16:40
ExtraCrispyThe VM just shuts down16:40
fsmithredany error logs catch that?16:41
fsmithredand at what point does it shut down? What exactly did you do?16:41
ExtraCrispyJUst sudo apt-get install sysvinit-core16:42
ExtraCrispyAs for the ogs please wait cause i deleted the VM16:42
fsmithredok. I can't imagine that qubes polices what packages you install in a VM.16:44
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: So...18:02
ExtraCrispyIt seems,not 110% sure though,that the problem exists in 3.2 verwion of QubesOS.18:03
ExtraCrispyThe problem is that sysvinit-core removes some needed packages.18:05
ExtraCrispyAnd that makes the VM unbootable.18:05
ExtraCrispyAnd i dont know how to keep those packages with apt18:06
KatolaZExtraCrispy: you are not the first one to migrate a stretch to ascii, so this sounds strange18:07
fsmithredwhat order did you do things?18:08
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: Well it is also a QubesOS related problem.18:08
fsmithredthe way I've done it was 1. install sysvinit in debian, 2. changes sources to devuan, update, dist-upgrade 3. reboot into devuan and remove sytemd18:08
KatolaZExtraCrispy: I don't get why QubesOS should be concerned of what you run inside a VM...18:09
fsmithred1 also reboot18:09
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: Since there is no GUI i just went straight to installing sysvinit-core?18:09
fsmithredgui is irrelevant18:09
fsmithredinstall sysvinit-core, reboot, then change sources18:09
ExtraCrispyThen installing xfce4 is also irrelevant18:09
fsmithredit shouldn't remove stuff18:09
fsmithredI don't think (don't really remember)18:10
fsmithredyour debian is cli only?18:10
ExtraCrispyThe problem is sysvinit-core removes some important qubess specific packages18:10
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: Ye18:10
fsmithredthere are cubes packages in debian?18:10
ExtraCrispyOh i just got an idea.Why not apt download sysvinit-core dpkg it and do the rtest?18:11
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: Yes and all templates18:11
fsmithredcan you tell me a package name?18:12
fsmithredI'm looking in debian repo18:12
fsmithredor are they third-party packages?18:12
ExtraCrispyThird party18:12
buZzExtraCrispy: then they arent in debian ;)18:13
ExtraCrispyThey are in QubesOS repos18:13
ExtraCrispybuZz: Yeah?18:13
fsmithredso you either need to edit the templates or maybe get devuan to identify as debian18:13
fsmithreddepends on what the templates test for18:13
fsmithredand maybe play some trickery with package dependencies18:13
fsmithredfigure out why those packages get removed18:14
ExtraCrispyYeah maybe they hard-depend for some reason18:14
fsmithredwhat are you using for virtualization?18:14
fsmithredsome qubes built-in stuff?18:15
ExtraCrispyXen hypervisor18:15
fsmithredI guess qubes has some special requirements for VMs, and I have no idea what that might be.18:18
ExtraCrispyThe only issue i see is the removal of some specific packages18:19
ExtraCrispyIf i could bypass that shit then ok18:19
ExtraCrispyBut idk if tyhere is ant apt command to do that18:20
fsmithredwell, paste the error messages you get when you try to install sysv18:20
fsmithredtrack down the deps18:21
ExtraCrispyThis shows up when i do install systemd-shim as well18:23
ExtraCrispyWhich brings some different packages,sysvinit-core being one or 'em.18:23
KatolaZExtraCrispy: just get rid of qubes-core-agent and qubes-gui-agent18:26
KatolaZthey might have hard deps on systemd18:26
fsmithredand get rid of systemd-shim18:26
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: LOL?W: Download is performed unsandboxed as root as file '/home/user/sysvinit-core_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb' couldn't be accessed by user '_apt'. - pkgAcquire::Run (13: Permission denied)18:26
fsmithredactually, I don't know - I've never used it18:26
ExtraCrispyAnd the weird thing is...It is downloaded18:26
fsmithredyup. download as unpriv user18:27
ExtraCrispyFFS Debian..18:27
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: Withoiut those VM gets unbootable18:27
fsmithredwhy consolekit?18:28
fsmithredyou got a desktop?18:28
ExtraCrispyIDK why it exists18:28
ExtraCrispyMaybe for the app shortcuts?18:29
KatolaZExtraCrispy: uh>18:30
KatolaZExtraCrispy: are you using other repos on top of devuan's?18:30
fsmithredKatolaZ, he hasn't gotten to devuan yet18:31
ExtraCrispyExtraCrispy: The repos should be added after installing sysvinit no?18:31
KatolaZExtraCrispy: are you using other repos on top of debian's ones?18:32
KatolaZ(i.e., where did you get the qubes-agent packet?)18:32
ExtraCrispyYes QubesOS has their own repos18:33
ExtraCrispyWhich are essential18:33
KatolaZoh then good luck18:34
KatolaZit looks like those packages have hard deps on systemd18:34
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: Thanks18:42
KatolaZsorry ExtraCrispy18:43
KatolaZbut why don't you risk an actual install on real hardware? (or on a qemu VM?)18:43
ExtraCrispyI am not changing QubesOS.18:44
ExtraCrispyMaybe i could make it work.18:44
fsmithredqemu or virtualbox or usb (live or installed)18:45
fsmithredor repackage the qubes stuff and hack the deps18:45
fsmithredbut the fact that you might be able to install it like that, it still might not work18:45
ExtraCrispyQemu and VBox is not an option.18:46
ExtraCrispyMaybe on my laptop.18:46
ExtraCrispyfsmithred: The problem is within those packages18:47
ExtraCrispyBTW is wicd migration mandatory?18:47
fsmithredwicd is default if you install task-whatever-desktop for some of the desktops18:55
fsmithredbut if you build stuff up manually, you can have pretty much whatever you want18:56
ExtraCrispyI am building19:01
ExtraCrispyDamn sysvinit19:01
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: fsmithred I got another idea.19:14
ExtraCrispyI will pin them with hold as manually installed so they wont get removed19:15
KatolaZExtraCrispy: if they need systemd, this is probably not gonna work19:24
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: Yah19:28
ExtraCrispyKatolaZ: Well idk how to bypass that ard-deps thing19:31
* helios21 waves "Just like to say hi. I had contact one mailinglist with some of you. Just see my whois in case you like to know who is speaking here :)"21:20
KatolaZhi helios2121:23
helios21Hi KatolaZ. Thank you a lot for your work on sysvinit.21:23
golinuxhelios21: Nice to see you here.  Yeah, KatolaZ is a wizard . . .21:34
helios21golinux: :)21:37
eyalrozIs there an apt repository for newer versions of GCC/g++ for installation on ASCII? Or should I somehow install from experimental?22:24
eyalrozSomething like Ubuntu's "ppa:ubuntu-toolchain-r" ?22:26
golinuxTry backports22:27
golinuxYou can search here: pkginfo.devuan.org22:27
golinux(I didn't)22:28
eyalrozgolinux: gcc-7 is available in beowulf and ceres, but I don't see any "backports"22:47
eyalrozgolinux: Oh, and my sources.list already has ascii-backports22:48
KatolaZeyalroz: do you need gcc-7?22:58
gnarfaceit's not in backports and i'm skeptical that it can be successfully backported in the sense that it would generate binaries that don't crash randomly23:01
gnarfacebut it will work fine in a ceres chroot23:01
gnarfaceso you could just deboostrap ceres into a chroot23:02
gnarfacethen build in that23:02
eyalrozgnarface: I don't want it to replace gcc-6 as the system compiler, I just want it installed alongside it23:02
gnarfaceeyalroz: that's not the part that's holding it back23:03
eyalrozto be honest, I feel it's easier to just build it from sources into /opt/gcc-x.y.z than to debootstrap things23:03
eyalroz(which I've not done before)23:03
gnarfacei've attempted both approaches and i've directed you to the one that was easier23:04
eyalrozKatolaZ: I need something which supports most of c++1723:04
eyalrozgnarface: I didn't mean to sound ungrateful, I'm sorry.23:04
gnarfaceeyalroz: it's ok, i know it may not be clear just how much more effort backporting will be, because it seems like you'd download a lot less.  but you can't just get away with building one package for something like this.  you'll have to recursively backport all it's dependencies too, by hand.  *that's* where the real drama comes in - many of these will directly conflict with ascii in various ways23:05
KatolaZeyalroz: you could use clang also23:06
gnarfacei've got gcc 5 6 and 7 all installed concurrently on ceres, in multiple architectures, but i'm certain there's a good reason gcc7 isn't already in backports23:06
KatolaZ4.0 is in ascii23:07
KatolaZand supports the whole C++1723:07
gnarfacei actually have several 4.x versions too, i just noticed23:07
KatolaZyou also have clang 5 and clang 6 in backports23:07
eyalrozKatolaZ: Hmm, maybe23:08
eyalrozgnarface: I know what libs I need, it's ok.23:08
gnarfaceso, i've been having a problem with ascii on one machine for a while.  it started a month or two ago after an update i think.  i thought i had it locked down but it's still happening intermittently.  the ethernet device basically just self disables if i don't attach the ssh session quick enough after boot (during boot?)23:50
gnarfaceanyone seen this behavior lately?23:50
gnarfacethe machine isn't going to sleep, and disabling the powermanagement flag on the ethernet module doesn't seem to do anything23:51
gnarfaceif i log in to the machine locally the ethernet device looks up, has a valid route, just can't actually send traffic23:52
gnarfacebut if i down it then up it again, it starts working23:52
gnarfacethe ip address is statically configured23:52

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