| spine-o-saurus | i try running apt update and it says merged daedalus InRelease is not valid until another 4h 20min. updates will not be applied? | 07:01 |
|---|---|---|
| spine-o-saurus | finally,had to reinstall from beginning | 07:22 |
| rwp | spine-o-saurus was having clock problems. | 17:15 |
| systemdlete2 | can't start x because there is no /run/xorg.sock or something like that | 18:42 |
| gnarface | systemdlete2: can you get the exact error text? | 18:44 |
| gnarface | /run/xorg.sock isn't close enough to anything real we can go on | 18:45 |
| avbox24 | What would one recommend to set up a mail server on Devuan (incl. web mail front end)? Fix public ip address is available. The question is more does it make sens to use softwae like mailcow or iredmail or is there a good documentation to to it directly with postfix? | 20:39 |
| rwp | avbox24, You have several questions in there. 1) Devuan is very good for a mail server. I use it for my own mail server. Rock solid. Use postfix+opendkms+dovecot+roundcube+crm114. But the problem is that if you have to ask then you probably shouldn't run your own because it is somewhat involved. But if you do want to run your own mail server then you definitely should! Email is designed for being distributed. | 20:46 |
| gnarface | i just recommend exim4+courier-imaps. webmail is a mistake. | 20:47 |
| rwp | It's one of those things that the result is composed of an inventory of independent things that all must work together. | 20:47 |
| rwp | I set up roundcube for the people who are using it to use. They seem to like it. I use mutt on local Maildir/'s myself. Mutt FTW! | 20:48 |
| rwp | Additionally many people use Thunderbird, CLAWS, K-9 Mail, other tablet apps, using IMAPS and that seems to keep them happy. Too slow for me which is why I use mutt with local files. | 20:49 |
| rwp | I have been getting an earful about how the recent upgrade to Thunderbird is vile and everyone hates it and most have reverted to previous versions. Hopefully Mozilla will see the light and revert some of the breakage they introduced in Thunderbird there. | 20:50 |
| golinux | I don't run roundcube but use it as a web interface. It is still possible to install the classic Larry theme! | 20:55 |
| avbox24 | Thank you very much for all your inputs. First it must be web based because of the usage for the family members. Roundcube I have on test instance I think it is ok but not brilliant. The question was if someone had problems running mailcow or iredmail or mail-in-a-box scripts? Bu I see that setting from scratch seems to be more what is done. Thank | 21:15 |
| avbox24 | you for your advise. | 21:15 |
| rustyaxe | roundcube has a lot of addons available that make it pretty complete | 21:16 |
| gnarface | i've never even heard of those. the only open source webmail program i've heard anything positive about was squirrelmail, but it's not even in the repos | 21:17 |
| rustyaxe | I've had mailcow just randomly become an open relay after upgrades; perhaps they've improved their configuration generating scripts, but that's still left a nasty taste in my mouth | 21:17 |
| rustyaxe | Depending on where your IP is (say in a residential ISP block), you may well never be able to actually send mail to anyone | 21:18 |
| rustyaxe | The blacklists are strong and it takes a good long time of sending mail that gets manually flagged as Not Spam to get enough ip reputation to send mail to gmail/hotmail/etc. | 21:19 |
| gnarface | ...meanwhile they happily provide open relays for spammers and play dumb about it | 21:20 |
| gnarface | not being able to send from residential IP blocks due to commercial grade blacklisting isn't as common as you'd think though | 21:20 |
| gnarface | usually the issue is the ISP is blocking port 25 in both directions without telling you | 21:20 |
| rwp | Other than RoundMail the only other newer webmail I have heard of is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mailpile but I am not using it myself so don't know much about it. | 21:21 |
| avbox24 | rustyaxe: Thank you for your input, I was not aware that there a plugins. And I have to say looking for them is just a search field (a bit difficult to pick up the right one). In specially I'm looking for a calendar, there are many of them, but which one to choose? | 21:21 |
| rustyaxe | https://plugins.roundcube.net/ | 21:22 |
| rwp | If you are looking for general "groupware" applications then Nextcloud is probably the thing you are looking for which would include a lot of those types of things. | 21:22 |
| avbox24 | gnarface: Squirrelmail is wat I used but looks that there is no development. | 21:22 |
| rustyaxe | should be a browse option | 21:22 |
| rustyaxe | thankfully i dont have to deal with webmail or clueless users these days; if they cant figure out outlook or thunderbird, no mail for these users | 21:23 |
| rwp | Squirrelmail is the original classic webmail but it fell out of support for a while and most of the community moved to RoundCube. But I see that Squirrelmail did make releases updating for PHP 8 a couple of years ago so that's something. | 21:23 |
| avbox24 | rustyaxe: The problem with the IP block and spam reputation, yes I see the point. So you would say it is better to use a mail provider then to operate your own mail server? | 21:23 |
| rwp | If you want to run your own email then I think you should. But if you have to ask if you should run your own email server then I think you are not ready to run it yourself yet. | 21:24 |
| rustyaxe | Probably a lot less headaches. Just keep in mind hosting mail isnt as as simple as throw up smtpd/imapd and set an MX record and walk away these days. You'll have to setup SPF, DKIM, etc at the least -- a good place to start is search the IP you have on the various mail blacklists | 21:25 |
| rwp | It's somewhat like a skier who is looking down a double-black-diamond mogul ski run and asking their buddy next to them. Should I go down this expert only ski run today? If you want to do it then I think you should. But if you are asking if you should then maybe you are not yet ready. | 21:25 |
| rustyaxe | https://mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx | 21:25 |
| gnarface | avbox24: everyone, literally everyone, should absolutely have their own mail server, the issue is that you're asking for a single turnkey solution that does literally everything, which suggests that this is gonna be a lot more work than you're planning for | 21:26 |
| gnarface | i like exim4, but I HAD TO BUY THEIR BOOK AND READ IT | 21:27 |
| rustyaxe | and ignore spamhaus if they try to beg money saying your IP is blacklisted. they're thieves | 21:27 |
| rwp | https://www.tiltedwindmillpress.com/product-category/tech/ Michael W. Lucas has announced that he is close to releasing a new tech book on running your own mail server. It's not out yet. But as you can see he has a history of many other tech books. Perhaps when that is released then we will have a single source of documentation for the entire email topic. | 21:28 |
| gnarface | i liked sendmail before that (and i shudder at the memory now) but i also HAD TO BUY THEIR BOOK AND READ IT | 21:28 |
| * rustyaxe looks at postfix servers chewing on ~1mil emails a week :) | 21:28 | |
| avbox24 | rustyaxe: I think asking for something does not mean that I'm not aware of doing it. I get here very good ideas how to do it and I think that is very useful. One could say that there are other IRC channels for it, but I really want to do it under devuan so I think I'm at the right place here. | 21:28 |
| gnarface | actually the sendmail book was the O'Reilly one | 21:28 |
| rwp | I had to buy the Sendmail book in order to know how to run Sendmail. I am now running Postfix and the online documentation, plus a little community help, is more than sufficient. | 21:29 |
| rustyaxe | avbox24: Im just saying there's a lot more to it these days, to actually get your mail deliered, thanks to spammers | 21:29 |
| rustyaxe | Meaning, if you look at old documentations... They'll be missing important things for modern email, just as example | 21:29 |
| gnarface | you don't really need the exim4 book to setup a basic exim4 server, i just needed it because i wanted to extend the rules a bit and know what i was doing while i was at it | 21:29 |
| rwp | Clean DNSBL free IP address in a policy allowed static IP space, Forward-Reverse DNS, SPF, DKIM, DMARC. Those happen first. Then start setting up the MTA of your choice. That's for sending email that will be delivered. If those acronyms don't mean anything to you then you need to learn those in order to have your email delivered. | 21:31 |
| avbox24 | gnarface: You are right, an own mail server is always a good thing. May be more work at start but it gives you more privacy. Switching to bigger mail providers does mean at the end that the bigger force us to use the standards they define. | 21:31 |
| rwp | And then we get to talk about receiving email, which is easy, and blocking spam and abuse, which is somewhat more tricky. | 21:31 |
| gnarface | and the debian exim4 packages make a basic setup easy to do, they just don't do a good job of explaining what the options mean so most people flounder on the first try | 21:31 |
| avbox24 | rustyaxe: You are right, the spam is a big problem so configurations looks now is probably more complex then in earlier days. | 21:33 |
| onefang | "rwp> It's one of those things that the result is composed of an inventory of independent things that all must work together." Which is why I use courier + courier + courier + courier. | 21:34 |
| gnarface | avbox24: that and, actually megacorps are really clumsy, slow, and inefficient things; with a modest amount of sysadmin experience and a decent quality DSL line you can reliably get better uptime and service quality than google or hotmail and the like | 21:34 |
| rwp | Courier has been around longer. Dovecot is the newcomer by comparison. But Dovecot is generally an easier component to set up for an IMAP server. | 21:35 |
| rwp | Oh, in my above list for sending I forgot to list DNSSEC and DANE which are not yet required but will get to being required at some point. | 21:36 |
| gnarface | avbox24: with a dedicated static IP, just register the reverse mapping to match your forward DNS mapping and that will actually clear you for a wide amount of commercial mail servers' spam filtering | 21:36 |
| rwp | Plus for IMAPS one needs publicly validating certificates, which usually means Let's Encrypt, and for that I use Nginx to interface to broker those certificates using dehydrated as an acme client. | 21:37 |
| gnarface | heh, only if you're sharing the server | 21:39 |
| rwp | True. But I do host a small number of other people for their email so that they don't need to give up and use Google for it. So I want them to have a security warning free experience. | 21:39 |
| rwp | Also a lot of people are using rspamd as a local reputation server. So that's also on the inventory list too. | 21:40 |
| avbox24 | gnarface: We have too far too much configuration in nearly all software packages (is my experience over the last years). But it is how the game is running at this time ;-) And yes I see the problems of the big players in my job. I had to do mail archiving for O365, you don't get more then 1 or 2 mails a second. Our customer did already archive | 21:40 |
| avbox24 | about 200'000s with imap, our application did remove them after storing it in our system. What did happen? The customer switched to o365, I had to use python3 stuff the get the mails over o365 and the result was the 200'000 mails were never delete (only in imap it was not viewable). I first thought we can filter out them with the mail we did | 21:40 |
| avbox24 | already archive, but pustekuchen, it was not possible. o365 sends always slightly different mails so it was not possible to filter them out. After accesing 25'000 mails a day o365 blocked us out, the job needed days and days. But the customer still want o365 what after this story I really don't understand, but it is the customers decision. | 21:40 |
| onefang | Yes but the point of me using courier + courier + courier + courier is that it does IMAP, POP, SNMP, it does the lot. So you don't have to mess with "an inventory of independent things that all must work together". | 21:41 |
| rwp | I don't know courier in great detail. Will it renew Let's Encrypt certificates? Will it replace exim/postfix as an MTA? Does it sign outgoing email for DKIM signatures? | 21:42 |
| rwp | onefang, I know you are just afk for the moment but I don't think courier will do those things and therefore one still needs an inventory of components all working together. One needs a static IP address that is clean of DNSBLs. It needs forward-reverse DNS. DNS needs SPF, DKIM, DMARC, configured. An MTA either postfix or exim (postfix is best!), needs a way to broker certificates (nginx). And all of the rest too. Courier and | 21:47 |
| rwp | Dovecot are pretty much an either/or alternative for each other for IMAPS but not for the other things. | 21:47 |
| rwp | Exim (or rspamd) can do DKIM itself internally. Postfix uses the milter plugin interface for those components and I am using OpenDKIM with it here. | 21:48 |
| rustyaxe | same on postfix+opendkim. works well | 21:48 |
| onefang | I use Let's Encrypt with it, and I also use it as an MTA. The only mail thing I don't use it for is actually reading it, I use on old neomutt for that, coz the current neomutt has a habit of marking random emails as deleted. | 21:50 |
| rwp | I am not using POP anywhere. And honestly I was caught off guard with the mention of SNMP from Courier! I am really curious about that use there. I am sure I am missing something useful. | 21:51 |
| onefang | No longer AFK, just woke up. | 21:51 |
| rustyaxe | people used POP after 1999..? | 21:51 |
| onefang | Courier even does faxmail, mailing lists, and webmail. | 21:52 |
| onefang | Oh and PCP, a calendar. Didn't notice that before. lol | 21:52 |
| mason | s/SNMP/SMTP/ | 21:59 |
| djph | rustyaxe: allegedly | 21:59 |
| rwp | mason, That was a missed opportunity to add FTFY on the end of it. :-) | 22:00 |
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