| brocashelm | sfox: elogind is systemd's logind forked for systems not using it (e.g. runit, sysvinit, openrc, s6) | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| brocashelm | sfox: there are alternatives that you could also try like seatd or consolekit2 | 00:02 |
| sfox | why would i want that? | 00:02 |
| Xenguy | I'm not sure if it is relevant in this case, but when I did an apt-get dist-upgrade from ASCII to Beowulf... | 00:03 |
| brocashelm | elogind is a hard dependency of many packages, and without something else in its place, your system can get nuked (especially if you use gtk/qt programs) | 00:04 |
| Xenguy | There were some funky dependencies that were not resolved... | 00:04 |
| brocashelm | as of chimaera, elogind is pushed more than ever | 00:04 |
| Xenguy | fsmithred helped me get that sorted out manually (I would not have been able to resolve it on my own) and the gist of it was (I think) I needed to replace consolekit with elogind | 00:05 |
| brocashelm | removing elogind automatically makes apt prompt you with an install of consolekit2 (at a minimum, you lose programs like network-manager, gvfs, and udisks2 if you don't need those) | 00:05 |
| Xenguy | ^^ Hope I got that right | 00:05 |
| brocashelm | so if you don't even have consolekit2 installed, then you are prompted with more core packages being removed due to that hard dependency on either of those two (elogind and consolekit2) | 00:05 |
| brocashelm | so "disabling" elogind is not an option IIRC | 00:06 |
| Xenguy | So I get the impression that elogind is the preferred more recent software of the two, but again I am no expert at all | 00:06 |
| sfox | so if it's a package dependency, | 00:06 |
| brocashelm | elogind is the systemd of non-systemd distros now | 00:06 |
| sfox | can i stop it from locking and rebooting my computer all the time with rc-update disable elogind? | 00:06 |
| sfox | elogind is super buggy | 00:07 |
| brocashelm | it's bloated | 00:08 |
| brocashelm | like i said, hard dependency. removing it is possibly the worst thing you can do (aside from dbus) if you want a functional desktop | 00:08 |
| sfox | I can't use my laptop without having to open the lid, login, wait for the it to suspend, press power button, hope nothing broke, login again, hope nothing else screwy happens | 00:08 |
| brocashelm | maybe check with the acpi packages there? | 00:09 |
| brocashelm | depending on your DE, xfce's power manager is pretty straight-forward about what to do when you press a button or close the lid | 00:09 |
| sfox | i'm not using a DE | 00:12 |
| sfox | i was using ACPId in beowulf | 00:12 |
| brocashelm | i see there's repowerd available | 00:15 |
| brocashelm | it's a daemon for power management | 00:15 |
| Xenguy | sfox: Again this may or may not be relevant to your use case, but to suspend my laptop, I use the 'pm-suspend' command; it is found in the 'pm-utils' package... | 01:00 |
| Xenguy | There are ways to map this to the 'function' keys of some laptops, but running the command itself often works just fine, depending on your hardware | 01:01 |
| gnarface | sfox: not sure what's best in your case. do you have a /etc/elogind/sleep.conf? | 01:11 |
| gnarface | i would disable it as a test, just to help diagnose the actual issue | 01:13 |
| gnarface | but i still think there's some line in a config that you can use to disable just the one feature that's tripping up | 01:14 |
| sfox | let me check | 01:27 |
| sfox | actually rc-update delete elogind seems to of fixed the issue | 01:28 |
| gnarface | well that just disables the whole thing | 01:29 |
| gnarface | but i can't be sure wasn't doing something you still want it to do | 01:29 |
| sfox | gnarface, I don't have a /etc/elogind/sleep.conf | 01:29 |
| gnarface | hmm, odd | 01:29 |
| gnarface | and there's no [sleep] section in the main config? | 01:29 |
| sfox | there is, but everything's commented out | 01:30 |
| sfox | /etc/elogind/logind.conf [Sleep] section | 01:30 |
| gnarface | check the docs on the commented options, maybe one of them just disables the extra sleep state request that's firing | 01:30 |
| sfox | well why do i even want elogind? | 01:31 |
| sfox | I'm not sure i was using it in beowulf | 01:31 |
| gnarface | well maybe you don't, but it's necessary for some graphical logins | 01:31 |
| sfox | is it needed for slimlick? | 01:31 |
| gnarface | no idea | 01:31 |
| gnarface | try "apt-cache rdepends elogind" | 01:32 |
| gnarface | or wait, maybe it's just depends not rdepends, i always get them confused | 01:33 |
| gnarface | "aptitude why elogind" should also work | 01:33 |
| gnarface | anyway, you can just disable it if that's working for you | 01:33 |
| gnarface | i usually don't use it here but i don't use a graphical login either | 01:33 |
| gnarface | there's consolekit as an alternative but it doesn't support all the same graphical logins | 01:34 |
| gnarface | if you're just using "startx" to get into Xorg you probably don't need it | 01:34 |
| sfox | https://bpa.st/3NYLY | 01:34 |
| gnarface | paste.debian.net please if you want me to look | 01:34 |
| sfox | http://paste.debian.net/1274650/ | 01:36 |
| gnarface | it would be rdepends i guess sorry | 01:37 |
| sfox | http://paste.debian.net/1274651/ | 01:38 |
| sfox | i don't have ukui or 'podman' or mate installed | 01:38 |
| gnarface | the going theory here is that you have some redundant hook firing in both elogind and acpid which is causing the issue. you should in theory be able to disable the one in elogind without disabling the whole thing, but off the top of my head i don't know how | 01:38 |
| gnarface | hmm | 01:38 |
| sfox | i don't seem to have an dependencies using elogind | 01:38 |
| gnarface | maybe it was pulled in as a recommend | 01:39 |
| sfox | oh i see | 01:39 |
| sfox | i can't remove it eithe | 01:39 |
| sfox | r | 01:39 |
| gnarface | go ahead and disable it and reboot to see if anything breaks | 01:39 |
| sfox | otherwise a whole bunch of packages which aren't even using elogind get uninstalled | 01:39 |
| sfox | why would slim need elogind? | 01:39 |
| sfox | ktimer | 01:39 |
| sfox | rebooting.. | 01:40 |
| gnarface | i do think it's expected for slim to need elogind, but i'm not clear on why were' not seeing it in this list, maybe it's removed one or two steps up the dependency tree | 01:40 |
| sfox | ok back | 01:41 |
| sfox | yeah everything seems to work fine | 01:42 |
| sfox | it's just the out-of-order locking where the system suspends before slock finished executing | 01:42 |
| gnarface | i think it's possible you may just loose some functionality like the ability to power down by UI as a non-root user | 01:43 |
| sfox | hmm | 01:43 |
| gnarface | but maybe anything not requiring root access will still work | 01:43 |
| sfox | well i have a real power button i could use and i'm the only user of this computer so i can just set a stickybit on those binaries | 01:44 |
| sfox | speaking of | 01:44 |
| gnarface | that's basically what things like elogind are for, they're for allowing root functionality to the non-root user for some specific power and session management tasks | 01:44 |
| sfox | why do we need a whole daemon and xml based permissions to turn off a computer instead of a setguid stickybit on power managmeent executables? | 01:44 |
| gnarface | i don't know man, i still just use su, the whole thing seems like a giant security hole-punch to me | 01:45 |
| sfox | well thanks for the help | 01:45 |
| gnarface | on the systems i'm not sharing with anyone, i just log in from the text prompt and run startx | 01:46 |
| sfox | on the systems i do share, i just add users to wheel who manage the system | 01:46 |
| gnarface | the whole thing to me seems like a childish attempt to chase behavioral parity with commercial operating systems | 01:47 |
| gnarface | you can uninstall it and all its dependencies if you don't use any graphical logins | 01:48 |
| gnarface | but then if you're also not running Xorg as suid root... obviously you lose access to your graphical power buttons. do we still need those when we have physical power buttons and the "shutdown" command? well it depends on who you're trying to impress, i guess. | 01:49 |
| gnarface | you got two types of people out there basically; the type of person who adapts their mind to fit the task as necessary, and the type of person who will rage quit their job if the computer requires them to type a password to shut it down | 01:55 |
| gnarface | i do still think there's probably a way to make elogind behave without throwing the whole thing out the airlock but i really don't know the specifics, and there's a possibility some hardware or driver level issue is the real culprit here | 01:59 |
| gnarface | fsmithered might know more from working with this setup | 01:59 |
| sfox | I'm open to exploring it but the description of what it is to me of something taken from systemd makes me biased against it | 02:09 |
| sfox | assume it's some kind of poorly made and thought out EEE takeover from redhat | 02:09 |
| gnarface | that's basically the truth of it, but it's important to remember the enemy is systemd-logind in this case. elogind is what's actually trying to save people from systemd. | 02:12 |
| gnarface | or one of the things, anyway. | 02:12 |
| gnarface | designed as a drop in replacement with out the explicit systemd tie-in | 02:13 |
| gnarface | sfox: it would actually be interesting to find out if systemd-logind is misbehaving the same way on your hardware | 02:20 |
| gnarface | though if debian removed acpid that might be hard to test | 02:21 |
| gnarface | but it also seems like if the problem was that simple more people would be seeing it | 02:21 |
| brocashelm | seatd is a more minimal replacement for it, but elogind is the harder dependency | 02:30 |
| brocashelm | elogind is constantly fighting upstream decisions while seatd goes a simpler, minimalistic direction | 02:31 |
| brocashelm | kind of like switching from sudo to doas | 02:31 |
| brocashelm | if nothing else, try another distro that does not have systemd or elogind by default | 02:32 |
| brocashelm | antix, hyperbola, pclinuxos, etc. | 02:33 |
| xrogaan | I'm on Daedalus. On powerdown, the networking stuff tells me it can't configure networking interface. Can't find the exact error message though. ANybody with that issue? | 21:00 |
| gnarface | xrogaan: seems strange that it's trying to configure it on power down... you using network-manager? | 22:16 |
| debdog | I am almost certain I have seen this on my laptop when the eth0 cable is pulled during shutdown. tried to reproduce it right now didn't work. | 22:30 |
| debdog | maybe it has t be pulled at a certain point. I use wicd there | 22:30 |
| debdog | on Cimaera that is. not sure about Beowulf | 22:39 |
| fsmithred | 'allow hotplug eth0' vs. 'auto eth0' issue? | 22:45 |
| xrogaan | gnarface: it's not configuring it, but cleaning removing something | 22:45 |
| xrogaan | Shutdown is too fast, I can't really read everything properly | 22:46 |
| systemdlete | This is more about hardware. My FX8350 on the PC I use the most is running around 79.2C. The output from sensors says the critical level is 80C and the hysteresis is 77C. There is a lot of dust clogging the heat sync on the CPU, and I think the fan blades may be dusty also. I will clean it soon, but is this a serious problem for a | 22:46 |
| systemdlete | FX8350, being that it is said to be a hot-running CPU? | 22:46 |
| xrogaan | smell test would tell me it's something about mounting network file system, and a clean unmount at shutdown. But that's a stretch. | 22:46 |
| gnarface | there should be a way to get a log of it | 22:47 |
| xrogaan | systemdlete: yes | 22:47 |
| systemdlete | yes... it is serious or it is normal for FX8350 to run this hot? | 22:48 |
| debdog | In my case nfs was not the issue. | 22:48 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: it's about 50 degrees higher than mine at idle | 22:48 |
| xrogaan | temp at idle or during use? | 22:48 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: i'd say it's a serious problem. clean that fucking fan | 22:48 |
| systemdlete | ok, gotcha. Will do sooner than later. I need to get some compressed air. | 22:49 |
| systemdlete | best way to clean the fins of the sync? | 22:49 |
| xrogaan | systemdlete: it's very bad. | 22:49 |
| xrogaan | https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/fx-8350 | 22:49 |
| xrogaan | Max. Operating Temperature (Tjmax) | 22:49 |
| xrogaan | 61°C | 22:49 |
| gnarface | i have a really nice fan on mine, so it's reasonable to expect that you may only be 30 degrees higher than what you should be at idle, but i'd shut it down and take the fan off the heatsync then take compressed air and a vacuum cleaner to it | 22:49 |
| fsmithred | ??? | 22:49 |
| fsmithred | I'd expect 61C to be minimum operation temp on FX chip | 22:50 |
| xrogaan | it's stated as max though | 22:50 |
| gnarface | fsmithred: nah i have the same cpu here with a noctua fan and it idles below 35 | 22:50 |
| fsmithred | oh, ok | 22:50 |
| gnarface | fsmithred: maybe with stock cpu cooler and that shitty clay junk as thermal compound you'd get 60 but i take my shit more seriously than that | 22:51 |
| systemdlete | I will also clean the intake and outtake fans on the case while I'm at this. And I'll see if I can clean up the PS fan(s) if possible. | 22:51 |
| gnarface | fsmithred: nice aftermarket cooler and arctic silver thermal compound beats everything stock | 22:51 |
| fsmithred | I'm used to looking at laptop temps. I can warm them up a lot making isos. | 22:51 |
| systemdlete | I have a wraith that came with the CPU. But this is like the first version of the wraith I think. There are better ones now. | 22:52 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: make sure all those fans even work still | 22:52 |
| systemdlete | (aftermarket) | 22:52 |
| systemdlete | gnarface: They turn and they are pretty quiet. | 22:52 |
| xrogaan | tjmax means that reaching that temperature the CPU's thermal control system kicks in to reduce power and limit temperature. | 22:52 |
| systemdlete | and they do vary in speed sometimes. | 22:52 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: 80 idle sounds like temperatures from a laptop with a dead fan | 22:52 |
| systemdlete | desktop fan | 22:52 |
| systemdlete | desktop sysstem | 22:52 |
| systemdlete | (shit) | 22:53 |
| systemdlete | this is a desktop. | 22:53 |
| fsmithred | clean dust first | 22:53 |
| gnarface | dust in the main heatsync can be a serious problem for heat transfer | 22:53 |
| systemdlete | then what? | 22:53 |
| fsmithred | then re-check temp. | 22:53 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred, "clean dust first"--then what | 22:53 |
| systemdlete | oh | 22:54 |
| gnarface | start with that, just do it good. then check the temperature again | 22:54 |
| fsmithred | If you remove any dust, you will see a difference in temperature. | 22:54 |
| systemdlete | yeah, that was what I had in mind too | 22:54 |
| systemdlete | ok guys, gotta shut this beast down. | 22:54 |
| systemdlete | go get some compressed air. | 22:54 |
| fsmithred | get some cats and you can watch the machine shut down when it overheats | 22:54 |
| systemdlete | I'm also going to clean and replace the thermal paste (I only use a tiny drop, I know...) | 22:54 |
| systemdlete | (I think I'm allergic to cat hair and dog dander) | 22:55 |
| systemdlete | (no pets here at this time) | 22:55 |
| fsmithred | yeah, amd stock heatsinks use a sticky pad, not silver paste | 22:55 |
| systemdlete | (and I don't have any hair to speak of... LOL) | 22:55 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred, so is it good to replace it with grease (thermal paste)? | 22:56 |
| systemdlete | is it better? | 22:56 |
| systemdlete | or leave it alone | 22:56 |
| fsmithred | I've done both | 22:57 |
| fsmithred | if cleaning the dust doesn't get it cooler, then maybe you should replace it | 22:57 |
| systemdlete | ok, great. thanks everyone. You guys are the best, always. | 22:57 |
| fsmithred | brb | 22:57 |
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