freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-06-01

systemdleteI've tried cputool, cpulimit, and nice to try to prevent *mozilla* from eating the entire system's cpu.   None of it seems too effective to me.  I run, say, speedtest.net and I watch one of the cpu's dart over 100% (there are 2 vcpus) even though I set the limit to 40%06:34
systemdletemozilla apparently has a voracious appetite.  It does not worry about being, say, a total cpu pig, or being a "nice" person.06:35
systemdleteIt devours every last resource it can grab when it needs them.06:35
systemdleteYeah, so we all know this perhaps.  But is there anything that can be done to prevent these pigs from locking up my system?06:36
systemdlete(my VM is currently locked up)06:36
systemdlete(and I'm not even running firefox last htop updated)06:37
systemdleteoh.  it's ascii running under vbox 5.2.30 (latest).  And the only stuff I am running is the firefox-esr browser and the cpulimit tool etc06:41
systemdleteand htop06:41
systemdleteI guess I might also mention I am running xfce.  I wonder if a different desktop might change the outcomes?06:49
gnarfaceyou might be running into a bug but i don't know06:51
gnarfacedoes memory use go out of control too?06:52
gnarfacedoes one of those tools deal with cgroups?06:52
gnarfaceif not, maybe try cgroups06:52
gnarfacei don't know much about them but i think they're the new way to do CPU quotas06:53
systemdletecgroups.  I know about them, but not much.  I will examine those too.  Thanks.06:55
systemdleteit seems like a much cleaner way to do things06:56
systemdletedidn't notice memory using shooting up especially, but the main issue is that the cpu usage was shooting up over 70 or 80%, sometimes over 100%.  Another thing I read is that the tool (cputool I think) is based on a kernel running 100 Hz.  I wonder if that might be out of date06:57
gnarfacethe other thing is to make sure you're actually throttling the right process07:15
gnarfacei think in the newer versions it might spawn child processes of a different name to run javascript stuff07:16
gnarfaceand it could as easily be misbehaved javascript on some page as a problem with firefox or it's UI07:17
systemdleteWell, I used the -P option to cputool, which is supposed to capture all of the spawned processes (I think)07:18
systemdleteand in cpulimit, I used -m, which is supposed to monitor children also07:18
systemdleteBut I don't know.  I wonder if all that SIGSTOP/SIGSTART'ing might be making the problem worse.  For one thing, it is certainly not entirely deterministic, since a userland program is attempting to maintain a limit on another resource, which it has very imprecise access to.07:21
systemdletethe man pages even mention that these tools (cpulimit and cputool) could theoretically interfere with window managers.  Which it did, incidentally.  I started having heisenbug issues, where a call to, say, ps(1) would make a bug disappear.07:22
systemdletelol07:22
systemdleteyes, I think you are right.  cgroups will be the right way to do this.  The only issue is me learning cgroups.  Which I am starting to do.  This effort is worth spending the time learning it because I am sick of hung systems07:23
systemdletefreezes, long delays, etc.07:23
systemdletegnarface:  I have a question:  I see that only a part of the cgroups system is present.  It is required that I install at least a few other packages to make it functional.07:38
systemdletee.g., there is no /sys/fs/cgroup/cpu, one I would need.07:38
systemdleteI am wondering, though, if anyone knows if this has been tested or is in use anywhere in the non-systemd world07:38
systemdleteistm that cgroups, although pre-dating systemd, is sort of intertwined with it07:39
systemdlete(I could misunderstand this)07:39
grayriderre:  cgroups.  Why don't you just run systemd?  one of it's main functions is to 'manage' cgroups.07:41
grayriderI prefer something like nice or ... cpulimit -l 20 firefox07:41
pardiscgroups are perfectly usable without systemd07:41
pardisI've done stuff with cgroups from shell scripts before07:41
pardisFor /sys/fs/cgroup/cpu, surely you just need to mount the cgroup? The support should be there in the kernel even if it isn't mounted by defualt07:42
systemdletethanks pardis.  grayrider, if you are into systemd, then you are in the wrong place here!07:42
systemdletepardis:  Yes, the tutorial I am reading discusses all this.07:43
systemdleteI'll configure it appropriately.  My concern is whether cgroups is "stable" in the non-systemd world, and you have addressed this, thank you07:43
grayriderI hate systemd.  That's my point... you took the words out of my mouth.  "In shell scripts..." you can use cgroups."  Nice when we are writing servers (such as myself.)  Systemd and other  "forced" cgroup schemes get in my way.  Firefox problems is not a reason to start injecting it into the rest of the system.07:43
systemdletegrayrider:  Well, I wasn't proposing to do so.  I am simply looking at a means of limiting cpu usage by hogs like ff and tbird07:44
grayriderI wasn't sure what your proposal was.  I just know what I read and my reaction was what it was.07:45
systemdleteI tried nice and cpulimit, and cputool (see above) they do not work for me07:45
systemdleteI monitored ff with htop and saw it was using more cpu than I specified through cputool/cpulimit07:46
systemdleteand nice did not have much of an effect either.07:46
systemdletenot sure why.07:46
systemdleteI am using the standard-issue kernel that comes with the default ascii install.07:46
systemdleteI have not performed extensive reconfiguration of the system.07:47
grayriderMy ff cpu goes sky high when I read CNN.  ;)07:52
systemdlete(why would anyone read CNN?  official government line, but if that's what you like...)07:56
systemdleteso grayrider, you think I should not waste time chasing this down just for firefox?  B/c this tutorial I think tries to give such an example.07:56
grayriderPersonally, I wouldn't.08:01
gnarfacesystemdlete: sorry, i don't know.  you're showing all threads in htop though, right?08:01
gnarfacei know it's supposed to work, the tip about maybe having to mount a directory in /sys sounds vaguely familiar though08:01
gnarfacealso i don't know for sure you don't need another package, or maybe even just to load a module that is installed but doesn't load automatically08:02
grayriderwhat's the stock cpu/memory footprint of ff immediately after you load it?  Just the stock search window in a single tab?08:02
gnarfacebut the primary difference from the systemd world is usually just permissions actually08:02
gnarfacesystemdlete: grayrider sounds like he knows what to do08:02
grayriderThe problem with browsers is this:  It's a presentation platform for every f'n file type on the planet.  Any one of those "elements" on a page can suck you dry if something's not right with it.08:04
systemdleteor if it is YOOOOOJ08:04
gnarfacehmm. yea the video player would probably be some entirely different spawned thread or process too08:04
systemdletejavascript that goes on for miles08:04
gnarfacejavascript, now with memory leaks!08:05
gnarfacemake sure you're not using flash still08:05
systemdleteI didn't modify the browser, iirc08:05
gnarfacei also recommend against the bundled cisco openh264 decoder.  just disable that POS.  it's crippled compared to the native linux one08:06
systemdleteopenh264 is the only addon, and it is grayed out08:06
gnarfaceoh ok08:06
gnarfacemight be disabled by default now i'm not sure08:07
systemdleteI didn't touch it, so yeah.08:07
grayridersystemdlete:  Infowars.  I like Alex08:07
systemdletejimmy dore, but we are getting o.t.08:07
systemdletegnarface: The /sys has cgroups, and it appears that elogind is already configured, out-of-the-box on ascii08:10
systemdletegrayrider:  ff spikes a bit at the beginning, but quickly settles down to under 10% cpu and mem after a few moments (one open tab)08:13
systemdletegnarface: yes, showing all threads (tree view or filter view)08:14
systemdletegnarface:  Flash?  Unless it is installed by default, I haven't.08:15
systemdlete(sorry for the delayed response; just trying to keep up with the convo here)08:17
grayriderNow that you have your baseline... open another tab.  It should be the same cpu (~idle)... but ~2x memory08:20
systemdleteok, I admit the open tab is just preferences08:24
systemdleteor would google or duckduckgo search page be better for this?08:24
grayriderno... just getting baselines for now08:24
systemdletesince neither tab is doing anything, the only activity is some commercials and junk08:26
systemdleteeverything is under 20%08:26
systemdlete(cpu and mem)08:26
systemdletethat's with 2 search tabs open08:26
grayrideryou shouldn't even have commercials.... just open tabs to the firefox standard opening08:26
systemdletegoogle has those "pocket" ads... you know the ones that tell you about the girl who has 3 tongues and stuff08:27
systemdleteok, they're not ads really, but they are garbage08:27
grayriderif your default home page is some hijacker (or if you've got something embedded in your ff)... all bets are off.08:28
systemdleteno.  just the google.com page08:28
grayriderreset your ff back to 'defaults'... start over.08:28
systemdletesorry08:29
systemdleteI mean the mozilla ff start page08:29
systemdlete(it does have a google search bar)08:29
systemdleteI think the mozilla ff start page IS the default.  No?08:29
grayrideronce you've reset your browser to defaults... you should be able to open *almost* an unlimited number of tabs without causing your system to hang.08:29
systemdleteagreed.  What will that prove?08:30
systemdleteI mean, what is the objective to this?08:30
systemdletethat IS the default.  You get a search bar PLUS 3 links to pocket ads articles.  Including such dillies as "you can learn a new language in just 3 weeks"08:31
grayriderIf you can do that... opening an infinite number of tabs... just the default page... then your problem is being caused by an "element"(s) I mentioned before.  When that happens, it's time to take inventory of your sites that you visit.  I've seen that crap before.  In fact, "advertisements" that pop into a page can "inject" crap, too.  I've seen it many times.  I avoid those sites.08:32
systemdletebut those links... they may be static, but they still fall under the column called "trash"08:32
grayriderI don't have any ads showing up in my ff.08:33
systemdleteI am using firefox esr, 60.7 (whatever the latest in the repo)08:34
systemdletethat's the default here.  I don't know why yours is different than mine08:34
systemdleteSo, anyway, I did what you asked.  I opened 2^10 zillion tabs and no observable change in system response.  Which I'd expected.08:36
grayriderThat's what I wanted find out.  Now, just keep track of your various sites and pay attention to the ones that cause you to drag.  I "kill" chrome and ff every few days, myself.08:37
systemdleteThose ads are pretty static, actually.  And they are not really "ads" per se.  Just links to supposedly interesting articles designed to widen your horizons and enthuse you.08:37
systemdleteOh, I constantly kill ff.  And tbird.  I used to let them run for weeks and months.  but lately they have become so unstable I have to kill them, if not restart the system08:38
grayrider"Spyware"... funny how they suggest stuff that came out of your most recent email(s) and youtube vids, no?08:38
systemdleteeh... no, not these.  But I know EXACTLY what you are referring to, those "targeted" ads based on your google search history.  Why I have abandoned google (largely) for duckduckgo.  Sometimes I still have to google things though08:39
systemdleteyou know...08:39
grayriderI'm thinking they are putting keyloggers in ff or, more likely, the pages ...  I read the source for many pages that give me fits only to find 10,000 lines of jscript in 'em08:40
systemdletejust recalling.  Over the years, I've run into memory leaks with ff.  I wonder if they are back in style.08:40
systemdletekeyloggers?  For real, or just too many hours of Alex Jones?08:40
* systemdlete ducks08:40
grayriderHey,... reminder.... FF even includes "sync" now... just like Chome to Gmail/google08:41
systemdleteoh.  That.08:41
systemdleteI don't use sync.08:41
grayriderAlex... No.  He takes lessons from me.  I've been coding for 40 years08:41
systemdleteAnd I use multiple google and yahoo and aol accounts, along with other services.  Just to prevent cross-contamination.08:41
systemdleteSo you are the guy who calls in to the show each week?   LOL08:42
systemdlete(I believe you)08:42
systemdlete(and I've been coding, on and off, for 40 years, though mostly not low-level stuff)08:42
systemdleteI'm one of those "silly" people who actually use DIFFERENT passwords on each site and system.08:43
systemdlete28 letters long, that sort of thing08:43
systemdleteupper lower case, specials (if permitted), etc08:44
sixwheeledbeastI wouldn't say that's silly i do the same08:44
systemdletesixwheeledbeast:  I was being sarcastic, sorry.  Of course, it is best practices.08:44
grayriderI have a system.  Use an encrypted hash that you save in your contacts.  ssha512 that includes your password and some identifier related to the authentication site.  It's a system.08:45
sixwheeledbeastah I wasn't sure08:45
systemdlete(np.  I have a dry sense of humor. Sometimes it's even funny.)08:46
sixwheeledbeastText doesn't pass sarcasm well08:47
sixwheeledbeastBTW there is KeePass  for local password encryption/management08:47
systemdleteI find that generating long strings with something like uuidgen08:48
grayriderI don't use any of that stuff.  I have my own mail servers.  Nothing gets saved in "the cloud."  Cloud computing is for airheads and communists. ;)08:48
systemdleteDoes KeePass do anything the ff and tbird password minders don't do?08:48
systemdletegrayrider: If your house burns down (I pray not), how will you recover 40 years of hard work?08:49
systemdletefireproof NAS?08:49
systemdlete(just wondering)08:49
grayriderI keep weekly and monthly backups in a safe deposit box(es)08:50
systemdleteon thumb drives, or a SSD08:50
systemdlete?08:50
grayriderWD 4 TB Golds08:50
systemdleteThat's a lot of trips to the bank, but I guess it works.08:51
grayriderPossession is 9/10ths of the law.  Who owns the data on my disk drives?  I do.  Who owns the data on Google or Amazon?08:51
systemdleteYou know, grayrider.  Good point, actually.  A few years back, I was using a cloud service that went out of business.  It left me with nothing for a few months until I found Mega.  But Mega could go bad or unfree too.08:53
systemdleteI've been thinking about getting a safe deposit for other reasons, so you might just be on to something.08:53
grayriderI can by a 4 TB SAS drive for $200 and it lasts for 5+ years.  I can rent 4TB from Amazon for $500 per month.08:54
grayriderDonald Trump should put me in charge of DOD computers.  ;)08:55
systemdlete$500 a month?  Did you compare prices?  Just to say it, Mega offers much cheaper.08:55
systemdleteBut then you must trust his eminence08:55
systemdlete(and he's been in trouble before...)08:56
sixwheeledbeastI also use pen drives, one off site on rotation with on site one. KeePass is encrypted i don't believe FF password management is, it's also protected by a password or key08:56
systemdleteFF password management does use some sort of encryption, at least if you put a master lock on the vault.08:56
systemdletebut I don't know how hardened that is.08:57
systemdletehttps://mega.nz/propay_2, just to take a look-see08:58
systemdleteI'm not a re-seller, nor do I advocate for Mega.  I'm just pointing out that Amazon is not the only game in town for mass cloud storage08:58
systemdletefyi only, ok?08:59
systemdleteof course, mega doesn't back up your cloud.  But for me, that is kind of redundant.  I figure I'll lose either my data at home, or my data in the cloud.  not likely both.09:00
grayriderTakes me 1/2 hour to copy 4TB from one disk to another.  It takes a couple of days to transmit that much to "the cloud."  If I need to download it, it takes me 2 more days.  Why would anyone use "the cloud"?  Ignorance is bliss.09:00
systemdletegrayrider:  I use bareos (nee bacula) to do incrementals each night to hard disk "tapes" which are then copied to the cloud real time (more or less).09:01
systemdleteSo it is only a few minutes delay between backup and cloud sync.09:01
systemdleteThis has been working for me for years.  I've never yet had an out-and-out disaster, but I'm ready if it does happen.09:02
grayriderdelete your partition.  Try to do a system recovery in an hour.  A day.  And a week.  Then you'll see Mega (or whatever) ain't worth spit.09:03
systemdleteactually, I did  a rehearsal of disaster recovery a few years ago.  yes, it took some time, but everything was restored hunkey-doree09:03
grayriderHaven't you noticed that "real companies" own their own disk drives?  (That makes Google, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, etc...  a 'real company'. Anything else is a "virtual" company" who merely rents a room in a hotel.09:05
grayriderWith housekeepers that come in an "clean" your room, make your bed, and throw away your condoms.  :)09:05
systemdletewell, it is late here.  Time to watch some television, then sleep.09:06
systemdletenight all. thanks for all the feedback.  Gives me somethings to think about09:07
grayriderLater09:08
gnarfacesystemdlete: maybe try disabling "pocket" https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/disable-or-re-enable-pocket-for-firefox09:26
cynicfmhi10:18
cynicfmhow r things going here? :)10:18
redrickcynicfm:  In most relevant time zones, people are sleeping.  May I help you with any Devuan matters, though?10:32
redrick(Or perhaps someone else.  My offer of help may have been a little hasty, as I'm fading fast towards sleep.)10:34
cynicfmwell have a good sleep then it's early morning here 10 am :P10:34
XenguyFuck Trump, again13:16
Xenguyoops, wrong channel13:16
EHeMHaving the channel silently ignore people unless they auth to NickServ is rather unfriendly.23:31
MinceRletting spammers fill the channel with crap, even more so23:35
debdogparanoid IT peeps23:37
specingyou can register, its not hard23:39
specingand freenode wont datamine your life like some other services23:39
debdogthe key word here is _silent_23:39
debdogright now I don't eben know whether you guys can read me or not. with my other nick, registered to the same account, I was not able to talk23:40
debdog*even23:40
debdogsee? I am silent23:42
MinceRhi silent, i'm dad23:43
* debdog is _really_ uncertain right now. specing, can you read me?23:43
debdogor MinceR23:43
debdogor gnarface23:43
debdogor golinux23:43
MinceRyes, i can23:43
debdogok23:43
debdogphew23:44
golinuxYup.  But doesn't require human verification.  You can always check by looking at the logs:  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/23:50

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