| clemens3 | i am on linux from scratch on build my own browser, and finally with rust nightmare building from source i gave up on firefox.. now on falkon only, and so far so good | 16:17 |
|---|---|---|
| clemens3 | on=and | 16:17 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I suggested Librewolf a little while ago. It honestly seems an improvement, all the things they change I do to FF anyway. | 16:22 |
| nemo | clemens3: I'm still building seamonkey from scratch on my gentoo machine. | 18:06 |
| nemo | clemens3: my only rust issue on that one was gentoo not packaging the 32 bit rust at one point, so I had to use rustup | 18:06 |
| nemo | not a problem recently though | 18:07 |
| nemo | the actual build happened pretty much seamlessly, but that's probably a credit to gentoo's build scripts | 18:07 |
| nemo | my recollection is all of mozilla's build scripts tend to be a bit nightmarish even when working off of their instructions on MDN | 18:07 |
| nemo | sixwheeledbeast: do you build librewolf from scratch? | 18:08 |
| nemo | because otherwise that doesn't really solve his build issues | 18:08 |
| nemo | since it's pretty much just sensible privacy and security defaults | 18:08 |
| nemo | clemens3: one funny thing is the machine I'm building seamonkey on has only a gig of ram ☺ so builds are not fast. | 18:09 |
| nemo | so. question for devuan devs that confuses me a bit | 18:10 |
| nemo | If you go to https://www.devuan.org/ you see that Chimæra 4.0 is the current stable release. | 18:10 |
| nemo | it links to this very old release announcement. https://www.devuan.org/os/announce/chimaera-release-announce-2021-10-14 | 18:10 |
| nemo | which claims 4.0 is based off of bullseye 11.1 | 18:10 |
| nemo | now... bullseye is on 11.6 at this point, with 11.7 in the works | 18:11 |
| nemo | does that mean chimæra is on ... 4.5? | 18:11 |
| nemo | and the frontpage just hasn't been updated? | 18:11 |
| nemo | also, while I'm asking about releases. there was a hard freeze for debian 12 recently that probably helps stability quite a bit. I was curious if that had made it into devuan yet | 18:12 |
| nemo | ... and I guess both of these questions would probably go to fsmithred who seems most knowledgeable about packaging and releases ☺ | 18:13 |
| nemo | so I guess the TLDR for fsmithred would be... "Is Chimæra *really* still on 4.0" and "Is Dædalus safe to use routinely, esp as a remote machine" | 18:25 |
| nemo | FatPhil: WRT firefox becoming unusably slow... what does about:support have to say about your graphics? also are you using X11 forwarding/xrdp? | 18:26 |
| nemo | FatPhil: also probably easiest way to downgrade would just be to download a zip off the mozilla website ☺ | 18:26 |
| nemo | probably not a good idea security-wise though, probably better to fix the slowness | 18:27 |
| FatPhil | nemo: alas I can't pull up the old browser, as it was purged on the downgrade | 18:29 |
| fsmithred | nemo, yes, chimaera is really on 4.0.0 and the fact that the live-isos are 4.0.2 was because the first two builds were screwed up. | 18:30 |
| nemo | interesting. but 4.0.0 is presumably now 11.6 and not 11.1 | 18:31 |
| fsmithred | and yes, daedalus seems to be very usable. If you wait a few minutes, I can tell you when I last updated my daedalus and how many updates there were. I'm guessing it's below 40 packages per day by now. | 18:31 |
| fsmithred | I meant 50. | 18:31 |
| nemo | I'm surprised it's that many at this point | 18:31 |
| nemo | FatPhil: well. probably for the best. so your existing unusably slow one. what dos about:support have to say about graphics? | 18:32 |
| fsmithred | netinstall always gets you the latest packages, and you can do that with any of the installer isos. (I know you already know that, but I'm mentioning it anyway. Someone else might need to know.) | 18:32 |
| nemo | fsmithred: ah. right. that would be the only issue with not rereleasing chimæra - you wouldn't get the latest on non-net. | 18:33 |
| nemo | which I guess could be a bit of a pain if at some point between 11.0 and 11.6 there were some driver fixes to, say, network drivers ☺ | 18:33 |
| nemo | probably rather unlikely though | 18:34 |
| fsmithred | and point-releases actually require a lot of work outside of just making new isos. | 18:34 |
| nemo | fair 'nuff | 18:35 |
| fsmithred | on a slow connection here - apt update will take a few minutes. | 18:35 |
| nemo | basically I want hg fa --deleted 'cause it's awesomesauce, but I didn't have it on my devuan VM at work ☺ | 18:36 |
| nemo | and there's a big version jump in hg between chimæra and dædalus | 18:36 |
| fsmithred | wow. only 66 packages to upgrade in daedalus. Last upgrade was 02 Apr | 18:37 |
| FatPhil | nemo: it's very noisy output, lots of references to webrender, mesa, haswell, not much of it means much to me. | 18:40 |
| FatPhil | oh, I'm getting proper herpyderpy - my open tabs were all in my palemoon, not my firefox (they ran in parallel, don't ask). However, with X copy/paste it matters not one whit! | 18:45 |
| FatPhil | if I can actually get it to work - the firefox on the remote machine has pulled up a restore session tab, I clicked through, and the old tabs appeared, but the browser's now not responding at all (30 seconds since I clicked on a tab, and nothing yet) | 18:47 |
| FatPhil | oooh, the tab bit of the tab has changed colour, I presume this will be sloooooow.... | 18:49 |
| brocashelm | fsmithred: i enabled ceres just to continue getting routine updates whenever possible, plus seeing some packages i like just entered that | 19:07 |
| fsmithred | It turned out that I only got 55 updates. 12 packages were held back. | 19:08 |
| nemo | FatPhil: remote machine. so you are using ssh -Y perhaps? or XRDP? | 19:31 |
| nemo | FatPhil: or VNC? | 19:32 |
| FatPhil | I'm just using ssh -X, I don't know -Y | 19:33 |
| FatPhil | one of the tabs I restored was animated, so that's probably to blame. I've just returned from the shops and will now attempt to kill it | 19:34 |
| FatPhil | strangely, the remote firefox is using next to zero CPU on either machine, but it's not rendering the tabs with any haste at all. | 19:35 |
| FatPhil | However, copy-paste of URLs has worked between remote and local browsers once, so proof of concept is a success | 19:36 |
| nemo | FatPhil: ok. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1263222 then | 19:36 |
| nemo | FatPhil: I ran into this many many years ago | 19:36 |
| nemo | FatPhil: if you're connecting between machines that are entirely yours, ssh -Y is more likely to not break things since it is trusted. | 19:37 |
| nemo | heh. my first comment in that bug is 7 years ago ☺ | 19:38 |
| nemo | FatPhil: the one concern is they've been talking about removing it for years which sucks | 19:40 |
| FatPhil | it looks like -Y won't change anything, but -C could do, I'll reconnect... | 19:41 |
| nemo | FatPhil: no. I mean. try flipping that pref flag | 19:42 |
| nemo | FatPhil: it might possibly still work if they haven't stripped xrender support | 19:42 |
| nemo | -C only helps on slow networks | 19:42 |
| nemo | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1375801 another bug discussing this | 19:42 |
| nemo | otherwise, welp... vnc... | 19:42 |
| nemo | but yeah, it totally broke xrdp firefox which was annoying | 19:42 |
| FatPhil | my network is 100Mb/s, and the machines currently share a hub. | 19:44 |
| FatPhil | sshd is now hammering away at the CPU! | 19:44 |
| phogg | I love seeing a regression closed as WONTFIX without explanation | 19:47 |
| FatPhil | nemo: I did -YC, and it did seem nippier after an initial lockup. I managed to copy over all the tabs to the new machine's browser. | 19:47 |
| FatPhil | now for the palemoon, with 10x as many tabs, wish me luck... | 19:47 |
| FatPhil | phogg: I imagine a response of "Solution: don't use firefox over network" | 19:48 |
| nemo | FatPhil: well. vnc will work... and I imagine wayland's crude "copy over a bitmap" will work too | 19:51 |
| FatPhil | reading down that 2nd bug report now, it's screaming "firefox is treating its window as a framebuffer and thus will require complete redraws after changes" to me. | 19:51 |
| FatPhil | (Of course, it will actually use dirty rectangles) | 19:51 |
| nemo | FatPhil: well, yeah, firefox has to do that for websites. it has its own very complex rendering layer | 19:51 |
| FatPhil | ((I hope!)) | 19:52 |
| nemo | FatPhil: but. it was reasonably usable remotely with xrender. no longer though | 19:52 |
| nemo | FatPhil: and so long as you can still enable that pref to turn on xrender ssh -YC should still mostly work | 19:52 |
| nemo | once they get rid of xrender completely we are SOL | 19:52 |
| nemo | apart from vnc | 19:52 |
| FatPhil | not sure what xrender is, or where the option is | 19:52 |
| nemo | FatPhil: it's mentioned in the first bug I sent you | 19:52 |
| nemo | like. at the top | 19:52 |
| FatPhil | they canna take our xrendas! | 19:53 |
| nemo | The pref is "gfx.xrender.enabled" | 19:53 |
| FatPhil | the first one was written from a perspective of someone who already knew what was going on! | 19:53 |
| nemo | but again. all this is 7 years old at this time. who knows if xrender is still maintained | 19:53 |
| nemo | firefox has had a *lot* of rendering layers over the years | 19:54 |
| nemo | I guess I could update my m-c checkout to see if the pref actually does anything anymore | 19:55 |
| FatPhil | there's no reference to xrender on the remote browser's about:support. there is this: "Compositing WebRender (Software)" | 19:55 |
| nemo | but frankly by the time I've done that you'll have probably fixed it already | 19:55 |
| nemo | FatPhil: yeah... it's an about:config prf | 19:56 |
| nemo | *pref | 19:56 |
| nemo | you can also manually add it to prefs.ini | 19:56 |
| nemo | which avoids pain of using a broken UI remotely | 19:56 |
| nemo | er. prefs.js sorry | 19:56 |
| nemo | nemo@nautilus ~/.mozilla/seamonkey $ grep xrender */prefs.js | 19:57 |
| nemo | user_pref("gfx.xrender.enabled", true); | 19:57 |
| FatPhil | there's no gfx.xrender in about:config | 19:57 |
| nemo | yes | 19:57 |
| nemo | it's a hidden pref these days | 19:57 |
| nemo | it has to be manually added | 19:57 |
| nemo | now whether it actually *does* anything anymore... | 19:57 |
| nemo | FatPhil: the other thing you could experiment with, if this fails horribly, is to disable webrender... it might be that other layers perform better in software emulation than webrender | 19:58 |
| FatPhil | As long as I avoid "live" webpages, everything seems to be working nicely now. | 20:03 |
| FatPhil | there's no reason for me to want to access those on a remote machine, so it's an official CLOSED/NOTAPROBLEM | 20:04 |
| nemo | FatPhil: for sure | 20:04 |
| nemo | FatPhil: ok. you might want to install noscript/umatrix/adblock on the remote machine | 20:04 |
| nemo | which helps tons with websites with video crap | 20:04 |
| nemo | FatPhil: so... if you want this to keep working, maybe you could comment on the bug that this was a useful fix for you | 20:05 |
| FatPhil | the reason I was running both palemoon and firefox was to kinda sandbox the "live" pages in the more modern browser that needed them. 90% of my crap is PlainOldText(TM) | 20:05 |
| nemo | I'm always worried they'll go back someday and strip it out thinking no one cares anymore | 20:05 |
| nemo | FatPhil: ah... I don't trust palemoon to stay sufficiently patched | 20:05 |
| nemo | plus, I like most of the recent firefox features with a few exceptions | 20:06 |
| nemo | FatPhil: plain old text I use tmux + w3m ☺ | 20:06 |
| nemo | I have like a dozen tabs open in w3m right now | 20:06 |
| FatPhil | hmmm, is the setting "gfx.xrender = true" or "gfx.xrender.enabled;true" ? | 20:06 |
| FatPhil | I didn't add the .enabled to the thing I added, perhaps I'm not even using it! | 20:07 |
| nemo | FatPhil: see my grep above | 20:08 |
| nemo | well who knows if it does anything | 20:08 |
| FatPhil | awww - the palemoon with 8 windows and ~40 tabs is running as sweet as a sweet thing! | 20:39 |
| FatPhil | (remotely, that is, over ssh -YC) | 20:39 |
| FatPhil | dragging the corner to resize a window with nothing but simply-marked-up text is as quick as a local window | 20:40 |
| FatPhil | All hail network transparency! | 20:40 |
| FatPhil | OK, some niggly niggles with the browser, I'll take that to off-topic | 20:47 |
| nemo | FatPhil: well. unfortunately the reason palemoon is working is due to just how old it is. so god knows what vulnerabilities it has | 20:49 |
| nemo | but. yes. I do love being able to work on stuff remotely like that | 20:49 |
| FatPhil | with noscript (set to everything off unless I'm 100% sure) and adblock, my attack surface is pretty small. | 20:51 |
| nemo | FatPhil: that does help... as long as they patch codecs, ssl and whatnot. | 21:03 |
| FatPhil | no codecs needed - I'm a yt-dlp/mplayer guy | 21:25 |
| FatPhil | of course, a gif-of-death might kill me | 21:26 |
| rwp | I had to convert from mplayer to mpv due to practicality of mpv working and mplayer not working and not being alive anymore. | 22:51 |
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