| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +2493 cases (now 955488), +375 deaths (now 54120) since an hour ago — California, US: +783 cases (now 42165), +53 deaths (now 1671) since 5 hours ago — Connecticut, US: +661 cases (now 24582), +98 deaths (now 1862) since a day ago | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Tramtrist | do we have recovered statistics? | 00:09 |
| tinwhiskers | Tramtrist: probably just easier to look here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ | 00:13 |
| Tramtrist | i mean.. Brainstorm has a lot to say about cases and deaths | 00:13 |
| tinwhiskers | !cases italy | 00:14 |
| tinwhiskers | %cases italy | 00:14 |
| Brainstorm | tinwhiskers: In all areas, Italy, there are 195351 cases (0.3% of the population) and 26384 deaths (13.5% of cases) as of 15 minutes ago. 1.6 million tests were performed (11.9% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy for time series data. | 00:14 |
| CovBot | In Italy there have been a total of 195,351 cases as of 2020-04-25 21:32:00 UTC. Of these 105,847 (54.2%) are still sick or may have recovered without being recorded, 63,120 (32.3%) have definitely recovered and 26,384 (13.5%) have died. | 00:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 21:57 UTC: Coronavirus live news: global death toll passes 200,000: Greece prepares to end lockdown; Bill Gates vows to fund vaccine production; Australia and New Zealand mark Anzac Day from driveways → https://is.gd/l1n5s2 | 00:14 |
| pwr22 | <Tramtrist "do we have recovered statistics?"> In general they aren't very accurate | 00:21 |
| tinwhiskers | pwr22++ | 00:26 |
| tinwhiskers | even worse than the confirmeds and deaths! | 00:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 22:14 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus US live: Cuomo calls quarantining this generation's challenge – as it happened → https://is.gd/w1kAAn | 00:28 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Coronavirus has killed nearly 52,000 people in the US, over a quarter of the world's deaths (10029 votes) | https://redd.it/g7sp5g | 00:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 22:31 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: rescue flight from Argentina returns stranded travellers as death toll reaches 81 – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 00:43 |
| LjL | Tramtrist, i actually removed recoveries from its output | 00:46 |
| LjL | because... for so many countries, they make no sense | 00:46 |
| LjL | i mean cases and deaths are already arguable | 00:46 |
| LjL | but recoveries just seem completely random | 00:47 |
| Tramtrist | k | 00:48 |
| Tramtrist | %cases kentucky | 00:54 |
| Brainstorm | Tramtrist: In Kentucky, US, there are 3905 cases (0.1% of the population) and 205 deaths (5.2% of cases) as of 5 minutes ago. 44962 tests were performed (8.7% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Kentucky for time series data. | 00:54 |
| Tramtrist | 1% of the population tested | 00:56 |
| Tramtrist | great | 00:56 |
| Tramtrist | going to be another long month | 00:56 |
| Tramtrist | if the governor follows the guidance.. and they JUST started to open up testing for whoever wants it.. the numbers should spike from now? which means its going to be a long while til the @home is lifted | 00:57 |
| Tramtrist | oh well | 00:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 23:10 UTC: CoronaVirusInfo: Corona virus in UK. Why is there a blank in UK recovered patients section. → https://is.gd/RRGaV6 | 01:11 |
| LjL | yeah well | 01:13 |
| LjL | %active kentucky | 01:13 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In Kentucky, US, there are 3905 active cases, while 0 have recovered, for a theoretical CFR of 0.995145631068 as of 11 minutes ago. 44962 tests were performed (8.7% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Kentucky for time series data. | 01:13 |
| LjL | Tramtrist, here you go, but not very useful for kentucky | 01:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 23:23 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: rescue flight from Argentina returns stranded travellers as death toll reaches 81 – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 01:32 |
| Tramtrist | thanks LjL | 01:35 |
| Tramtrist | and ya 0 is not true ;p | 01:35 |
| MetaNova | %activity georgia | 01:44 |
| MetaNova | %active georgia | 01:44 |
| Brainstorm | MetaNova: In all areas, Georgia, there are 317 active cases, while 139 have recovered, for a theoretical case fatality rate of 3.4% as of 11 minutes ago. 9699 tests were performed (4.7% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Georgia for time series data. | 01:44 |
| MetaNova | %active georgia, us | 01:44 |
| Brainstorm | MetaNova: Sorry, georgia, us not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 01:44 |
| LjL | not sure if i'll ever solve the georgia issue -.- | 01:46 |
| LjL | %active georgia (us) | 01:46 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Sorry, georgia (us) not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name. | 01:46 |
| LjL | i need to special case this, since it's technically now Georgia (US);US | 01:47 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +2017 cases (now 957505) since an hour ago — Colorado, US: +712 cases (now 12968) since a day ago — Georgia (US), US: +521 cases (now 23216) since 7 hours ago | 01:51 |
| tinwhiskers | yes, well, that's entirely my fault. | 01:52 |
| tinwhiskers | poor design. Been meaning to fix it so I don't have to disambiguate the names that clash but... too lazy | 01:53 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, well also it's a bit of a mess now as i've gone back to using unconfirmed.csv as well as the covidly one because covidly covers a lot but it only updates everything on a daily basis (also some of their graphs end up looking terrible :\) | 01:56 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. I see. | 01:57 |
| LjL | i basically download both and merge them, giving unconfirmed.csv precedence, and handling the name mismatch by just having a short list of synonyms that doesn't come anywhere close to covering everything, but covers italy and... well, mostly italy | 01:58 |
| tinwhiskers | good call | 01:59 |
| linext | what are the chances that covid-19 could return again from animals? | 02:02 |
| friedbat | it won't matter, it'll return from humans | 02:04 |
| linext | friedbat, how long can covid-19 survive in a dish? | 02:05 |
| friedbat | as for the amount of animal-human future transmission, that depends on human behavior. china ends up being the source of many of these zoonotic diseases (bird flu, swine flu, sars1, sars2) because they have unsanitary live animal markets | 02:05 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Detroit health care worker dies after being denied coronavirus test 4 times, daughter says (10201 votes) | https://redd.it/g7vhgn | 02:06 |
| friedbat | linext: there are estimates between hours and days for non-porous surfaces. less if exposed to sunlight. | 02:06 |
| linext | i mean, if someone wanted to keep it as a pet | 02:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +2080 cases (now 959585), +87 deaths (now 54247) since 23 minutes ago — Pennsylvania, US: +1548 cases (now 41697), +68 deaths (now 1804) since a day ago — Texas, US: +422 cases (now 24195) since 6 hours ago | 02:06 |
| friedbat | though now there is also reason to believe sars2 wasn't due to unsanitary live animal markets but possibly an insecure biolab facility that among other things studies bat betacoronaviruses | 02:07 |
| LjL | linext, it's not a living creature so i'm not sure it technically counts as a pet even if you manage to keep it around | 02:11 |
| LjL | friedbat, what do you mean by "now"? that theory has been around for, like... a while | 02:11 |
| LjL | is there new evidence? | 02:11 |
| linext | LjL, what does it need to survive? | 02:12 |
| linext | does it survive? | 02:13 |
| friedbat | LjL: i believe there is now higher probability being given to that theory by intel agencies. i presume that's based on spies that western intel has in china. | 02:13 |
| LjL | linext, surviving implies it's alive. but the closest thing is remaining viable, i guess. one thing that tends to help with that is cold temperature, and apparently, dryness | 02:13 |
| tinwhiskers | linext: viruses tend to stay predominantly within a species then occasionally cross to another species. In just the same way the virus crossed from bats to humans the virus *could* cross from humans to another animal, such as a dog, then later re-emerge in humans after cycling in dogs for a while. anything is possible, but it's very unlikely. Far more likely is that another different virus will emerge in humans from yet another wildlife | 02:14 |
| tinwhiskers | source. | 02:14 |
| friedbat | but yes, the theory has been around a while...it just seems like some governments are now more confident in that theory | 02:14 |
| LjL | friedbat, i found it plausible, if nothing else compared to the various conspiracy theories. assume stupidity over malice. also, initially there was a lot of talk about the level 4 lab that's not even anywhere near the seafood market... while THAT lab is not level 4, works with bats, and is next to the market. between the two labs, i know which i'd bet on | 02:15 |
| friedbat | there is a level 4 lab near the market (i think it's 25km away) | 02:17 |
| LjL | yeah i guess that counts as "near" if you live in the US or... China | 02:17 |
| friedbat | but you don't need proximity to the market if your patient zero is a lab worker and the market was just a way to distract from the lab | 02:17 |
| LjL | but i meant "near" as in 500m | 02:17 |
| friedbat | oh right, not near as in 500m :) | 02:18 |
| friedbat | i'd call that "next to" | 02:18 |
| LjL | well, the one that worked with the bats was "next to" then | 02:18 |
| LjL | was/is | 02:18 |
| friedbat | what lab is that? | 02:18 |
| friedbat | i'm only familiar with the wuhan institute of virology, bio-level 4, works on β coronaviruses | 02:19 |
| linext | would covid-19 survive if it got fresh blood? | 02:21 |
| tinwhiskers | not for long | 02:21 |
| linext | it's kind of a strange existence being a virus | 02:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus* at 00:08 UTC: Coronavirus: EU report on Chinese, Russian coronavirus disinformation watered down after pressure from Beijing: reports → https://is.gd/lRZZ7x | 02:22 |
| tinwhiskers | you need cells to be actively growing and multiplying for a virus to survive long term. You can culture them as long as you like but they won't persist or multiply without an environment like a living body. | 02:23 |
| friedbat | Why would the EU water down its report due to pressure? | 02:23 |
| friedbat | that says a lot about the leverage China and Russia have. Russia presumably due to natural gas, and China, well, due to everything. | 02:24 |
| friedbat | It's pretty bad that Western countries are finding they can't be 100% honest in their reporting on Chinese and Russian activities. | 02:25 |
| tinwhiskers | I think there's some news hype there somehow | 02:25 |
| friedbat | wasn't there some german paper, the biggest one, that reported about how chinese diplomats pressured the crap out of them? | 02:26 |
| friedbat | but they didn't accept and they reported things anyways? | 02:26 |
| tinwhiskers | well everyone advocates for themselves. I don't see why the chinese wouldn't | 02:27 |
| friedbat | i understand if you're in china. you can't. because you'll disappear and your entire family will be sent to a gulag and never heard from again. but western governments and reporters shouldn't allow themselves to be bullied. imho. | 02:27 |
| LjL | friedbat, i give up trying to get Google Maps to show it, instead it shows me a "center for oral diseases". anyway, https://chanworld.org/wp-content/uploads/wpforo/default_attachments/1581810860-447056518-Originsof2019-NCoV-XiaoB-Res.pdf and see where it mentions the "Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention" | 02:27 |
| tinwhiskers | more likely the EU report used some wording that the chinese said was wrong or inappropriate and they requested it be changed, then the news media spun that as giving in to pressure | 02:27 |
| tinwhiskers | maybe there were threats involved, maybe not. do we know that? | 02:29 |
| LjL | friedbat, i made it! https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Wuhan+South+China+Seafood+Wholesale+Market,+Jianghan+Qu,+Wuhan+Shi,+Hubei+Sheng,+China/Wuhan+Centres+for+Disease+Prevention+%26+Control,+24+Jianghan+N+Rd,+Jiang'an+District,+Wuhan,+Hubei,+China/@30.602831,114.2550801,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x342ea94ab99e2bfd:0x5ba9b4b6604c943d!2m2!1d114.2616875!2d30.6177919!1m5!1m1!1s0x342eaee6df67e08b:0x9cbacadc65f81283!2m2!1d114.279647!2d30.589446!3e2 | 02:29 |
| LjL | wait no that's still 5km | 02:29 |
| LjL | well, closest i could get and i had to figure out the chinese name for it | 02:30 |
| friedbat | LjL: that PDF shows this as that CDC: https://www.google.com/maps/place/30%C2%B036'51.5%22N+114%C2%B015'42.0%22E | 02:33 |
| LjL | friedbat, but it's unnamed on the map (now?) | 02:34 |
| LjL | i think i went through this with someone before, and actually found it last time | 02:34 |
| LjL | but then i don't appear to remember who that was | 02:34 |
| LjL | which would help | 02:34 |
| friedbat | i wonder if this was removed at request | 02:35 |
| friedbat | if you click the building in google maps and save the location in a link it does add the name as metadata in the url | 02:35 |
| friedbat | that would be quite a story, if china made google remove that label. | 02:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 00:23 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: rescue flight from Argentina returns stranded travellers as death toll reaches 81 – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 02:37 |
| LjL | friedbat, what's the label? it looks like i can't use computers | 02:40 |
| LjL | friedbat, the actual smaller building that the virtual ruler in the paper points to is just marked as a shop | 02:41 |
| LjL | %tr 新世纪家电收售调剂站 | 02:41 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Chinese to English: New Century Home Appliances Collection and Disposal Station (MyMemory, Google) | 02:41 |
| friedbat | LjL: https://map.baidu.com/poi/%E5%A4%A7%E6%AD%A6%E6%B1%891911%E5%95%86%E4%B8%9A%E5%9C%88-F%E6%A0%8B/@12720442.178982722,3561614.9965534327,19.05z | 02:51 |
| friedbat | this has labels, but i don't read chinese | 02:51 |
| LjL | %tr 武汉市疾病预防控制中心 | 02:51 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Chinese to English: Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention (MyMemory, Google) | 02:51 |
| LjL | %tr 湖北省武汉市江汉区马场路288号 | 02:51 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Chinese to English: No. 288 Machang Road, Jianghan District, Wuhan City, Hubei Province (MyMemory, Google) | 02:52 |
| LjL | friedbat, that *address* is close to the seafood market, and it does say it's the CDC. but the if i search for 武汉市疾病预防控制中心 on google maps i just get other CDC locations that are further away | 02:53 |
| friedbat | in baidu you can do street view with pictures | 02:55 |
| friedbat | the buildings look like office buildings, tall | 02:55 |
| friedbat | it could be a lab i guess but it looks more like a building filled with offices | 02:55 |
| LjL | friedbat, there a NUMBER of Wuhan locations that belong to the Chinese CDC. so if that "paper" had wanted to just pick the closest one possible to the Seafood Market while the lab is actually at a different location, well, it could have done that | 02:57 |
| LjL | funny that among this NUMBER of locations, which show up on google, including the matching phone number +86 27 8580 5111, that one is missing | 02:57 |
| friedbat | that's true, they probably have multiple locations. not all of them labs. some might be just business offices or some other stuff. | 02:57 |
| friedbat | changing topics just a bit. so there's talk that kim jong-un is in a coma after a botched heart operation and other rumors he is very ill or dead due to coronavirus. | 02:58 |
| friedbat | but kim jong-un was also a reformer of sorts, what if he was killed by hard-line generals that don't want peace with south korea, and other changes. | 02:59 |
| ubLXI | -vox | 02:59 |
| friedbat | has anyone discussed that possibility? | 03:00 |
| ubLXI | maybe in -vox | 03:00 |
| tinwhiskers | so far we only have speculation and gossip | 03:00 |
| friedbat | and the only thing we know for sure is he's not been seen in public since the 11th, right? | 03:00 |
| tinwhiskers | for moderate values of "sure", it's something like that date, yeah | 03:01 |
| LjL | i know other things for moderate values of "sure" | 03:01 |
| friedbat | maybe north korea is suffering an incredible epidemic. maybe they're ravaged by covid and they took kim jong un to some bunker somewhere to wait it out | 03:03 |
| tinwhiskers | there's a run on supermarkets according to "solid" sources. people are getting spooked either by that situation or impending tighter lockdown rules. | 03:03 |
| LjL | that there is an epidemic in North Korea seems far from unlikely, despite isolation | 03:03 |
| friedbat | tinwhiskers: where? | 03:03 |
| tinwhiskers | friedbat: NK | 03:03 |
| LjL | whether that has anything to do with the "disappearance" of Kim, we'll know in time. or we won't. | 03:03 |
| tinwhiskers | right | 03:03 |
| friedbat | they might have decided for his own good, to send him to some remote place to wait it out | 03:04 |
| friedbat | or he might be dead as a doornail by now, who knows. | 03:04 |
| tinwhiskers | we can speculate a lot of things... | 03:04 |
| LjL | honestly, right now i case this · much | 03:04 |
| LjL | care, also | 03:04 |
| LunarJetman | what does [m] mean? | 03:07 |
| friedbat | matrix | 03:07 |
| LunarJetman | eh? | 03:08 |
| friedbat | it's a provider of accounts that people use to irc. matrix.org | 03:08 |
| tinwhiskers | LunarJetman: this irc channel is bridged to a matrix channel | 03:09 |
| friedbat | if you check their whois, you'll see all those [m] accounts are joining irc via a matrix.org gateway. matrix adds the [m] to the nick. | 03:09 |
| tinwhiskers | err, matrix "room" rather | 03:09 |
| LunarJetman | I see. I will have to add matrix support to my irc client | 03:12 |
| tinwhiskers | the whole point is that you don't need to add matrix support because the bridge is doing that | 03:13 |
| LjL | also it would not be an IRC client but a Matrix client then | 03:13 |
| tinwhiskers | It would be interesting to get some more info out of North Korea by way of the few expats that remain there, just to know what's happening with regards to covid-19. It's kinda strange it's so dead. | 03:13 |
| LunarJetman | you misunderstand me. I want to make my irc client also a matrix client | 03:14 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, many people in NK communicate with the rest of the world by connecting to Chinese phone towers | 03:14 |
| LjL | that may hinder things at times, maybe | 03:14 |
| tinwhiskers | The article I read earlier about supermarket shortages said the info came via an expat. I thought I'd heard they had mostly been sent away, but that suggests some remain at least. | 03:14 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: ah | 03:14 |
| LunarJetman | the next version of my IRC client will be protocol agnostic so matrix sounds like something cool to support. | 03:18 |
| tinwhiskers | LunarJetman: what's the client? | 03:18 |
| LunarJetman | ClicksAndWhistles | 03:18 |
| LunarJetman | Lockdown might last until next year :( | 03:20 |
| LunarJetman | or longer | 03:20 |
| friedbat | isn't scarcity (food and otherwise) a way of life in north korea? | 03:20 |
| tinwhiskers | nah, at least not as it is now | 03:20 |
| friedbat | for them to say that now things are bare due to covid must mean they're almost empty | 03:20 |
| tinwhiskers | friedbat: err, yes, for many | 03:20 |
| tinwhiskers | I think there are more affluent areas where expats (used) to live that were not so bad | 03:21 |
| friedbat | iran must be another place where things are probably horrendous for the regular people | 03:23 |
| tinwhiskers | NK: “As of 2 April, 709 people - 11 foreigners and 698 nationals - have been tested for COVID-19. There is no report of a COVID-19 case. There are 509 people in quarantine – two foreigners and 507 nationals,” Dr. Edwin Salvador, the WHO Representative to the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK), said in an email reply. “Since 31 December, 24,842 people have been released from quarantine, which includes 380 foreigners, | 03:24 |
| tinwhiskers | ” he said. | 03:24 |
| tinwhiskers | Of course we take "no report" to mean just that. | 03:24 |
| LunarJetman | is this channel USA-centric? | 03:25 |
| tinwhiskers | LunarJetman: no | 03:25 |
| LunarJetman | good. | 03:25 |
| euod[m] | depends how many americans are talking. | 03:25 |
| LunarJetman | just ban Trump from joining, OK? :D | 03:26 |
| euod[m] | why? he might learn something if he listens to anything other than fox news. | 03:26 |
| tinwhiskers | Well we don't ban anyone from joining, but complete idiots usually get shown the door fairly quickly so you're safe there. | 03:27 |
| friedbat | tinwhiskers: i suspect n korea has tons of cases | 03:27 |
| friedbat | border with both china and s. korea. no way did they not get it. | 03:27 |
| berndj | how porous is that border? | 03:27 |
| LunarJetman | apparently Kim Jong Un is in a vegetative state. | 03:27 |
| friedbat | with china it's open to trade | 03:28 |
| LunarJetman | so his sister is going to take over | 03:28 |
| friedbat | with south korea, i don't know | 03:28 |
| berndj | ah, so trucks and stuff crossing to/from china? | 03:28 |
| friedbat | yeah | 03:28 |
| tinwhiskers | friedbat: vietnam, who also shares a border remained under control for a very long time | 03:28 |
| euod[m] | berndj: and russia. | 03:28 |
| euod[m] | it's a popular holiday destination, kind of. | 03:29 |
| tinwhiskers | border control with N Korea is strict. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based on them sharing a border. But I do agree it's unlikely there were no cases, so you have to wonder how that is now. | 03:29 |
| friedbat | oh right, it's got that small border with russia | 03:29 |
| berndj | oh, i didn't realize they had a border with russia. but only a short stretch | 03:29 |
| berndj | euod[m], what is a popular destination? NK for russians, or russia for north koreans? | 03:30 |
| euod[m] | it's only short, but there's trains that go across. I wasn't joking about NK being a tourist destination. | 03:30 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm guessing various consulates still have a presence in NK, so if it was absolute pandemonium we'd know. | 03:30 |
| euod[m] | berndj: North Korea. there's lots of strange things like that. | 03:30 |
| berndj | oh, right near vladivostok too | 03:31 |
| tinwhiskers | also, there seems to be some expats still there and the small amount of news coming from them is about much more mundane topics. | 03:31 |
| LjL | LunarJetman, i think it's more accurate to say that we have no clue what state Kim is actually in, and that at best we know his sister is influential | 03:31 |
| euod[m] | LjL: we know something happened because he hasn't been seen for a while. but beyond that there's no useful information other than his obvious poor health. | 03:31 |
| euod[m] | LjL: he looks in poor health standing next to trump, which is saying something. | 03:32 |
| berndj | gee, i didn't realize seoul was so close to the border | 03:32 |
| LjL | it sure is | 03:32 |
| friedbat | Trump looks to be in amazing health to me. Plus I don't know many 73 year old people who can keep up the pace he does. | 03:32 |
| friedbat | i hope i'm that energetic when i turn 73 | 03:33 |
| euod[m] | hope that's sarcastic. | 03:33 |
| berndj | i don't really feel like trump looks so unhealthy for his age? sure he's overweight but nothing extraordinary. besides the orange and extra weird hair he looks like any random old codger at an amateur radio meet | 03:33 |
| friedbat | yeah, seoul is very close to the border. that's why they're scared about war breaking out. | 03:33 |
| friedbat | s. korea would suffer a lot of casualties | 03:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 01:26 UTC: (news): Global coronavirus deaths cross 200,000, US beaches reopen, NY expands testing → https://is.gd/fxCyay | 03:33 |
| berndj | this looks like just 20km, you could wak to the border from downtown seoul! | 03:34 |
| friedbat | seouls is about 55km or so from the dmz | 03:34 |
| berndj | friedbat, i want to know how many virgins fauci sacrificed to look 55 at age 79 | 03:34 |
| friedbat | fauci also looks good for his age | 03:34 |
| berndj | oh yeah, i'm not eyeballing this right. let me use the 'measure distance' tool then | 03:35 |
| berndj | 40km as the crow flies | 03:35 |
| euod[m] | berndj: trump is obese (by the medical definition), and has severe failures in basic metal function (by observation). | 03:36 |
| friedbat | that's probably the shortest distance, like to that kink in the river | 03:36 |
| berndj | le sigh | 03:36 |
| berndj | friedbat, yes, that's what i'm looking at. northwest | 03:37 |
| friedbat | but basically, yes, they're very close | 03:37 |
| friedbat | near gimpo? | 03:37 |
| berndj | walkable, but only if you're desperate | 03:38 |
| berndj | i don't see anything labeled 'gimpo' here | 03:38 |
| euod[m] | or just take one of the tunnels. | 03:38 |
| euod[m] | there's lots of tunnels that go under the DMZ. | 03:39 |
| friedbat | gimpo is that peninsual on the south korea side that juts into that part of the river where the closest dmz line is | 03:39 |
| friedbat | peninsula | 03:39 |
| friedbat | but you're probably looking right off seongdon-ri | 03:40 |
| euod[m] | "From 1953 until 2004, both sides broadcast audio propaganda across the DMZ" | 03:40 |
| LjL | yes that must have been a lot of fun for people living near the border | 03:41 |
| berndj | oh there's gimpo. yeah, in that direction. i can't type all the labels i see here | 03:41 |
| siedkona | friedbat: berndj: can you two explain to me why it is you find it so disagreeable to see trump described in a negative light, and why you agitate for reduction of negative expressions, but are blithely happy to frame trump in a positive light? | 03:41 |
| berndj | siedkona, because it's just deranged | 03:41 |
| siedkona | berndj: framing trump in a positive light is not deranged? | 03:42 |
| berndj | why don't you start by explaining why you have to inject anti-trump rhetoric in every last venue in the world? | 03:42 |
| friedbat | siedkona: i don't find it disagreeable per se. i just find the non-stop trump bashing boring. | 03:42 |
| friedbat | as for framing him in a positive light? i just said he seems energetic for 73 | 03:43 |
| friedbat | i also said that about fauci | 03:43 |
| siedkona | i find your non-stop positive framing of trump disagreeable | 03:43 |
| ytlyv9 | https://i.imgur.com/xTCg9Cn.jpg | 03:43 |
| berndj | i'm not framing him in a positive light, but i guess to a TDS sufferer anything but "omg orange man bad" equals "framing him in a positive light" | 03:43 |
| tinwhiskers | so, I was trying to keep the NK thing somewhat related to covid, being topical here and all, but for political stuff ##coronavirus-vox would be preferable. | 03:44 |
| friedbat | i guess so. if you're not saying "orange man bad" then it's a positive light. | 03:44 |
| berndj | like i wouldn't even be saying anything if he weren't being dragged kicking and screaming into EVERY conversation | 03:44 |
| friedbat | the one thing NK has going for it, is that it's basically a vassal state of china's. | 03:45 |
| friedbat | so they'll get assistance, medical and otherwise from them | 03:45 |
| friedbat | but i am sure they're still suffering greatly. the people are. very sad. | 03:45 |
| tinwhiskers | mmm | 03:46 |
| berndj | did those SK/NK "tourist borders" shut down long ago? | 03:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 01:44 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: Queensland to relax some restrictions from Friday – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 03:48 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Chicago nurse told friend she was ‘scared to death.’ Within weeks, she and her son were dead from COVID-19, and her husband barely survived. (10464 votes) | https://redd.it/g80ef5 | 03:48 |
| siedkona | not buying it | 03:48 |
| tinwhiskers | berndj: apparently since Jan 22 | 03:48 |
| siedkona | i believe in this channel we do shut down floridly worthless anti-trump hysteria, but do allow a degree of criticism where it is obviously merited | 03:51 |
| tinwhiskers | no, take that elsewhere | 03:51 |
| siedkona | the invocation of "orange man bad" in that context, in any context, frankly, is a phrase and a standard of discourse i never want to see again | 03:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 01:49 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Singapore reports 618 new cases, Boris Johnson to return to work Monday → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 03:55 |
| xrogaan | he literally told people to drink bleach. | 03:56 |
| LjL | no he "literally" didn't | 03:57 |
| LjL | also now let's move the fuck on | 03:57 |
| LunarJetman | no, he "literally" told people to INJECT DISINFECTANT which is just as bad as drinking bleach. | 04:05 |
| LjL | i did mean it | 04:06 |
| MjrTom | I thought everybody is supposed to huff and boof bleach?!? | 04:07 |
| MjrTom | (don't do that,) | 04:09 |
| python47` | LunarJetman: I really don't understand how can a country tolerate an idiot like this as a president | 04:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 01:53 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: Queensland to relax some restrictions from Friday – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 04:09 |
| LjL | oh for fuck sake | 04:09 |
| LjL | whoever you are, any direct or indirect mention of trump in a positive, negative, neutral light, or even in darkness, gets you quieted, for the next... well until i go to sleep | 04:12 |
| _io_ | what a fun rule. | 04:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 02:48 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Singapore reports 618 new cases, Argentina extends lockdown → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 04:52 |
| _io_ | https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001369135/20-promising-drugs-and-vaccines-in-the-fight-against-covid-19 | 05:02 |
| LjL | that's a long list | 05:03 |
| LjL | too bad to consider when it starts with remdesivir it's probably because they think it's the most promising one ;( | 05:04 |
| LjL | and i mean, that's a somewhat low bar at this point | 05:04 |
| _io_ | i figured this would happen. theyre just throwing anything at it and seeing what sticks at this point. it is an act of desperation. | 05:05 |
| LjL | sigh, kinda. well there are drugs in development that are *new* drug, not repurposed | 05:05 |
| LjL | maybe those will have better effects but also take much longer to be available | 05:05 |
| _io_ | much | 05:06 |
| LjL | nice... i see https://np.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g81s8t/in_france_amazon_loses_court_appeal_and_must_stop/ headline looks potentially interesting, obviously EU-related, can't read the article because the paper doesn't like the GDPR | 05:11 |
| LjL | paper or TV rather i think | 05:11 |
| LjL | anyway, it's more about, someone posts something about France that people in France can't read, and nobody even notes that :\ | 05:11 |
| LjL | https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/25/21235964/amazon-restricted-france-coronavirus works better | 05:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 03:19 UTC: /u/slakmehl: US deaths once again >2000, but there continues to be good news on the testing capacity front as daily tests continue to surge. → https://is.gd/QiA79L | 05:27 |
| Aoi | hello | 05:32 |
| Aoi | Is here anyone who want to chat for a while in the subject of coronavirus on priv? | 05:35 |
| tinwhiskers | Aoi: just in case you're not aware there is ##coronavirus-vox for general chat about coronavirus, but otherwise, what's on your mind? | 05:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 03:29 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: Queensland to relax some restrictions from Friday – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 05:41 |
| Aoi | Oh, excuse me then. I wonder how situation looks all over the world. I am from Poland and here it looks little weird from point of view of many people. Sometimes I think about many aspects of this epidemic, but I do not want to offend someone, who for example lost someone because of this horrible virus. | 05:46 |
| Aoi | To be honest restrictions sometimes looks ridiculously. | 05:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews at 03:31 UTC: worldnews: Amid Challenges to His Authority, Xi Appeals for Loyalty — Chinese leader Xi Jinping, whose authority has been badly dented due to his regime’s mishandling of the coronavirus outbreak, has urged Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials to remain loyal to his leadership. → https://is.gd/r6BJII | 05:49 |
| Aoi | I mean in Poland for example one restriction is ruined by many other permits etc. | 05:52 |
| LjL | sometimes when you have to go to great lengths to explain that you don't mean to offend, you may need to rethink whether what you intend to say is offensive | 05:52 |
| LjL | well, ineffective restrictions are, indeed, ineffective | 05:52 |
| LjL | Wuhan's restrictions were very harsh, but also seemingly very effective | 05:53 |
| Aoi | It's weird in my opinion and I wonder how it looks from your poin of view? I mean real people from other countries. | 05:54 |
| LjL | it looks like too many people are dying | 05:54 |
| LjL | and i believe i am real | 05:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 03:41 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: Queensland to relax some restrictions from Friday – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 05:56 |
| Aoi | I wish you all the best LjL as well as to all of you. However I'm little skeptical about many things related to covid19 and because of this my questions could be impolite, so I will keep them for myself like you wrote. To be clear. It comes for many aspects of previous generations of coronavirus and this new one. | 06:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 04:40 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Singapore reports 618 new cases, Argentina extends lockdown → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 06:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 05:10 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: WA and Queensland to relax restrictions as federal government launches contact tracing app – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 07:14 |
| Quarantin3d | Hello | 07:15 |
| Quarantin3d | Anyone there? | 07:16 |
| friedbat | Sort of here :) | 07:32 |
| friedbat | been reading a lot so i'm a bit cross-eyed and tired. what are you up to Quarantin3d? | 07:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 05:26 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: government launches Covidsafe contact tracing app as WA and Queensland to relax curbs – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 07:35 |
| Quarantin3d | what do people do here | 07:42 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Fauci calls for at least doubling virus testing before reopening country (10100 votes) | https://redd.it/g82c8x | 07:55 |
| ytlyv9 | https://www.world-stat.info | 08:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 06:13 UTC: nCoV: Covid Toes among kids: New symptom of novel Coronavirus infection → https://is.gd/HWNmaG | 08:18 |
| Butterfly^ | https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/detroit-health-care-worker-dies-after-being-denied-coronavirus-test-n1192076 Detroit health care worker dies after being denied coronavirus test 4 times, daughter says | 08:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 06:23 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: government launches Covidsafe contact tracing app as WA and Queensland to relax curbs – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 08:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 06:32 UTC: nCoV: Donald Trump says coronavirus briefings not worth his time after disinfectant gaffe → https://is.gd/wixv3s | 08:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 06:39 UTC: nCoV: In four U.S. state prisons, nearly 3,300 inmates test positive for coronavirus - 96% without symptoms → https://is.gd/k4INZ6 | 08:46 |
| ap4lmtree | have any of you had covid-19? | 09:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 06:54 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: government launches Covidsafe contact tracing app as WA and Queensland to relax curbs – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 09:07 |
| bildramer | I have had ligma | 09:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 07:07 UTC: CoronaVirus_ITALIA: COVIDSafe: la nuova app di tracciamento in Australia è ora attiva, ma non la registrazione → https://is.gd/vkIK98 | 09:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 07:12 UTC: Australia news: Australia coronavirus update latest: government launches Covidsafe contact tracing app as WA and Queensland to relax curbs – live news → https://is.gd/IVabbl | 09:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 07:28 UTC: CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Ecco Perchè La App Di Tracciamento Immuni Sarà Open Source E Decentralizzata. → https://is.gd/IACqXb | 09:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 07:36 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China says all Wuhan patients have been discharged, Argentina extends lockdown → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 09:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 07:42 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: Boris Johnson says 'public health is the priority': Follow the latest Covid-19 developments in the UK as the government comes under pressure to clarify lockdown exit plans → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 09:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 07:58 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China says all Wuhan patients have been discharged, Argentina extends lockdown → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 10:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 08:08 UTC: CoronaVirus_ITALIA: I FINANZIATORI DELL'ORGANIZZAZIONE MONDIALE DELLA SANITÀ. Cosa succederà senza i fondi degli USA? → https://is.gd/aYALj8 | 10:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 08:13 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: Boris Johnson says 'public health is the priority': Follow the latest Covid-19 developments in the UK as the government comes under pressure to clarify lockdown exit plans → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 10:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 08:32 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Hong Kong → https://is.gd/FVzrlq | 10:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 08:33 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: Boris Johnson says 'public health is the priority': Follow the latest Covid-19 developments in the UK as the government comes under pressure to clarify lockdown exit plans → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 10:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 08:49 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Italia → https://is.gd/NdbELv | 10:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 08:54 UTC: Posso entrare in italia?: Ciao .. Io e la mia ragazza italiana abbiamo studiato insieme in Svezia, e ora è tornata a casa a Roma per stare con la sua famiglia. Ho provato ad entrare in Italia dicendo che vivo con la mia ragazza, ma mi è stato negato. Il nostro appartamento per studenti è scaduto e non ho altra [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/hJ6vwS | 11:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 08:59 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: vaccine 'not likely to come to fruition this year', says Raab: Foreign secretary says speculating on how to ease lockdown is not responsible; government is looking at ordering millions of antibody tests; Boris Johnson to return to work on Monday → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 11:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +6361 cases (now 80949), +66 deaths (now 747) since 23 hours ago — US: +1311 cases (now 960896) since 9 hours ago — Mexico: +970 cases (now 13842), +84 deaths (now 1305) since 23 hours ago | 11:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 09:26 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: USA - California → https://is.gd/C9iuci | 11:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 09:40 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China says all Wuhan patients have been discharged, Russia cases top 80,000 → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 11:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 09:48 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: vaccine 'not likely to come to fruition this year', says Raab: Foreign secretary says speculating on how to ease lockdown is not responsible; government is looking at ordering millions of antibody tests; Boris Johnson to return to work on Monday → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 11:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 10:12 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China says all Wuhan patients have been discharged, Russia cases top 80,000 → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 12:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 10:33 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Fase 2 → https://is.gd/nYJL90 | 12:33 |
| telmich | In case you are looking for a tracing app, please checkout https://twitter.com/NicoSchottelius/status/1254356530503311360 - Capkun is a really smart researcher at ETH Zurich | 12:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 10:37 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Spagna → https://is.gd/UEGF0K | 12:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 10:46 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: vaccine 'not likely to come to fruition this year', says Raab: Foreign secretary says speculating on how to ease lockdown is not responsible; home testing kits for key workers run out within hours for third day; Boris Johnson to return to work on Monday → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 13:02 |
| mefistofeles | telmich: interesting, was about time they released, thanks for sharing. Do you know if there's some whitepaper explaining what it does? | 13:06 |
| mefistofeles | telmich: ah nvm, found it https://github.com/DP-3T/documents/blob/master/DP3T%20White%20Paper.pdf | 13:07 |
| mefistofeles | funny how all of them seem to do the same that BLueTrace app from Singapore does | 13:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 11:29 UTC: nCoV: Zambia reopens Churches despite Covid-19 case rise | 25APR20 → https://is.gd/v4OE7r | 13:30 |
| rmonten[m] | nico &mefistofeles: Whoa thanks for pointing this out and for the link to the paper. Seeing some of the author's names changes my view of how well these apps could preserve privacy. | 13:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 11:32 UTC: nCoV: Perfect detection of 3,683 new coronavirus cases in the last 24 hours | Perú detectó 3.683 nuevos casos de coronavirus en las últimas 24 horas | (TIC) 25APR20 → https://is.gd/GwbjBZ | 13:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 11:37 UTC: nCoV: Lockdown saved as many as 60,000 lives in France, study shows | 24APR20 → https://is.gd/Cm59Mr | 13:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus* at 11:41 UTC: Coronavirus: Canada's top doctor warns against relying on herd immunity to reopen economy | CBC News → https://is.gd/C6x10C | 14:06 |
| yuriwho | IMO we need all countries to agree upon an open source data specification for use by any/all tracking apps so that each country can optimize data collection to a common near-realtime open database standard within the political achievable realities for data collection within each country. ANY TRACKING?CONTACT TRACING BY GPS APP ——> one database standard | 14:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 12:04 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: vaccine 'not likely to come to fruition this year', says Raab: Foreign secretary says speculating on how to ease lockdown is not responsible; home testing kits for key workers run out within hours for third day; Boris Johnson to return to work on Monday → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 14:13 |
| yuriwho | big data can help us, we need to collect it. it can be anonymous at the individual lvl and would be most useful with age, sex, education on COVID, domestic/work situations and pre-existing conditions with added risk data. | 14:14 |
| yuriwho | the central database with enough data to identify the individual should only be hosted by a neutral country with credible data retention/destruction/privacy policies......perhaps Iceland | 14:16 |
| l0ndoner | yuriwho: the app could run on windows CE | 14:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 12:20 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China says all Wuhan patients have been discharged, Russia cases top 80,000 → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 14:27 |
| yuriwho | yes, embedded | 14:27 |
| yuriwho | devices | 14:28 |
| yuriwho | all data collection devices.... internet of things | 14:28 |
| dannixon | Mass data collection is not the answer to contact tracing. | 14:29 |
| l0ndoner | could alexa? | 14:29 |
| yuriwho | dannixon: explain | 14:30 |
| l0ndoner | I'm not sure I want my listening devices to track me too | 14:30 |
| yuriwho | imagine if a 1984 scenario is what saves us while waiting for this global Manhattan Science/Medicine project on steroids and meth to overtake this virus | 14:31 |
| l0ndoner | I'm missing Trumps neews confrences | 14:34 |
| l0ndoner | anyone else | 14:34 |
| dannixon | You don't need to rely on remote central data processing just to tell if two people have been close to each other, there are better (in security, privacy, cost and energy consumption) means of doing this. | 14:35 |
| dannixon | The Google/Apple contact tracing system is a good example. | 14:35 |
| yuriwho | I stopped listening to US media/politics a couple of months ago..... I do look for what Fauci and the other science types are saying | 14:35 |
| ubLXI | an any rate, it would be a Manhattan Project for database engineering and administration; at a glance, facebook has only 2.5 billion users | 14:36 |
| yuriwho | dannixon: many countries do not trust our data-collection overlords (think google/facebook) with the data | 14:36 |
| ubLXI | the layers of political agreement needed before the engineering challenges.. | 14:37 |
| yuriwho | lol | 14:37 |
| dannixon | Google and Apple do not get the data, I suggest you read the white paper first. | 14:37 |
| l0ndoner | ubLXI: goverments couldnt even agree on Facebook bitcoin how on earth they all going to agree Google/Apple ? | 14:38 |
| yuriwho | screw politics..... get the computer scientists and engineers agree, find a safe neutral trusted country to host the master database with copies of distributed anonymized database clones everywhere | 14:38 |
| yuriwho | to agree | 14:38 |
| l0ndoner | this is where the tech underlying bitcoin could come in.... Forget the name of the protocol | 14:39 |
| yuriwho | yes | 14:39 |
| yuriwho | blockchain | 14:39 |
| dannixon | I don't think there is anything for the government to agree to in this case. | 14:39 |
| dannixon | No actual data on the individual is collected or transmitted. | 14:39 |
| dannixon | Please read the paper before jumping to conclusions. | 14:39 |
| ubLXI | convenient link for us, dannixon? | 14:40 |
| yuriwho | I do not have time to read it..... and I have no special expertise in data besides HIPAA for medical records | 14:40 |
| dannixon | https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ContactTracing-BluetoothSpecification.pdf | 14:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 12:36 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Italia - Milano → https://is.gd/Djnywv | 14:41 |
| yuriwho | just my thoughts on the matter as a scientist working on medical interventions | 14:42 |
| l0ndoner | dannixon: why bluetooth. I thought you had to agree and type a code in to pair any devices together or is that just the consumer end to make you feel better | 14:42 |
| mefistofeles | dannixon: yeah, exactly like the BLueTrace one | 14:44 |
| mefistofeles | only that I don't see the code for the Apple/Google one | 14:44 |
| dannixon | <l0ndoner "dannixon: why bluetooth. I thoug"> Because it is in every phone, low power and moderately short range. Pairing is not required to use it as a communication channel. | 14:45 |
| rmonten[m] | dannixon: wouldn't governments need to agree on which protocol to advise/require their citizens to use, even if no personal data is collected? You'd need a sufficient fraction of the population to use the app in order for it to be really effective, no? | 14:47 |
| yuriwho | act responsibly and ask for permission later ;-) | 14:47 |
| dannixon | <mefistofeles "dannixon: yeah, exactly like the"> The advantage here is that it is part of the OS (you only need an app to announce that you are a suspected carrier), as it is "always there" it is in a better standing to be ready for future use. | 14:47 |
| yuriwho | thats my credo | 14:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 12:42 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Medicina → https://is.gd/IyMaFG | 14:49 |
| yuriwho | so separate the GPS info from the medical info? | 14:49 |
| l0ndoner | mate this is sounding more and more like the film demolition man if you aint got a number then you cant eat | 14:50 |
| dannixon | <rmonten[m] "dannixon: wouldn't governments n"> Another advantage of the Google/Apple approach, since it does not handle any personal data it is free to be pushed out on a large scale via the usual update channels. | 14:50 |
| l0ndoner | I'm getting scarred | 14:50 |
| yuriwho | separate the inventorying info from the actionable info to the greatest extent for each country within the structure of the API for the database | 14:51 |
| yuriwho | s/inventorying/identifying | 14:51 |
| yuriwho | f’ing spell check | 14:51 |
| yuriwho | I really need to turn it off for irc | 14:52 |
| bree33 | i knowww | 14:52 |
| bree33 | yo and whoever thought it's a good idea to add a period if you hit space twice wtf | 14:52 |
| rmonten[m] | dannixon: interesting, but then Google/Apple wouldn't be asking for special permission from users beforehand? | 14:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 12:52 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Cina - Wuhan → https://is.gd/08dKdw | 14:56 |
| yuriwho | l0ndoner: you should watch Idiocracy for a better analogy re the tatoo tech | 14:56 |
| dannixon | <rmonten[m] "dannixon: interesting, but then "> This is unclear at this point, it is possible it could work without user intervention but many would advocate for an option to toggle contact tracing. | 14:57 |
| l0ndoner | yuriwho: cool | 14:57 |
| rmonten[m] | dannixon: Well I think you'd get massive backlash if you didn't ad a disable option. Even if you'd have disable as the default, seems like suicide as far as Google/Apple's public image is concerned. They're already facing a lot of suspicion. | 15:00 |
| rmonten[m] | Other than being able to include it in a regular OS update, rather than having users install a separate app, I don't see any benefits over independent apps. | 15:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 13:01 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Intrattenimento → https://is.gd/7Spnn1 | 15:03 |
| rmonten[m] | That's not to say it isn't a great option to have out there | 15:04 |
| ubLXI | rmonten[m]: the linked paper (https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ContactTracing-BluetoothSpecification.pdf) rather seems to show that the (security-minded) need for end-user granular opt-ins would rather limit practical uptake of the service. | 15:05 |
| yuriwho | ok, it’s auto opt in, with opt out available for anyone capable of finding that binary control switch ;-) | 15:06 |
| dannixon | The big issues with opt out and 3rd party apps is that it makes contact tracing possible from the very start of an outbreak. | 15:06 |
| dannixon | Having wide contact tracing coverage early on could be the difference between something being controlled and a pandemic. | 15:06 |
| yuriwho | good point | 15:07 |
| ubLXI | dannixon: what fraction of the global smartphone fleet even has BLE? | 15:07 |
| yuriwho | heck lets just use ‘anonymous’ tracking cookies ;-) | 15:07 |
| l0ndoner | Demolition man where all the people that don't have the OS enabled tracking and tracing app, live underground <shudders> | 15:08 |
| yuriwho | facebook style | 15:08 |
| ubLXI | further note: The 15-minute rolling proximity identifiers in that design will leak location, contra the paper's "unlikely" | 15:08 |
| l0ndoner | what about homeless, the elderly, technophobes | 15:09 |
| yuriwho | darts | 15:09 |
| dannixon | <ubLXI "dannixon: what fraction of the g"> Probably quite a lot, support was introduced in Android 4.3 so that roughly dates when phones started appearing. | 15:09 |
| yuriwho | that inject rfid chips ;-) | 15:09 |
| ubLXI | but the largest limitation in the usefulness of that paper's design seems to me to be the degree of user interaction needed to achieve value | 15:09 |
| yuriwho | Bluetooth chips! | 15:09 |
| l0ndoner | yuriwho: dont give Trump and Homeland security ideas lol | 15:09 |
| dannixon | <l0ndoner "what about homeless, the elderly"> The spec is open you could easily implement small "widgets" that implement the BLE spec but do nothing else. | 15:10 |
| yuriwho | I just want the data | 15:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 13:08 UTC: CoronaVirusInfo: Coronavirus: As hospital anxiety grows amid pandemic, more pregnant moms are opting for home births → https://is.gd/aYGCCm | 15:10 |
| yuriwho | for science/medicine | 15:10 |
| l0ndoner | dannixon: you do relise the implications of what your saying right? | 15:10 |
| yuriwho | and public policy | 15:10 |
| l0ndoner | the UK went mad when the goverment tried bringing in ID cards | 15:11 |
| dannixon | <l0ndoner "dannixon: you do relise the imp"> Please elaborate. | 15:12 |
| yuriwho | afk, coffee on dock watching the mallards court time for me | 15:12 |
| l0ndoner | implanting chips and forcing everyone to divulge there whereabouts at all times | 15:13 |
| l0ndoner | going for some coffee bbiab | 15:13 |
| rmonten[m] | I think it's safe to say that this balance between privacy rights and big data collection as very hard to strike. There are cultural differences between countries and within each country different people have widely diverging priorities. | 15:16 |
| rmonten[m] | Also keep in mind technology isn't the only answer, many countries seem to be setting up cells to do contact tracing "the (painfully slow) oldfashioned way" which they may prefer because you sidestep this question | 15:17 |
| dannixon | <l0ndoner "implanting chips and forcing eve"> So nothing like what I was suggesting? | 15:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test)* at 13:14 UTC: CoronaVirusInfo: Amid Signs Coronavirus Came Earlier, Americans Ask: Did I Already Have It? → https://is.gd/pe8a37 | 15:17 |
| mefistofeles | dannixon: that's exactly why it shouldn't be in the OS, closing the possibility for other OS is ensuring some market share/monopoly... for example, what about Huawei phones? | 15:18 |
| mefistofeles | and many others, but huawei is probably the one with the bigger numbers | 15:18 |
| mefistofeles | dannixon: also, not sure if that Apple/Google thing would be open, do you know about that? | 15:19 |
| dannixon | It is an open specification, anyone can implement. Just because Google and Apple derived it doesn't lock it to only their platforms. | 15:19 |
| mefistofeles | dannixon: ok | 15:20 |
| dannixon | <mefistofeles "dannixon: also, not sure if that"> The Android implementation may end up in AOSP, the Apple implementation probably not. | 15:20 |
| mefistofeles | dannixon: yeah, most likely | 15:20 |
| mefistofeles | my vote is still on the BlueTrace app, not that it matters xD | 15:21 |
| ubLXI | a reasonable skirmish through tech and non-tech issues: https://venturebeat.com/2020/04/17/probeat-apple-google-contact-tracing-tech-fail/ | 15:24 |
| ubLXI | my intuition here is that current phone-based contact tracing is best conceived of as prototyping for the next pandemic | 15:24 |
| mefistofeles | well, I think some of the claims there are weak, but don't really know enough to prove how exactly | 15:26 |
| bn_mobile | Yeah, I always thought the BT thing was a fail from the starr | 15:27 |
| bn_mobile | s/starr/start/ | 15:27 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: why? | 15:27 |
| dannixon | Yes, their long list of steps doesn't accurately represent (proposed) reality. | 15:27 |
| bn_mobile | Because most people keep BT turned off because it's a large battery drain | 15:28 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: well, it s lower compared to alternatives, that's why it's the "better" option | 15:29 |
| mefistofeles | also, there's a specification for Low Energy BT | 15:29 |
| mefistofeles | which is the one that would be used, afaics | 15:29 |
| dannixon | <bn_mobile "Because most people keep BT turn"> True for legacy BT, but this use BLE. | 15:30 |
| mefistofeles | ↑ | 15:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 13:25 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: vaccine 'not likely to come to fruition this year', says Raab: Foreign secretary says speculating on how to ease lockdown is not responsible; home testing kits for key workers run out within hours for third day; Boris Johnson to return to work on Monday → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 15:31 |
| dannixon | That article does at least touch on the fact that this isn't all about COVID-19. | 15:33 |
| bn_mobile | That doesn't mean people can't turn it off though, I rarely use BT so I just leave it off most of the time anyway | 15:39 |
| bn_mobile | I don't even know of my phone supports BT LE | 15:41 |
| bn_mobile | s/of/if/ | 15:41 |
| bn_mobile | I doubt it does even if I upgrade iOS | 15:42 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: Maybe some do not suppor it, but most mobile support that, the specification has been around for years now, maybe even more than a decade. | 15:45 |
| bn_mobile | How accurate is cell tower locating? Can they pinpoint accurately with triangulation? | 15:46 |
| Hullo1 | Hello | 15:46 |
| dannixon | <bn_mobile "How accurate is cell tower locat"> You are back to tracking location rather than tracking contact with that approach. | 15:47 |
| mefistofeles | and location based on that requires tracking from your provider, which raises privacy issues | 15:49 |
| bn_mobile | mefistofeles: I have a 5S, which I think was released in 2013 & it doesn't support it, but I may be an outlier as I use my devices for a long time | 15:51 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: that's ok, I don't even use a mobile phone ;) | 15:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 13:42 UTC: China says all Wuhan coronavirus patients have been discharged, Russia cases top 80,000: China reported 11 new confirmed cases in the country and no additional deaths as of April 25, according to its National Health Commission. → https://is.gd/hsUpjE | 15:52 |
| Hullo1 | mefistofeles, privacy concerns? | 15:52 |
| bn_mobile | dannixon: yeah, I guess it could only record when it detects a user in close vicinity to another but again, how accurate is cell triangulation? | 15:53 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: yes, among other things | 15:53 |
| Hullo1 | I understand. | 15:54 |
| Hullo1 | mefistofeles, cute CTCP reply | 15:54 |
| l0ndoner | so bluetooth spouts out to all and sundrae if you have cov-19 or anything thats listening? | 15:54 |
| ubLXI | one attempt for a globally interoperable foundation protocol for CT apps: https://tcn-coalition.org/ | 15:54 |
| ubLXI | some discussion of it here: https://venturebeat.com/2020/04/13/what-privacy-preserving-coronavirus-tracing-apps-need-to-succeed/ | 15:55 |
| ubLXI | scroll down to "Multinational interoperability" | 15:55 |
| dannixon | <bn_mobile "dannixon: yeah, I guess it could"> Not sure about cell towers alone, but the offline/assisted location (using cell towers and WiFi) offered by Google is scarily good. | 15:55 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: lol | 15:55 |
| l0ndoner | Alexa listens for my phone every second of the day | 15:55 |
| l0ndoner | so Amazon will know my medical records :0 | 15:56 |
| bn_mobile | Everyone is afraid of google & apple when it really should be Amazon imo | 15:57 |
| Hullo1 | mefistofeles, What distro are you on? :p | 15:57 |
| l0ndoner | I'm on pixel 3 Android 10. So will get the update if I like it or not | 15:59 |
| bn_mobile | Surely there's a way to disable auto update? | 16:00 |
| yuriwho | catching up..... it would only be fitting and fair for Apple to release it’s COVID tracking source code under a BSD LICENSE ;-) | 16:01 |
| Hullo1 | One could choose not to install an update. But the system always nags you for it | 16:01 |
| bn_mobile | dannixon: Isn't wifi assisted geolocation dependent on nearby wifi APs having GPS data programmed in? | 16:02 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: it depends, I don't connect directly from the computer I use... | 16:02 |
| Hullo1 | lol | 16:02 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: but for my personal computers I commonly use Arch and Solus | 16:03 |
| yuriwho | heck both Apple and Google know more about me than I do myself already | 16:03 |
| Hullo1 | Ah | 16:03 |
| bn_mobile | mefistofeles is really sitting in his underground bunker bat cave :) | 16:03 |
| yuriwho | I refuse to facebook | 16:03 |
| l0ndoner | Linux or GTFO lol | 16:03 |
| bn_mobile | ... in a tropical paradise somewhere :) | 16:03 |
| dannixon | <bn_mobile "dannixon: Isn't wifi assisted ge"> No, the locations are continuously scraped by Android devices and street view cars. You only need to be in range of an AP that Google has "seen" before. | 16:04 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: I wish! | 16:04 |
| Hullo1 | I was just checking out Solus again yesterday but for some reason, the system always ended up on a grub rescue prompt | 16:04 |
| Hullo1 | I tried reinstalling but no luck :Sigh | 16:04 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: really? hmm... what do you commonly use? | 16:04 |
| yuriwho | I only stoop to Linux for my computational cluster needs..... I’m a UXUI snob | 16:04 |
| Hullo1 | mefistofeles, I have used Solus in the past and I liked it then. Budgie is the home grown DE of these guys, right? | 16:05 |
| mefistofeles | yuriwho: nothing bad with UX/UI in the Linux world, imho, but it depends on what you are used to, I guess | 16:05 |
| yuriwho | CLI has it’s uses | 16:05 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: yes | 16:05 |
| yuriwho | also OS X allows me to fix many of Apples UXUI limitations | 16:05 |
| Hullo1 | I have come to really like Budgie as a DE | 16:05 |
| yuriwho | with the CLI | 16:05 |
| bn_mobile | dannixon: oh wow, so they apply ml to wifi signal strengths & triangulate it over time? | 16:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 14:01 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 16:06 |
| bn_mobile | DE? | 16:06 |
| mefistofeles | Desktop Environment | 16:06 |
| bn_mobile | Ah | 16:07 |
| bn_mobile | So what's Solus's focus VS other distros? & what does it use for package management? | 16:08 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: bit off topic, but it's pretty rolling release (more like weekly release) and it uses its own package manager, eopkg | 16:10 |
| bn_mobile | & format? | 16:11 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: the package format? | 16:11 |
| bn_mobile | Ya, apologies, was just curious | 16:11 |
| Hullo1 | Solus is also a showcase for it's homegrown Budgie DE though it ships in other formats as well | 16:12 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: not really sure what you mean by format in that context | 16:14 |
| bn_mobile | Like dpkg, rpm, or custom | 16:15 |
| bn_mobile | Er, deb | 16:15 |
| Hullo1 | dpkg is merely a form of interpreting and installing the underlying packages, be it deb or rpm, right? | 16:16 |
| mefistofeles | ah, ok | 16:16 |
| mefistofeles | bn_mobile: yes, it's a custom thing | 16:16 |
| mefistofeles | Hullo1: dpkg is meant for deb | 16:17 |
| bn_mobile | Didn't think dpkg could read RPMs too? | 16:17 |
| Hullo1 | Ah, yes | 16:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 14:20 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Noto che durante la crisi finanziaria del 2008, L'USA ha avuto un picco di disoccupazione di 10,2% → https://is.gd/ed7rnP | 16:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 14:23 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 16:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 14:25 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: vaccine 'not likely to come to fruition this year', says Raab: Foreign secretary says speculating on how to ease lockdown is not responsible; England reports lowest increase in death toll since the end of March; Scotland deaths rise by 18, Wales deaths up by 14; Boris Johnson to return to work on Monday → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 16:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 14:40 UTC: Stuntmen, Rolling Stones and Capt Tom at No1: the week's most uplifting clips – video: With much of the world still in lockdown owing to coronavirus, people are finding new ways to keep each others' spirits up. From Captain Tom Moore becoming the oldest person to score a UK No 1 with his cover of You'll Never Walk [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/3W9MOp | 16:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +2576 cases (now 963472), +92 deaths (now 54357) since 5 hours ago — Saudi Arabia: +1223 cases (now 17522) since a day ago — Iran: +1153 cases (now 90481), +60 deaths (now 5710) since a day ago | 16:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 14:47 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 16:56 |
| ynjhof[m] | %data maldives | 16:57 |
| Brainstorm | ynjhof[m]: In all areas, Maldives, there are 191 total cases (0.1% of the population) and 0 deaths (0.0% of cases) as of 8 minutes ago. 5296 tests were performed (3.6% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Maldives for time series data. | 16:57 |
| ynjhof[m] | >I keep feeling a weird fuzziness on my face, forgetting I just took the mask off | 17:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 15:00 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Decreto aprile, stop ai licenziamenti per altri due mesi - la Repubblica → https://is.gd/vpKKmb | 17:03 |
| ubLXI | a nicer article on the practicalities of tech contact tracing: https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2020/04/12/contact-tracing-in-the-real-world/ | 17:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 15:01 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 17:10 |
| ubLXI | yikes: "last week, 999 calls in Cambridge had a 40-minute wait and it took ambulances six hours to arrive. We cannot field an app that will cause more worried well people to phone 999." | 17:12 |
| LjL | Fifth, although the cryptographers – and now Google and Apple – are discussing more anonymous variants of the Singapore app, that’s not the problem. Anyone who’s worked on abuse will instantly realise that a voluntary app operated by anonymous actors is wide open to trolling. The performance art people will tie a phone to a dog and let it run around the park; the Russians will use the app to run service-denial attacks and spread panic; and | 17:12 |
| LjL | little Johnny will self-report symptoms to get the whole school sent home. | 17:12 |
| LjL | this seems a bit of a stretch | 17:12 |
| LjL | for starters the apps are generally being devised so that you can only upload your list of contacts using a code that is given to you *once you test positive* | 17:12 |
| LjL | so you can't just say "hey i've got a fever" to troll the app and get every contact of yours into isolation | 17:13 |
| LjL | > How is this to be dealt with? I expect the app developers will have to fit a user interface saying “You’re within range of device 38a5f01e20. Within infection range (y/n)?” But what happens when people get an avalanche of false alarms? | 17:13 |
| LjL | no that's obviously not how they're going to work and the author of this would know that if they had checked all the discussion about whether BLE signal range can be reliable enough to correlate with probability of infection | 17:13 |
| LjL | and that is also much of why they need cooperation from Google | 17:14 |
| LjL | (Apple cooperation is also needed for just running the app) | 17:14 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: German government confirms attempts by Chinese diplomats to persuade German officials to make positive public statements about China's management of the pandemic (10444 votes) | https://redd.it/g8d9xu | 17:15 |
| mefistofeles | Ah yes head that ↑ | 17:16 |
| ubLXI | article is dated early April, so it's a little out of date | 17:16 |
| LjL | The response should not be driven by cryptographers but by epidemiologists, and we should learn what we can from the countries that have managed best so far, such as South Korea and Taiwan. | 17:16 |
| LjL | ... which have used apps like this, and not lockdowns | 17:16 |
| LjL | i think more than out of date, the article is just gratuitously defeatist | 17:16 |
| LjL | the only point of concern it brings up for me is low adoption being likely | 17:16 |
| LjL | an app won't be magic, that's for sure | 17:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 15:14 UTC: Coronavirus UK live: hospital death rate rises by 413; George Eustice gives daily Downing Street briefing: Lowest daily rise in hospital deaths since end of March; vaccine ‘not likely’ this year, says Dominic Raab; Speculating on how to ease lockdown ‘not responsible’, adds foreign secretary; Boris Johnson to [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/rfkKzH | 17:17 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: governments will create a lot of benefits for those with the app, and GOogle and Apple as well, of course | 17:17 |
| mefistofeles | and that I personally don't like | 17:17 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, our privacy authority has stated somewhat clearly that the app shall not have goods or services depend on having it | 17:18 |
| ubLXI | LjL: you've heard of Ross Anderson? his field is security engineering; he makes it his job to see the scope for harm in that light | 17:19 |
| LjL | anyhow if the app is going to be voluntary, and it is in italy, i don't see anything better to do to *try* to enhance adoption that making it transparent, open source, and distributed as to be reasonably anonymous | 17:19 |
| LjL | ubLXI, i haven't, but i still disagree with most of what the article says | 17:19 |
| mefistofeles | there are cases now of governments making mandatory to have the app to get these stipends and helps from the government, specially in some latin american countries | 17:20 |
| mefistofeles | but hopefully that won't be the norm | 17:20 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, the EU privacy authority has been less clear cut than the Italian one | 17:20 |
| LjL | so i can't speak for other EU countries, nevermind others yet | 17:20 |
| LjL | the EU basically said the app should be voluntary BUT the whole thing isn't legally grounded on consensus, but on overwhelming public interest | 17:21 |
| LjL | which to me is a way of saying "make it voluntary unless people don't comply with voluntarily installing it" | 17:21 |
| mefistofeles | yes, this is just making way for new tracking apps built in on phones in the future, tbh | 17:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 15:17 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 17:24 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i'm unclear about that. the talk about the Google and Apple agreement basically implied that they'd made an app that would come with the OS, however now it looks more like they will be providing uniform APIs for other apps to access BLE in ways that are useful | 17:25 |
| LjL | we'll see i guess, i have no doubt that if Google and Apple actually pushed an app into phones, well, adoption would obviously be greater | 17:26 |
| mefistofeles | yes, surely | 17:26 |
| LjL | i mean, i would not get it installed, while a properly distributed open source application that doesn't depend on google play services, i would install | 17:27 |
| LjL | but i'm in a tiny minority | 17:27 |
| mefistofeles | same here | 17:27 |
| mefistofeles | we are a tiny minority, and they know that that's why they can get on invading privacy | 17:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 15:27 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Questa Sera → https://is.gd/R2O8su | 17:31 |
| Arstil | having corona is something you wouldn't want to hide | 17:31 |
| Arstil | if you hide it you're like | 17:32 |
| Arstil | literally trying to kill people | 17:32 |
| Arstil | so what's the problem with apps | 17:32 |
| mefistofeles | Arstil: nothing is wrong with apps | 17:35 |
| mefistofeles | not being done right is the problem | 17:35 |
| mefistofeles | as in privacy-aware and open | 17:35 |
| Arstil | gov need to know who to isolate | 17:38 |
| kPa | it's not even going to be effective at telling who should be isolated | 17:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 15:30 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 17:38 |
| mefistofeles | Arstil: yes, and that can be done without violating/invading privacy | 17:38 |
| mefistofeles | also yes, there's a big concern on how effective this can actually be | 17:39 |
| kPa | it can't. bluetooth ranges vary wildly | 17:40 |
| LjL | i believe that's part of why Google and Apple (and presumably Google's upstream manufacturers) need to be cooperating | 17:40 |
| LjL | they're the one with detailed info about the bluetooth chips | 17:40 |
| kPa | and it's going to be subject to over 9000 hacking attempts | 17:41 |
| mefistofeles | there's room for calibration for these things, but yes, I don't know how it can be achieved if at all | 17:41 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes, BT already is pretty bad security-wise | 17:41 |
| kPa | it's a waste of time in terms of actually doing anything, but good for giving people a false sense of security while collecting information on them | 17:41 |
| mefistofeles | well, it's an extra layer, that tackles the lack of actual solutions in the more fundamental levels | 17:42 |
| Arstil | how did SK flatten the curve? just test random ppl? | 17:42 |
| mefistofeles | Arstil: that's one of the main reasons and also tracking | 17:42 |
| kPa | it's also trivially easy to poision the dataset by broadcasting false bluetooth mac addresses, which you know is going to happen | 17:42 |
| LjL | the IDs aren't going to be just the MAC address aiui | 17:43 |
| mefistofeles | yes, it's more complicated than that | 17:43 |
| kPa | so you're saying the blueooth adapters will actually have to pair with eachother? | 17:43 |
| LjL | BLE requires no pairing for information exchange | 17:44 |
| LjL | these apps are based specifically on BLE and won't work on older phones without it | 17:44 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: the handshake is not done by mac addresses, afaik | 17:44 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, for these apps | 17:44 |
| kPa | either way you can easily broadcast a fake handshake | 17:44 |
| kPa | this is going to be a security nightmare | 17:44 |
| LjL | not necessarily one that corresponds to any real phone | 17:44 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: not that easily, this is analyzed in the white papers, you may want to check those | 17:45 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: nobody needs to collect information on anybody | 17:45 |
| kPa | the whole point is collecting IDs of people you were near | 17:46 |
| LjL | yeah i mean, this may not work effectively in the end, but for the basics of why they *think* it can work, there is definition documentation on the plans | 17:46 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes | 17:46 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: you don't know what people those IDs correspond to | 17:46 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, well, technically, you will if the person is passing next to you and you have a (modified) form of the app that alerts you of that | 17:47 |
| kPa | YOU don't, but the providers do. the whole point is to do social mapping | 17:47 |
| LjL | kPa, no | 17:47 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: true, you could, but how does that help me? | 17:47 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: No. There does not need to be any central storage of anything. | 17:47 |
| LjL | kPa, Italy explicitly went from server (government-)generated IDs to IDs generated by the phone itself because of pressures from Google and privacy advocated | 17:47 |
| LjL | s | 17:47 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: no, you don't send any data to providers or authorities unless you previously agree to that... at least for the BlueTrce one | 17:48 |
| Arsanerit | Of course it's possible to have incorrect information. People can lie about whether they are tested positive or negative. | 17:48 |
| mefistofeles | and some others as well, the DP European one as well | 17:48 |
| kPa | the providers still know your phone IDs... obviously this shouldn't have gov IDs the fact they were thinking about doing that shows a frightening lack of security awareness | 17:48 |
| Arsanerit | However, the hope is that enough people will use it honestly such that it will help containment. | 17:48 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: No, the provider does not need to have the phone ID. | 17:49 |
| LjL | kPa, the IDs are only sent to a central server if you turn out to be positive. then you are given a one-time code, and if you input that into the app, all the IDs you came in contact with are sent to a server. that server still doesn't know who those IDs correspond to. it just sends them to every phone. every phone will know "those are contacts of a positive person", but they won't know who these persons are. however if you ARE one of those people, you | 17:49 |
| LjL | know YOUR ID, and you're able to say "woah, one of those is me!" | 17:49 |
| kPa | the providers HAVE your phone ID to setup your phone... | 17:49 |
| LjL | no | 17:49 |
| LjL | jesus read up about this | 17:49 |
| LjL | these are not "phone IDs" in any standard sense of the term | 17:49 |
| mefistofeles | the health authorities will eventuall have them, but only if you agree to, most commonly because you have tested positive so you should agree to send your ID as an infected one | 17:49 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: The application can store locally the IDs of all phone I've been near to, and if someone gets a positive test, they can enter this in their phone which then broadcasts a message that all those IDs should self-isolate | 17:50 |
| kPa | how is the phone going to broacast that information once it's gone out of range? | 17:50 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: Why is this central server even needed? | 17:50 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: wouldn't a bitmessage-like protocol work? | 17:50 |
| ubLXI | open letter from 300 scientists on CT tech concerns, ending with links to desirable spec documentation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OQg2dxPu-x-RZzETlpV3lFa259Nrpk1J/view | 17:50 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: it is not broadcasting anything to some centralized database | 17:50 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, it could be replaced by a DHT but i doubt that will happen | 17:50 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, at any rate it's not being done | 17:51 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: I suppose it would rely on having mobile coverage at least, perhaps data coverage (or wifi). | 17:51 |
| kPa | so then how do you get notified if you were in contact with someone who later tested positive? | 17:51 |
| Arsanerit | If I'm in the middle of nowhere out of mobile phone coverage, I doubt it would work. | 17:51 |
| LjL | kPa, I JUST TOLD YOU | 17:51 |
| mefistofeles | no no :/ | 17:51 |
| mefistofeles | oh hell, this is hopeless | 17:51 |
| mefistofeles | just read the white papers, LjL do we have them in the sources? | 17:51 |
| LjL | no | 17:52 |
| bin_sh | what white papers? | 17:52 |
| bin_sh | post them lol | 17:52 |
| ubLXI | https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OQg2dxPu-x-RZzETlpV3lFa259Nrpk1J/view | 17:52 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: because that someone would be broadcasting a message (via the mobile phone network) which includes my ID. At least it could be done that way. | 17:52 |
| ubLXI | ^ in the links at the end | 17:52 |
| mefistofeles | I have posted them already, but it's better to have them in the URL in the topic | 17:52 |
| LjL | https://blog.google/documents/57/Overview_of_COVID-19_Contact_Tracing_Using_BLE.pdf | 17:52 |
| LjL | https://www.apple.com/covid19/contacttracing | 17:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 15:47 UTC: /u/slakmehl: France, Italy and Spain prepare to ease coronavirus lockdowns | World news | The Guardian → https://is.gd/hlTG1A | 17:53 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know what specific applications are doing in practice, but contact tracing can in theory be done in a privacy-minded way without any central storage. | 17:53 |
| kPa | Arsanerit: one doesn't just broadcast a message to all users on a phone network, that's not how mobile networks operate | 17:53 |
| LjL | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.punto-informatico.it%2Fimmuni-sara-open-source-parola-del-ministero%2F | 17:53 |
| Arsanerit | kPa: Why couldn't multicast work on a mobile network? | 17:53 |
| kPa | because that's not a thing that's programmed into the system | 17:53 |
| Arsanerit | It's part of TCP/IP. | 17:53 |
| mefistofeles | https://bluetrace.io/static/bluetrace_whitepaper-938063656596c104632def383eb33b3c.pdf | 17:53 |
| kPa | they'd have to rewrite everyone's firmware | 17:53 |
| LjL | https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwif8PbWuYbpAhWwwqYKHZzVBKAQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fec.europa.eu%2Fcommission%2Fpresscorner%2Fdetail%2Fen%2Fip_20_670&usg=AOvVaw0XNNurq4g6ukNGmpTWLyB0 | 17:54 |
| kPa | yes but that's TCP/IP over a cell network, the cell network does not allow you to directly communicate with your wireless peers | 17:54 |
| LjL | https://edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guidelines/guidelines-042020-use-location-data-and-contact-tracing_en | 17:54 |
| Arsanerit | Ok, then they'd presumably need to communicate those IDs via a server or network of servers. | 17:54 |
| kPa | plus the amount of traffic that would generate would be massively prohibitive... | 17:54 |
| kPa | yes they would have to | 17:55 |
| kPa | it's not like mobile networks operate like your LAN | 17:55 |
| LjL | https://github.com/DP-3T/documents/blob/master/DP3T%20White%20Paper.pdf | 17:55 |
| LjL | https://bluetrace.io/static/bluetrace_whitepaper-938063656596c104632def383eb33b3c.pdf | 17:56 |
| mefistofeles | heh | 17:56 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: we should add them to the source, when you find the time | 17:56 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, the sources list | 17:56 |
| Arsanerit | how far are we from widespread deployment of such an application? | 17:56 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, i am not sure what the original ORIGINAL sources are. some of the above are just slideshows, others are articles i got information from in bits and pieces | 17:57 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, those two last ones are ones you posted | 17:57 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: no worries, it will be refined as time goes | 17:57 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: those last one I know are original, and the ones in google blog and Apple sites sound reasonable | 17:57 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, days/weeks if you listed to the italian government | 17:58 |
| mefistofeles | I guess that's a start | 17:58 |
| LjL | if you listen to SK or Singapore, they have been there for weeks already | 17:58 |
| LjL | so it certainly depends on your "we" | 17:58 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, bluetrace homesite is already in the list. i should add the main documents from DP-3T and from the other guys who don't like DP-3T, i never remember the repeated-letter acryonym | 17:59 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: well, I'd suggest a separate section for tracking apps | 17:59 |
| mefistofeles | or better contact tracing | 17:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 15:59 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: AGGIORNAMENTO 26/04/2020 ORE 17.00 POSITIVI AL nCov aS DIMESSI; Totale V1} pecepuTi| casitotau | CAS! TOTALI Terapia | Isolamento . attualmente | GUARITI (rispetto al giorno intensiva | domiciliare precedente) positivi Lombardia : 706 25.979 35.166 +920 337.797 208.471 Piemonte E 214 12.439 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/h56iD3 | 18:00 |
| kPa | yeah all of these techniques require uploading some sort of identifier or identifiers you've been in contact with to a centralized system and then asking the system if you've been in contact wi any that are positiveth | 18:00 |
| LjL | no | 18:00 |
| LjL | no | 18:00 |
| LjL | no | 18:00 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: no, they don't, again read the whie papers | 18:00 |
| kPa | also, you need some sort of verification that people are actually positive otherwise it's a total mess | 18:00 |
| mefistofeles | whute* | 18:00 |
| mefistofeles | oh shit, white xD | 18:00 |
| LjL | kPa, yes, you get tested | 18:00 |
| kPa | i just read them... | 18:00 |
| mefistofeles | LOL | 18:00 |
| LjL | you haven't read what i wrote | 18:00 |
| LjL | or failed to understand it | 18:01 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: work on your reading skills then... | 18:01 |
| LjL | <LjL> kPa, the IDs are only sent to a central server if you turn out to be positive. then you are given a one-time code, and if you input that into the app, all the IDs you came in contact with are sent to a server. that server still doesn't know who those IDs correspond to. it just sends them to every phone. every phone will know "those are contacts of a positive person", but they won't know who these persons are. however if you ARE one of those people, | 18:01 |
| LjL | you | 18:01 |
| LjL | <LjL> know YOUR ID, and you're able to say "woah, one of those is me!" | 18:01 |
| LjL | so NO | 18:01 |
| kPa | what you wrote makes no sense from a technical perspective | 18:01 |
| mefistofeles | "Encounter messages and encounter histories areexchanged and stored in a decentralised, peer-to-peermanner, without the participation of a central server." | 18:01 |
| LjL | you will NOT be asking the centralized system if you've been in contact | 18:01 |
| mefistofeles | just from the first I checked | 18:01 |
| LjL | the centralized system will send a list of ALL IDs that have been in contact with someone positive (which is done by that positive person uploading their list, with a code given by the ones who tested you positive to ensure it's genuine) | 18:01 |
| LjL | then phones will just get a list of all those contacts | 18:02 |
| LjL | they will go "oh, this is not me, no problem" | 18:02 |
| LjL | or they will go "wait, THIS is me, crap! better show the user a notification" | 18:02 |
| LjL | i don't know how else i can break it down | 18:02 |
| kPa | that's a distinction without a difference | 18:02 |
| LjL | if you don't understand parts of this ask what's unclear instead of just restating things that are not true | 18:02 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: also, regarding what you said about knowing the ID of someone that passes closeby... it's true, but the ids only live for some, hopefully short, amount of time, so even then it's pretty hard to tell | 18:02 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, yeah that might be why they envisioned cycling IDs, since i really wasn't sure about the purpose of that | 18:03 |
| mefistofeles | yes | 18:03 |
| kPa | you do realize that it doesn't matter if you have one idea or multiple IDs or even if the IDs are cryptographic IDs, it doesns't make any difference, it just serves to make people feel better | 18:05 |
| kPa | the whole point is it's a social contract tracing system... it has to create a network of people you've come into contact with | 18:05 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: depends, the app itself does not create it, it only stores the data | 18:06 |
| mefistofeles | when you get tested positive you are asked to give this data and upload it to these centralized servers, from health authorities | 18:06 |
| mefistofeles | and then these services create the network | 18:06 |
| mefistofeles | or extend it, rather | 18:06 |
| kPa | it's irrelevant where the data is actually stored or who creates the IDs, they could all be random GUID v4's it doesn't matter | 18:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +4463 cases (now 152840), +413 deaths (now 20732) since a day ago — US: +603 cases (now 964075) since an hour ago — Chile: +473 cases (now 13331) since a day ago | 18:07 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: doesn't matter for what exactly? | 18:07 |
| kPa | for anonyminity or privacy or whatever it is that we're trying to get around the fact that there's some centralized system to submit data to and query from | 18:08 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: it does matter, and government and health authorities already have your data, just as when you go to the doctor they have your record | 18:08 |
| mefistofeles | so the assumption here is that you trust them with your data, as we have for years | 18:09 |
| mefistofeles | and it does matter in the sense that no third party can get the data, because it's safely stored in a anonymous manner | 18:09 |
| kPa | that's my point... you might as well use IMEI numbers as your identifier, they already have the medical data | 18:09 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: IMEI are easy to clone | 18:10 |
| kPa | it's all easy to clone | 18:10 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: no | 18:10 |
| mefistofeles | not all | 18:10 |
| mefistofeles | there are easier things, IMEI being one that's easier than the proposed IDs from these apps | 18:10 |
| mefistofeles | specially considering how it doesn't change in time | 18:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 16:09 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Charles Ornstein su Twitter: "The descent is real in NY state.… " → https://is.gd/zs2LR3 | 18:14 |
| rmonten[m] | So am I getting this right? The idea is that every BT handshake, both devices would broadcast a unique one-time ID and locally store a list of both sent and received IDs. Then when Alice tests positive for sars-cov-2, her list of received IDs is uploaded to some central/distributed table, which Bob can download and compare with his list of sent IDs? | 18:19 |
| mefistofeles | rmonten[m]: yes, something like that, probably Bob don't have to manually download it but the notification will be pushed | 18:21 |
| rmonten[m] | mefistofeles: Yes of course, thanks! | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 16:15 UTC: Coronavirus US live: Cuomo says deaths and hospitalizations down in New York: Governor says there have been 16,966 deaths from Covid-19 in state Deborah Birx describes president’s remarks as a ‘dialogue’ Live global updates See all our coronavirus coverage Get a fresh perspective on America – sign up to our [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/An3qCt | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +2870 cases (now 226629), +288 deaths (now 23190) since a day ago — Italy: +2324 cases (now 197675), +260 deaths (now 26644) since a day ago — US: +829 cases (now 964904), +401 deaths (now 54776) since 19 minutes ago | 18:22 |
| kPa | In order to recieve a push notification, without downloading the full list of IDs that have been used that are positive, that someone is positive who has seen one of Bob's IDs someone has to know all of the IDs Bob has used. | 18:22 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes, basically the app itself does it | 18:23 |
| mefistofeles | it downloads the new info and compares | 18:23 |
| mefistofeles | that's not the only way, and that's where many implementations may vary | 18:23 |
| kPa | So the app will regularly download a massive list of IDs that have tested positive? This list is quickly going to become many GB if people are using new IDs regularly. | 18:24 |
| l0ndoner | so BT is signaling at all times to anything that will listen... my Alexa app and in car BT listen at all times | 18:24 |
| mefistofeles | you can actually have a centralized server all the time, the specification allows for that | 18:24 |
| mefistofeles | but you don't need one | 18:24 |
| kPa | If you have a centralized server that knows all the IDs you used there's no real point in creating new IDs regularly. | 18:25 |
| l0ndoner | so the ID could be blockchain? | 18:25 |
| mefistofeles | l0ndoner: don't think so | 18:25 |
| rmonten[m] | Just torrent protocol would work, no? | 18:26 |
| l0ndoner | I want to opt out... MY Alexa already knows way to much as on that note so does Google | 18:26 |
| Arsanerit | l0ndoner: afaik this app would be optional | 18:26 |
| ubLXI | l0ndoner: your alexa and car should not be communicating with a contact tracing app | 18:26 |
| Arsanerit | but IIRC 90% of Germans reported they would install it if privacy was safeguarded | 18:27 |
| kPa | rmonten[m] the download protocol isn't the problem, the problem is the size of the information and how often you'd have get updates and how often everyone would have to get updates | 18:27 |
| Spec | privacy seems difficult to safeguard | 18:27 |
| Arsanerit | once a day? | 18:27 |
| Arsanerit | Spec: difficult yes, impossible no | 18:27 |
| Spec | even if you're broadcasting contact graphs? | 18:27 |
| Spec | seems impossible | 18:28 |
| ubLXI | l0ndoner: a well formed contact tracing app would only communicate with other versions of itself, and a health authority for subsequent push notifications | 18:28 |
| Arsanerit | I don't know about that specific system, but the Chaos Computer Club, which is pretty strong on privacy, produced some concepts that would not violate privacy. | 18:28 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: how? | 18:28 |
| rmonten[m] | kPa: yes, I agree. I was just saying the full blockchain protocol wouldn't be necessary | 18:28 |
| l0ndoner | BT from my phone signals to all phones on the cell tower in that grid? | 18:28 |
| kPa | the whole point of what we're discussing is so you don't have to directly broadcast your contact graphs, but someone somewhere has to have enough information to figure out who contacted who even if it's not directly personally identifiable | 18:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 16:25 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 18:29 |
| ubLXI | kPa: when you find you've been infected, you upload your new status to the health authority, along with your locally stored list of BT contacts | 18:29 |
| ubLXI | that health authority then notifies everyone on that list | 18:29 |
| Spec | yeah, and that is broadcast ^, right? | 18:29 |
| mefistofeles | ubLXI: no, not quite... | 18:30 |
| Spec | and so you just listen to this and build up database and over time will have nice data and you can attempt to correlate/deanonymize later | 18:30 |
| l0ndoner | So something is being broadcast at all times? | 18:30 |
| l0ndoner | or once a day? | 18:30 |
| mefistofeles | l0ndoner: I guess everytime the health authority pushes an update of the info | 18:30 |
| Spec | maybe there is some fancy mathematics involved, where is this proposal? | 18:30 |
| l0ndoner | is google paying the push and get? | 18:31 |
| kPa | right but if we're pushing updates of one-time-use IDs to each client each update is going to be massive | 18:31 |
| l0ndoner | apple as well | 18:31 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: not much mathematics other than the usual AES encryption thing | 18:31 |
| l0ndoner | huwei | 18:31 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: the ones I prefer are https://github.com/DP-3T/documents/blob/master/DP3T%20White%20Paper.pdf and https://bluetrace.io/static/bluetrace_whitepaper-938063656596c104632def383eb33b3c.pdf | 18:32 |
| l0ndoner | mefistofeles: is bluetrace the one singapore wants to use? | 18:33 |
| mefistofeles | l0ndoner: yes, and been using it for weeks/months already | 18:33 |
| kPa | Spec it's not possible to correlate/deanoomyize if you don't broacast people you've come into contact with, just broadast IDs you've used if you're positive. The problem is this broadcast update will quickly become massive | 18:33 |
| kPa | But also if you do it that way you cannot have analysis such as "you've come into contact with someone who came into contact" | 18:34 |
| rmonten[m] | (please let my math be right 🤞) | 18:34 |
| rmonten[m] | <kPa "right but if we're pushing updat"> Actually quick estimate: let's say 100,000 new cases/day, 20 recent contacts/case, 32Byte ID/contact, that would give a list of 152MB per day. Now that's if you put the whole world in the same list. In reality you'd probably only be interested in your country or some smaller subdivision thereof | 18:35 |
| rmonten[m] | kPa: let's say that's a feature, not a bug ;-) | 18:36 |
| kPa | that doesn't include using a one-time-id for each contact, or even a few-time-id for a few contacts. The scale quickly multiples | 18:36 |
| l0ndoner | 66million * 32bytes is nothing | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +5448 cases (now 970352), +136 deaths (now 54912) since 20 minutes ago — New Jersey, US: +3515 cases (now 109038), +75 deaths (now 5938) since 23 hours ago — Indiana, US: +617 cases (now 15012) since 23 hours ago | 18:37 |
| ubLXI | what's this about broadcast? in what spec is anything broadcast? | 18:37 |
| rmonten[m] | kPa: It does include 1-time IDs if those 50 contacts I assumed include counting multiple contacts with the same person. | 18:38 |
| ubLXI | the idea is to keep everything device-local, until a central notification server requires news of a new infection, at which point it one-to-one notifies each device in a list that came with the infection news | 18:39 |
| mefistofeles | ubLXI: many things are done in the backend server of the authorities | 18:41 |
| mefistofeles | I just linked two of the papers, they explain it with enough detail | 18:41 |
| Spec | mefistofeles: neat, seems legit | 18:42 |
| l0ndoner | rough estimate 2.112GB | 18:42 |
| l0ndoner | 16,6Gb | 18:43 |
| ubLXI | anyway, i haven't seen this linked yet: "Analysis of DP3T": https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/399 | 18:43 |
| kPa | yeah it's still going to add up quickly, and assumes everyone has unlimited mobile download and plenty of storage room on their phones to maintain this list | 18:43 |
| mefistofeles | that's where Apple and Google enter the picture, if we want these things to be as much as "on local device" as possible, the OS needs to relax limitations for background processes | 18:43 |
| mefistofeles | ubLXI: nice | 18:44 |
| ubLXI | kPa: add up quickly? what adds up quickly? | 18:44 |
| kPa | ubLXI: we're discussing everyone's phones recieving a daily update of reported IDs used who's users tested positive such that your phone can do a comparison if you've seen any of the postiive IDs | 18:46 |
| kPa | what I'm saying is the actual download and storage of the list will quickly become unmanagable if everyone is using one-time-ids | 18:46 |
| kPa | downloading a localized list does seem to help with that problem a lot | 18:47 |
| ubLXI | is anyone actually proposing such a mode of operation? | 18:47 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes, that's true | 18:47 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: this is mitigated by usiong more these centralized servers | 18:47 |
| Spec | ubLXI: hah, i did wonder if you could deanonymize people by spreading out a grid of ble sensors | 18:47 |
| mefistofeles | and authorities pushing notifications only to those in contact with a confirmed one | 18:47 |
| l0ndoner | kPa: for the whole of uk the daily storage on a rough estimate of 32 bytes of data adds up to 16.6Gb | 18:47 |
| kPa | Spec: Probably. | 18:47 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: for a short amount of time you can | 18:48 |
| ubLXI | no one is proposing this work be done on local devices, though? | 18:48 |
| l0ndoner | daily thats a harsh estimate itll be way lower than than google alone wouldnt even feel the strain let alone the storage | 18:48 |
| mefistofeles | the IDs live for some minutes | 18:48 |
| kPa | l0ndoner: you're saying everyone in the UK has 16GB of free space on their devices for this or free bandwidth to download it | 18:48 |
| mefistofeles | ubLXI: I don't think so | 18:49 |
| l0ndoner | kPa: the whole list doesnt live on your phone | 18:49 |
| ubLXI | "everyone's phones recieving a daily update of reported IDs used who's users tested positive" < wut | 18:49 |
| kPa | ubLXI this is the only way I could foresee not having a centralized system that could build the entire contact tree no matter how many IDs you use | 18:49 |
| ubLXI | why would you even think this would be an option | 18:49 |
| rmonten[m] | <ubLXI "is anyone actually proposing suc"> I was, so no one serious :-) | 18:49 |
| l0ndoner | just your unique id | 18:49 |
| Spec | ubLXI: it's just a number | 18:49 |
| rmonten[m] | l0ndoner: How did you get 16Gb? I got 150MB for the whole world | 18:50 |
| ubLXI | everyone in the country gets a local copy of the social graph? that's insanity | 18:50 |
| Spec | it doesn't let you easily identify who it was you contacted, or where | 18:50 |
| Spec | you just have a record that your BLE sensor saw an ID w/ that hash | 18:50 |
| kPa | no ubLXI just a list of one time use IDs that have been used by people who tested positive | 18:50 |
| l0ndoner | rmonten[m]: on 32 bytes? | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 16:50 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Coronavirus, il bollettino della Protezione civile (26 aprile) - Open → https://is.gd/FixvqW | 18:50 |
| Spec | so you'd need a grid -- or cooperation amongst many people, to track and deanonymize w/ other sources | 18:51 |
| l0ndoner | i cant see the unique id being 32 bytes though | 18:51 |
| Spec | seems challenging, lol, there are easier ways to track people | 18:51 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: yes, indeed haha | 18:51 |
| Spec | so i guess it passes the LowBarrier test :D | 18:51 |
| rmonten[m] | l0ndoner: 32bytes/contact * 50 contacts/case * 100,000 cases/day | 18:51 |
| l0ndoner | I ronded up to uk population 66 million | 18:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Turkey: +2357 cases (now 110130), +99 deaths (now 2805) since a day ago — US: +405 cases (now 970757) since 18 minutes ago — Louisiana, US: +261 cases (now 26773) since 23 hours ago | 18:52 |
| kPa | I think the assumption of 50 contacts / case would be extremely low, especailly given BLE's larger tranmission range | 18:52 |
| l0ndoner | not on phone on a google server somewhere | 18:52 |
| rmonten[m] | l0ndoner: Sure but not everyone gets infacted on the same day, right? | 18:52 |
| rmonten[m] | s/infacted/infected | 18:52 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: it won't be using the complete range | 18:52 |
| mefistofeles | just something calibrated for 2m or so | 18:53 |
| l0ndoner | rmonten[m]: your right | 18:53 |
| kPa | range depends heavily on environment | 18:53 |
| kPa | not something easily calibrated out | 18:53 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes, it has errors | 18:53 |
| rmonten[m] | Also 32bytes would be far too low indeed, let's say 64 or 128 | 18:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network * at 16:55 UTC: Add extensive "Contact tracing" section: For this this is mostly about tracing protocols and architectures, as well as political views on various approach, with an emphasis on the EU and Italy in particular → https://is.gd/NzepkT | 18:58 |
| LjL | Spec, <ubLXI> that health authority then notifies everyone on that list ← in the distributed approach, the health authority just notifies *everyone*, as they have no clue who to notify. then, locally on your phone, there will be matching with your IDs, and the phone can notify you if there is a match | 18:58 |
| Spec | ah, and it's just a list of ids, not the graphs | 18:58 |
| LjL | also, i just added a massive amount of links to the resource page, so i hope despite my effort containing the usual amount of markdown fuckups, it will be used a bit to understand how all this is devised to work | 18:59 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yes, but I don't really see that happening, in a practical sense | 18:59 |
| mefistofeles | ↑ | 18:59 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: thanks | 18:59 |
| Spec | also i don't know about these sorts of systems and how effective they will be | 18:59 |
| Spec | do we have any idea what the percentage of spread is via surface contact vs person coughing in your face? | 19:00 |
| kPa | Yeah I agree it's not practical. And I do not think using bluetooth neighbors will give a good estimate of likely transmissibility anyway. | 19:00 |
| LjL | Spec, France and Germany are pushing for something (which i believe at this time is called ROBERT but there could be more than one thing) that would allow them to create graphs. i think also the "small" technical difference of having government servers create your ID, which is what Italy was going for, would allow creating such graphs. those may be epidemiologically useful but the impact on privacy is obvious. Italy has allegedly dropped the idea, i bet | 19:00 |
| LjL | mostly just because Google and Apple said "nope, we won't give you BLE API access if you do that" | 19:00 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, kPa: how is it not practical? we aren't using 33.6kbps modems, and IDs aren't going to be novels. i think it will be perfectly doable to send contact ID lists to every phone. | 19:01 |
| LjL | one play of one youtube video will probably take up more data than that | 19:01 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: it would be lower, that's for certain, so it's a "worst case scenario" I guess | 19:01 |
| JamGobbar | https://nypost.com/2020/04/26/belgians-urged-to-eat-more-fries-during-coronavirus-pandemic/ <<=-- eat french fries for the good of everyone! | 19:01 |
| JamGobbar | thats the kind of program i can get behind | 19:02 |
| LjL | <Spec> do we have any idea what the percentage of spread is via surface contact vs person coughing in your face? ← no, we don't, but it's comforting to know that public authorities are routinely saying they are confident the main route of transmission is via droplet, despite there being no hard data on this at all | 19:02 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: *every* phone would be downloading that, I don't really see it practically working | 19:02 |
| mefistofeles | that's probably why they are not using it that way | 19:02 |
| kPa | LjL: what you said is less comforting because it means they're spouting off nonsense to make people feel better | 19:03 |
| mefistofeles | instead they rely on trst you have on these authorities | 19:03 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, every phone is downloading, say, A-GPS data with information on where some 60 (random number) satellites are, on a frequent basis, i don't see the internet going down from it | 19:03 |
| mefistofeles | trust* | 19:03 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: they are not downloading that from the same server | 19:03 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, mostly it's from supl.google.com | 19:03 |
| LjL | except many Chinese phones | 19:04 |
| LjL | well and Apple | 19:04 |
| mefistofeles | unless you expect now the health authorities to have a cloud or data center, I don't see it happening | 19:04 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, say again what is it that makes you say they are not using it that way? | 19:04 |
| mefistofeles | because they aren't haha | 19:04 |
| LjL | well right now nobody is using anything in the EU | 19:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American at 17:00 UTC: Our Response to COVID-19 Is Male-Centric: We don’t know how the coronavirus may affect women and men differently, which prevents us from delivering appropriate and personalized care -- Read more on ScientificAmerican.com → https://is.gd/sGgCaH | 19:05 |
| mefistofeles | the IDs so far from the cases I've read (Singapore and Taiwan) are being sncrypted in the servers and broadcasted to the phones | 19:05 |
| mefistofeles | encrypted* | 19:05 |
| mefistofeles | so basically all the computation is happening in the servers | 19:05 |
| Butterfly^ | https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/how-does-coronavirus-kill-clinicians-trace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes Title: How does coronavirus kill? Clinicians trace a ferocious rampage through the body, from brain to toes ... | 19:05 |
| Spec | LjL: is it the seed(key) that is sent? right? | 19:05 |
| LjL | well that's not the approach Italy is taking | 19:05 |
| kPa | Actually probably the most effective way to implement this would be a push update to the Facebook App... Facebook already has all of your data. | 19:05 |
| LjL | Spec, seed/key of what? | 19:05 |
| Spec | so you generate their entire sequence of IDs and see if you recognize any of them | 19:05 |
| Spec | of the infected zombies | 19:06 |
| Spec | the seed of the PRNG that makes the ble ids | 19:06 |
| Spec | that's what gets shared right? | 19:06 |
| LjL | Spec, no | 19:06 |
| LjL | don't think so | 19:06 |
| Spec | why not? | 19:06 |
| LjL | because that wouldn't make sense to me | 19:06 |
| LjL | anyway | 19:06 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: shared by who? | 19:06 |
| LjL | why don't you read the papers i just linked | 19:06 |
| Spec | the central server | 19:06 |
| kPa | yeah you might was well just use one ID then | 19:06 |
| LjL | then i might do the same instead of answering questions i have not the full answers to until i have | 19:06 |
| LjL | also realize that this is a *number* of different proposed systems | 19:07 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: no, so far, the centralized servers are the only capable of decrypting the information/IDs | 19:07 |
| LjL | we are mostly talking here about the most privacy-conscious ones | 19:07 |
| mefistofeles | because they were the ones encrypting it | 19:07 |
| LjL | but there are definitely different ideas within and outside of the european union on what's "private enough" | 19:07 |
| mefistofeles | if they shared the key for encryption/decryption it would be hell | 19:07 |
| Spec | kPa: oh yeah, you'd be able to determine who it was if you had multiple contacts w/ same person | 19:08 |
| LjL | Spec, DT-3P is probably the most genuinely privacy-preserving approach in the EU, while PEPP-PT is less so, and ROBERT is just prying | 19:08 |
| LjL | that said, you should compare those approaches based on all those papers/articles | 19:08 |
| LjL | it will work much better than asking me for details i may not have | 19:08 |
| LjL | MY understanding, i've explained it | 19:08 |
| Spec | LjL: i've only read 1/2 of DT-3P! :P | 19:08 |
| LjL | 1) you generate an ID on your phone, based on... things, but anyway not just obvious identifiers like MAC | 19:08 |
| LjL | (alternative: government server generates them for you, which is obviously more privacy invasive) | 19:09 |
| LjL | 2) you change your ID frequently enough that people coming next to you and being like "woah, that's the ID of someone dangerous!" isn't a big issue | 19:09 |
| Spec | so each infected person would have 14 unique codes (1/day is what the paper said i think) uploaded at time of discovery | 19:09 |
| Spec | that's not that much data, is it? | 19:09 |
| LjL | 3) whenever you meet another phone, you exchange your IDs, and keep them saved | 19:09 |
| LjL | 4) IDs are not uploaded to a server until there is someone who actually tests positive | 19:10 |
| LjL | 5) when someone does test positive, they are given a TAN code that they should input into their app | 19:10 |
| l0ndoner | might as well use blockchain | 19:10 |
| LjL | 6) at that point the app uploads the entire list of that phone's contact IDs to a server, with a signature that guarantees the user actually had a valid TAN code and isn't just fooling around | 19:10 |
| l0ndoner | for all the sense this is making | 19:10 |
| kPa | I fail to see how blockchain is even relevant | 19:11 |
| Spec | ^ | 19:11 |
| LjL | ^ | 19:11 |
| l0ndoner | trace track and tackle | 19:11 |
| LjL | 7) the server blindly broadcasts this list to every phone (which mefistofeles thinks is not feasible from a network load perspective) | 19:11 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: ah, they do something different | 19:11 |
| mefistofeles | pretty clever!! nice | 19:12 |
| LjL | 8) then every phone checks this list of IDs it just received against its internal list of IDs it has previously held | 19:12 |
| mefistofeles | because they do it in a two step thing, the tempIDs are not the ones shared, only the "seed" | 19:12 |
| LjL | 9) if there is a match, then it notifies the user, and then it's up to governments what to advice such users to do ("get tested" seems obvious but in Italy it's being discussed because we may still not have enough tests) | 19:12 |
| LjL | the end | 19:12 |
| kPa | mefistofeles that maeks a bigg difference in (7) | 19:12 |
| mefistofeles | but it's a bit less secure I'd think, but secure enough as long the attacker doesn't get real access to your phone | 19:12 |
| l0ndoner | bit like when you wave your nfc phone at the checkout.... Your actual card aint shared? | 19:12 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes, because with that Skt key you generate all of the others, so you don't have to broadcast all that | 19:13 |
| Spec | world had +89721 cases, if it's 32byte code of contacts for 14 day history, today's data transfer would be: 40.19 megabytes | 19:13 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, well i guess that's what Spec was talking about but see i have no idea while instead of reading these details (honestly i don't care a LOT for the details since the way i described seems pretty reasonable to me, then you can optimize it in many ways i'm sure) i have to collect a big list of links in order to make sure people don't keep repeating things that are just wrong | 19:13 |
| kPa | lots of CPU/GPU time on everyone's phones generating everyone's tempIDs to do the comparison though | 19:14 |
| l0ndoner | Spec: thats nothing I must chew through a GB of data every other day just listening to Spotify | 19:14 |
| Spec | yeah, the level of effort to break this system is silly vs the level of effort to get them to install MyTrackerGame.apk | 19:14 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: yes, that s why they need the Google/Apple thing | 19:14 |
| mefistofeles | because Singapore tried something like that but failed, due to OS limiting it | 19:14 |
| LjL | Spec, it will most likely be done at country level, not global. i believe PEPP-PT's purpose is partly/mostly creating a protocol for communicating data between a country and another. so when there is cross-country stuff, there would be gateways to make apps interoperate, they wouldn't interoperate directly | 19:14 |
| kPa | Yeah Spec, that's what I'm saying, we need to just implement it in the Facebook app which has all your contacts and tracks you anyway and already has mass adoption. | 19:14 |
| Spec | let's suppose you want the last 14 days worth of data synchs, which contain 14 days of codes each, because that's more reasonable to "catch up": we're at half a gig | 19:15 |
| rmonten[m] | LjL: nice, thanks! | 19:15 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: true | 19:15 |
| Spec | LjL: yeah, so these are just theoretical maxes | 19:15 |
| Spec | seems reasonable | 19:15 |
| Spec | but 500 megs might be a bit too much for tinwhiskers :P | 19:16 |
| LjL | Spec, and even with this theoretical max, i don't seem downloading 40MB daily as very much of a problem | 19:16 |
| l0ndoner | half gig split between the phones communivcating or the cell towers? | 19:16 |
| LjL | Spec, well tinwhiskers doesn't live anywhere with cases so there is that, he can work with 0MB | 19:16 |
| Spec | yeah, 40mb/day is fine if you keep up | 19:16 |
| l0ndoner | I need to read LjL white papers | 19:16 |
| Spec | i'm not sure i can handle that with my gigabit connection | 19:16 |
| kPa | LjL: also most people do not have fancy phones. There are many phones in which this would quickly become prohibitive. | 19:17 |
| LjL | kPa, those phones aren't even *in* the game because they aren't going to have BLE | 19:17 |
| LjL | this is recognized | 19:17 |
| LjL | about 2 billion phones won't be able to work with this | 19:17 |
| mefistofeles | pretty clever that Skt idea, and so simple :P | 19:17 |
| LjL | out of around 5 billion total | 19:18 |
| LjL | this won't be great for, say, India | 19:18 |
| Spec | that's a pretty big gap | 19:18 |
| mefistofeles | around 1.3MB each day to be downloaded | 19:18 |
| LjL | but it's a problem that has already been identified | 19:18 |
| kPa | Then... this is even less effective than I imagined | 19:18 |
| Spec | mefistofeles: what's the Skt idea? | 19:18 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: a key used as a seed for all the others | 19:18 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: so, as you implied, you only share some kind of seed | 19:19 |
| kPa | Yeah it would probably work for any phone with a few gigabytes of free space and came with a BLE transciever | 19:19 |
| Spec | and their implementation doesn't defeat anonymization? | 19:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 17:16 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 19:19 |
| Spec | kPa: why a few gigabytes? | 19:19 |
| mefistofeles | Spec: no, because all the computation is done locally in the device | 19:19 |
| kPa | either downloading lists of IDs or scractch space for generating IDs/comparisons while doing the Skt thing | 19:20 |
| mefistofeles | now, the problem is whether is safer to trust individual devices of stupid people or a centralized server from an audited health authority :P | 19:20 |
| mefistofeles | if one were to really attack this, which is also not worth it, imho | 19:21 |
| mefistofeles | I guess that s also where the Google/Apple thing comes from, they could probably make this specially hidden from all the other things running in the phone | 19:22 |
| kPa | why would you want/need to hide it? | 19:23 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: to avoid thir party apps to get your private key | 19:24 |
| mefistofeles | third* | 19:24 |
| mefistofeles | so less "hackable" | 19:24 |
| kPa | oh you're not saying from the user, but other software | 19:26 |
| LjL | Android apps all have private space | 19:26 |
| kPa | Does iOS not? | 19:26 |
| LjL | you can go further by encrypting things with the TPM, but really normal apps can't just go and read data from other apps | 19:26 |
| LjL | i bet it does, but i have zero familiarity with iOS | 19:27 |
| danielp3344 | LjL: unless things go wrong, they always go wrong with android | 19:27 |
| mefistofeles | ↑ | 19:27 |
| l0ndoner | ^^ | 19:27 |
| kPa | Then... why would hiding it be any better? I mean if you can break the sandboxing/private space you can get into it no matter where they've hidden it. | 19:28 |
| mefistofeles | just playing the paranoid card, but yes, it's still not likely | 19:28 |
| l0ndoner | protocol communicates using SSL ? | 19:28 |
| danielp3344 | l0ndoner: SSL is pretty hackable | 19:28 |
| mefistofeles | l0ndoner: probably not needed | 19:28 |
| mefistofeles | since no personal information is shared | 19:28 |
| mefistofeles | for most users... for those testing positive is another story, credentials are needed there from the health authority | 19:29 |
| LjL | kPa, there are various levels of "private" spaces. ARM hardware these days comes with protected areas where you can run things that are untouchable from the rest of the system | 19:29 |
| LjL | i'm not saying this is warranted | 19:29 |
| LjL | i'm just saying there's a lot of this | 19:29 |
| l0ndoner | so am I right in thinking its similar to a 0 or 1 everyone walks around thats normal comms a 0 any one that has reported is a 1 .... basic I know but along those lines? | 19:30 |
| danielp3344 | LjL: trustzone can still screw them though | 19:30 |
| mefistofeles | l0ndoner: not sure what you mean there | 19:32 |
| kPa | Honestly the effectiveness vs the cost to implement doesn't make sense, especially when non BLE phones are excluded. A much better case is to add it to Facebook app and get instant mass adoption with something people are freely giving away their private info on anyway. | 19:35 |
| LjL | how would Facebook handle the issue of... still needing BLE? | 19:36 |
| LjL | i mean apart from the privacy implications that i don't even want to start getting into | 19:36 |
| kPa | They wouldn't. It would be inactive on those phones and tell people to get a new phone. Oh yeah that's just based on the fact that Facebook already has everyone's contacts. | 19:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +5041 cases (now 975798) since 51 minutes ago — New York, US: +5041 cases (now 293354) since an hour ago — Ireland: +701 cases (now 19262) since a day ago | 19:37 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: that would violate GDPR, and MANY would end up suing facebook, etc etc etc | 19:37 |
| LjL | GDPR has a blanket provision for overwhelming public interest though | 19:38 |
| kreyren | Czech republic is conducting a survey on covid-19 anti-bodies in populus by taking a seemingly random tests of inviduals. The resutls are expected to be in 14.05.2020 which should help identify how many people had covid-19 in comparison to conducted tests. | 19:39 |
| kPa | I'm sure they could immunize Facebook because of an 'emergency'. All I'm saying is the potential payoff to cost is much greater to have Facebook manage and push it to people's phones if everyone using it already doesn't care about privacy. | 19:39 |
| kPa | There certainly would be a problem if governments started requiring it. | 19:39 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: far from possible to be honest | 19:40 |
| kPa | What? | 19:40 |
| mefistofeles | they would also have to certify facebook as an authority for dealing with health personal information and all that | 19:40 |
| mefistofeles | and I really hope facebook or anything even close to it handles any of my personal information | 19:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 17:34 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: Spain's daily death toll drops below 300 as children allowed out for first time in weeks → https://is.gd/RgVzz3 | 19:41 |
| kPa | Oh you mean in a legal sense. Perhaps. Technically I think it's the most feasable to get the most benefit from mass adoption--even with shaky ground that it would even be effective. | 19:42 |
| kPa | It has no chance of being effective without mass adoption. | 19:42 |
| LjL | so Italy has half the deaths it used to have today, and Spain, similarly... is it real, or is it just Sunday? | 19:42 |
| mefistofeles | kPa: ah, true | 19:42 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: probably sunday effect | 19:43 |
| LjL | also Spain's cases are actually spiking again if i look at offloop | 19:43 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, bit disappointing that media outlets would make it headlines, they should know it's a glitch | 19:43 |
| LjL | but well what do i expect | 19:43 |
| mefistofeles | heh yes | 19:43 |
| LjL | and yet, Milan and Turin are going relentlessly up | 19:45 |
| LjL | https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/en/#box_3 | 19:45 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: yes, this is somewhat expected for absolute numbers | 19:45 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, well the other provinces are not | 19:45 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: since testing is probably growing faster than new cases right now in many countries | 19:45 |
| mefistofeles | yes, testing varies from region to region | 19:46 |
| LjL | the region is Lombardy for Milan, just the same as most of the other provinces that were most affected. healthcare is handled at the regional level | 19:46 |
| LjL | so for Turin, i dunno, but Milan should be handled the same as Bergamo etc | 19:46 |
| mefistofeles | Spain does seem to be spiking up again, from last couple of days, sadly | 19:47 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, have you checked other than offloop? i have a feeling the graphs are glitchy there | 19:48 |
| LjL | probably just due to Covidly being glitchy itself | 19:48 |
| LjL | %cases Lombardy | 19:48 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In Lombardy, Italy, there are 69092 total cases (0.7% of the population) and 12740 deaths (18.4% of cases) as of 13 minutes ago. 196302 tests were performed (35.2% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Lombardy for time series data. | 19:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 17:39 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: US cases top 900,000, Birx says social distancing will last through summer → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 19:48 |
| LjL | i mean look at this https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Lombardy | 19:48 |
| LjL | that's certainly not the actual data Lombardy has been providing, not with those random flat parts | 19:49 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: you mean for the number of tests? | 19:50 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, that's just awful looking but no i mean the case count | 19:50 |
| LjL | also deaths | 19:50 |
| LjL | there are obvious glitches with many days in a row not having any | 19:50 |
| mefistofeles | ah that'sprobably a source thing | 19:51 |
| mefistofeles | localized data probably doesn't get updated as fast | 19:51 |
| mefistofeles | and test data even less so | 19:51 |
| LjL | source as in Covidly | 19:51 |
| LjL | i know those data are available | 19:51 |
| LjL | i listen to them every day | 19:51 |
| LjL | i can see them on other sites | 19:51 |
| LjL | also, i look at the deaths at https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy and i'm pretty sure the number wasn't +809 yesterday | 19:52 |
| LjL | it was always between 400 and 500 in the past few days | 19:52 |
| mefistofeles | there's a 267 just before the 809 | 19:53 |
| mefistofeles | yeah, but that's on the source | 19:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 17:49 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: NY to plan phased re-opening after hospitalization rates decline for two weeks → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 19:55 |
| ubLXI | lol: "99 second hand smartphones are transported in a handcart to generate virtual traffic jam in Google Maps.Through this activity, it is possible to turn a green street red which has an impact in the physical world by navigating cars on another route to avoid being stuck in traffic." - http://www.simonweckert.com/googlemapshacks.html | 19:55 |
| mefistofeles | ubLXI: heh | 19:56 |
| mefistofeles | hacking google maps | 19:56 |
| LjL | mefistofeles, yes if by "the source" you mean Covidly | 19:57 |
| LjL | not if by the source you mean Lombardy | 19:57 |
| LjL | or Italy in that case | 19:58 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: ah covidly, yes | 19:58 |
| LjL | thing is, Covidly is very extensive in the way it covers subnational units | 19:58 |
| LjL | but their data are pretty crap | 19:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 18:02 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: Spain's daily death toll drops below 300 as children allowed out for first time in weeks → https://is.gd/RgVzz3 | 20:10 |
| ubLXI | DP3T in comic form (produced in collaboration with Troncoso): https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/ | 20:10 |
| mefistofeles | ubLXI: nice one | 20:12 |
| LjL | ubLXI, hmm, nice but it didn't really let me understand the part i had not already understood, i.e. the "random gibberish" part where presumably there's a PRNG seed involved | 20:14 |
| LjL | PM Conte should be speaking on TV in about 5 minutes (so, maybe 30) | 20:15 |
| LjL | presumably announcing an end to the full lockdown | 20:15 |
| LjL | should be available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwooHHEwwI | 20:16 |
| LjL | also on RAI1 for those in or near Italy | 20:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 18:11 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: NY to plan phased re-opening after hospitalization rates decline for two weeks → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 20:17 |
| mefistofeles | ↑ good news | 20:18 |
| LjL | https://www.raiplay.it/dirette/rai1 | 20:18 |
| LjL | but most people are probably geoblocked from this | 20:18 |
| LjL | https://time.com/5826918/hokkaido-coronavirus-lockdown/ bit handwavy article though aside from some specific dates | 20:25 |
| LjL | %title | 20:25 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From time.com: Hokkaido Forced to Reinstate Lockdown After Coronavirus Returned | Time | 20:25 |
| LjL | --- | 20:26 |
| LjL | Thanks to the sacrifices we've done so far we've been able to contain diffusion of the pandemic. | 20:27 |
| mefistofeles | ah Japan, yes, it's spreading still pretty fast in Japan | 20:27 |
| LjL | This is a huge result considering in the acute phase there were moments where it seemed out of control. | 20:27 |
| mefistofeles | specially after olympics postponed xD | 20:27 |
| LjL | You all showed, north and south, strength, courage and sense of community. | 20:27 |
| LjL | Now "phase 2" will start, and we must understand that there is definitely a risk of cases going up again. | 20:27 |
| LjL | We must face this with method and rigor. It will be even more essential to respect social distancing. | 20:28 |
| LjL | If you love Italy you must avoid risking infections: you must respect distances of at least one meter, and that includes your relatives. | 20:28 |
| LjL | Keep in mind that scientists and experts tell us that at least 1 infected out of 4 happens within families. | 20:28 |
| LjL | We all want the country to re-open, but the only way to live with this virus is to avoid getting sick, and respecting social distancing. | 20:28 |
| LjL | If we don't respect these precautions, the curve will spike and may go out of control. We will lose more people, and we will have irreversible damage to our economy. | 20:29 |
| LjL | The government has a specific task in this phase: we must monitor the curve and do surveillance so as to make the curve not go up, and we must intervene rapidly in any cluster where the curve spikes up again. | 20:29 |
| LjL | We have set up a mechanism to keep the curve out of control, and I will tell you about it in a moment. | 20:29 |
| LjL | The next few months will have a very complex challenge for us to face. After many weeks of deprivation, I realize most of you want a relaxing of the restriction. | 20:30 |
| LjL | So we could take this new phase negatively: experience rage, against our family, against politicians, the government, the press... there are many options. | 20:30 |
| LjL | Or, we could make a difference choice: remove rage and resentment, and think about what each of us can do, the tasks each of us could perform. | 20:30 |
| LjL | In the next few weeks, in the next months, we must start rebuilding the country. | 20:31 |
| LjL | Let me assure you that the government will play its part. Where will be a time of reforms, and we will need to radically change all the wrong things in our country, and there weve been many wrong things for a long time. | 20:31 |
| LjL | We'll keep fighting in Europe, but also within Italy, to change all the things that aren't working. | 20:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 18:29 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: FASE 2 → https://is.gd/dlAiRu | 20:31 |
| LjL | Our plan will be put in place on May 4, but I am telling you now about it as you need to prepare and understand it. | 20:32 |
| LjL | I must thank our task force, Colao and the scientific committee. | 20:32 |
| LjL | In living with this virus, we'll have to adopt PPEs, and to this end, we asked Commissioner Arcuri to cap market prices of masks. | 20:32 |
| LjL | We don't want to see speculation on the market for this. | 20:32 |
| LjL | The government will also remove VAT [on masks?] in a coming lew. | 20:33 |
| LjL | In the latest European Council, we made a step ahead that seemed impossible just one week ago: recovery funds, Europe affirmed that the reaction to this pandemic must be quick and bold. | 20:33 |
| LjL | The initiatives that EU institutions had already taken is being enriched with this new tool, which will allow various countries, among which unfortunately Italy, to rebuild in solidarity. | 20:34 |
| LjL | It cannot be denied that if Italy had not stated some conditions from the start, we would never have obtained this result, which is a historic and fundamental result. | 20:34 |
| LjL | We must all be proud, as it was teamwork, and Italy as a whole solicited this response, and obtained it. | 20:34 |
| LjL | I am just the tip of the iceberg, but I can assure you that if we hadn't given this show of pride and character in Europe, I don't think I would have obtained this result. | 20:35 |
| LjL | We must then translate the political principle that was stated into a confirmation in terms of technical work, which will mean giving economic balance to this tool, avoid creating more debt, and most importantly, offer this aid immediately to the affected countries. | 20:36 |
| LjL | Before showing you the content of the law, I want to say we're working on economic measures: I know some of you are still unsatisfied, and we are aware of that, but the effort was extraordinary: INPS has taken 5000 additional requests for basic income in the past few months, 237000 sick leaves for families... | 20:36 |
| LjL | Some are still waiting, there are delays, for which I personally apologize. | 20:37 |
| LjL | But let me remind you it's 11000 requests, and usually this amount of requests would be processed in 5 years. Much of it has been handled in one month now instead. | 20:37 |
| LjL | The contribution of regions will be fundamental: some of them must hasten in providing their information, some have only provided it partially. | 20:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Peru: +2186 cases (now 27517) since 23 hours ago — Brazil: +832 cases (now 60311), +55 deaths (now 4117) since 2 hours ago — France: +612 cases (now 162100) since an hour ago | 20:38 |
| mefistofeles | woah, Peru | 20:38 |
| mefistofeles | !corona Peru | 20:38 |
| CoronaBot | Peru: Global rank: #16, cases: 27,517 (+2,186), fatalities: 728 (+28), active cases: 18,701, total recovered: 8,088, in a serious condition: 554. Mortality: 2.65%, case fatality rate: 8.26%, cases/1M: 835.0, deaths/1M: 22.0. Case rate: 3,683/24h, death rate: 66/24h. Tests: 232,747, tests/1M: 7,059. | 20:38 |
| LjL | And then companies: this countries won't restart its engine without focusing on companies. The new 55 billion law provides more funds to the most vulnerable worker categories, and those who already got a 600 euro bonus may have it renewed without even requesting it, with just a click. | 20:38 |
| LjL | In the next law we'll also be giving more aid to companies, a powerful aid, as our goal is not to have more people on welfare, but more people employed. | 20:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 18:36 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: RIGUARDO L'UNIONE EUROPEA E LA RECOVERY FUND → https://is.gd/aQi5Un | 20:39 |
| LjL | There will be direct funding of various types of companies, including small companies, and sectors that were hit hardest like tourism, which will not be able to recover from the damage they had and the stigma. | 20:39 |
| LjL | This sector is important for our GDP and it will certainly need economic aid from the government. | 20:39 |
| LjL | In parallel, we are preparing a law that I call "unlock the country": internationally, and in Europe, we are being watched, with esteem for the measures we have adopted, and I trust this will be one of them. | 20:40 |
| LjL | I trust that Italy can be admired during the coming phase too. | 20:40 |
| LjL | But as to the new measures since May 4, until May 18: | 20:40 |
| LjL | We will generally confirm the measures about social distancing and movement. | 20:41 |
| LjL | It will still only be possible to move within your region for valid reasons, like work and health. | 20:41 |
| LjL | We are only adding the possibility for specific movements to meet relatives. | 20:41 |
| LjL | We want to allow visiting family, but please pay attention, these must be done while respecting distances, using masks, and gatherings will still be banned. We are not allowing private parties or family reunions. | 20:42 |
| LjL | It is still forbidden to all people to move using public or private transport to a different region than the one they are currently in. | 20:42 |
| LjL | The exceptions are work, urgent needs, or health. Plus, we are allowing to go back to one's own domicile. | 20:42 |
| LjL | Now, wnyone who has fever higher than 37.5°C MUST stay at home: this is no longer a recommendation, they MUST stay at home and tell their GP. | 20:43 |
| LjL | Mayors can also temporarily close any areas where it does not seem possible to enforce the limitations. | 20:43 |
| LjL | We are allowing access to parks but only if measures are adopted to limit entry, and mayors can close these areas where this cannot be enforced. | 20:43 |
| LjL | About sports and physical activities: so far it has only been possible to have that in the vicinity of one's own domicile. Now it will be possible to move further away, but there will be a requirement to stay 2m from each other or 1m depending on the type of activity. | 20:44 |
| LjL | It will also be allowed to train professional athletes. This, again, will only be allowed while respecting the rules, and with no gathering, closed doors. | 20:45 |
| LjL | As to funerals, there has been a debate with the scientific committee. It has pained everyone, including me, to see so many deaths without even any ceremonies. | 20:45 |
| LjL | We will now allow funerals, ideally only outdoors, and with the presence of 15 people at most. | 20:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 18:43 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: NUOVO DPCM → https://is.gd/mLlNW4 | 20:46 |
| LjL | I also want to thank CEI and all people with religious sensibilities: we are talking about a fundamental right here, freedom of religion, and I understand how painful this is for many, but we must continue discussing with the scientific committee, and I hope we can allow more religious ceremonies in the future. | 20:46 |
| LjL | After May 4, takeaway restaurants will be able to open again. But please, nobody think there can be a gathering in front of bars and restaurants. You will have to queue, respect distances, and enter one at a time. Food will have to be consumed away, not close to the restaurant. | 20:47 |
| LjL | We are re-opening: manufacture, construction, and wholesale commerce needed for manufacture and construction. | 20:48 |
| LjL | This is an important step, but we are doing it in a well-articulated way. This re-opening can only happen if the affected companies respect safety protocols rigorously. We have signed a policy on April 24, and I want to thank the Unions and other organizations that subscribed this policy. So I'm telling companies, read this protocol immediately, because you will be allowed, even before May 4, to have activities to make your workplace comfort to these | 20:49 |
| LjL | policies. | 20:49 |
| LjL | Another critical thing is the movement of workers. So, public transport agencies must get ready to ensure respect of the safety policies. | 20:49 |
| LjL | And lastly we have a security protocol to ensure worker safety on construction sites. | 20:49 |
| LjL | With this set of rigorous protocols, we are close to relaxing the lockdown. But we want to keep the situation under control, and we have disposed a mechanism for the regions to cooperate with us in a very organized way, and inform us on a daily basis, constantly, about the curves in their areas, and they must highlight any critical issues. | 20:50 |
| LjL | Only under these conditions will the scientific committee be able to do its monitoring work. | 20:51 |
| LjL | We have parameters that the committee has determined that will immediately cause further lockdowns in limited areas. | 20:51 |
| LjL | From this point of view, I gave the salient details of the new measures. I just want to also announce that the government has planned some details that are still under discussion. We plan to re-open shops in the future, which is an accessory activity to manufacturing. | 20:52 |
| LjL | So, May 4 will have wholesale commerce re-opening, but on May 18 we will also allow individual shops to open. | 20:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 18:50 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: correzione : in aggiunta al delivery → https://is.gd/KXF1xH | 20:53 |
| LjL | On June 1 we plan to gradually re-open bars, restaurants, hairdresses, massage centers, and personal care activities like that. Of course some of these activities involve close contact with people, so we are taking some more days to decide what precautions will have to be applied. | 20:53 |
| LjL | We'll do what we can to also intervene on other activities, that I won't list in detail now, but think of beaches too... we want to allow a well-structured, cautious planning for the next holiday season. | 20:54 |
| LjL | I think I've said all I had to say. Questions now? | 20:54 |
| LjL | [Stream cut off] | 20:54 |
| LjL | Q: [inaudible] | 20:55 |
| LjL | A: I'm sorry, I cannot understand the question well. | 20:55 |
| LjL | Q: Can you hear me? | 20:55 |
| LjL | A: Audio quality is terrible. Let's try with the next question. | 20:55 |
| LjL | Q: We're entering "phase 2", finally. You told us about the three phases, and now, with all the unknowns and precautions, we'll inevitably start talking and hoping in a "phase 3". I wonder what the criteria will be to reach that: zero contagion? for how long? | 20:56 |
| LjL | A: Look, one phase at a time. For phase 3, to have no contagion we must absolutely have a vaccine or therapeutics. That cannot be planned now. We can only plan for phase 2, re-open the country safely, and the the duration of "living with" the virus depends not only on us but also on the scientific community, and for now they are unable to tell us when we'll leave the emergency for good. | 20:57 |
| LjL | Q: I'll stay on phase 2. In light of the fact many parents will go back to work but schools remain closed, won't many parents have huge issues? We know there are benefits, but they are not enough for many families, and we also can't count on grandparents, as they are the ones most at risk. | 20:58 |
| LjL | A: You want me to talk about school... it's an important topic, but I must say, we must expect schools to remain closed for the rest of the school year. We have talked about this with the scientific committee. It's very complicated to allow the right to education while protecting our health. All of our experts are telling us that if we re-opened schools, we'd have to expect a second wave in one or two weeks. | 20:59 |
| LjL | In addition, our school personnel has, on average, one of the highest ages in Europe. This would entail a risk that is not the kind of calculated risk we're aiming for. | 20:59 |
| LjL | The Minister of Education is working to resume school activities in September as best as possible. | 21:00 |
| LjL | Remote teaching is working well, on average. | 21:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 18:56 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Conte : Una fase per volta, è difficile programmare troppo in anticipo (riguardo quando attivare la fase '3') → https://is.gd/F5ymOZ | 21:00 |
| LjL | Some of the things that must be decided quickly are state exams: we have decided to allow state exams in person. | 21:00 |
| LjL | The government is also taking responsibility for a situation that has been going on for years: we are opening up for hiring 24000 teachers. This is vital to enhance our teaching offer. There are some doubts and perplexities by some, but I want to urge ourselves not to miss this chance. | 21:01 |
| LjL | The exam we have envisioned is very accessible and doesn't create high health risks. | 21:01 |
| LjL | If we gave this up, we'd lose many potential new teachers. | 21:02 |
| stinkpot | is it possible to have antibodies and still get it again? | 21:02 |
| LjL | As manufacture and construction re-open, there will be more workers going to their workplaces... We will definitely provide baby-sitting bonuses again, which is not the solution, but we'll try to create a solidarity network to aid families. | 21:02 |
| LjL | Q: As to sports activities, individual sports will be allowed on May 4, while team sports will be allowed on May 18... Are there plans for training that respectd social distancing? But in sports like soccer this isn't possible. | 21:03 |
| LjL | But I would also like to ask: in your opinion, would resuming the Series A Championship help send a message that normality is coming back? Or do you think in the current state of mind of Italians, this would not be appreciated? | 21:04 |
| LjL | A: You are asking this question to a soccer fan. Like many Italians, I found it weird at first that the championship might be halted. But I think all of us eventually understood there was no other possibilities. Minister Spadafora will work closely with our experts and sport associations, to define a way to restart some training, and after that, we will evaluate if the conditions exist to resume championships. Right now we are not able to ensure that. | 21:05 |
| LjL | Q: Sorry for the audio earlier. About self-certification: will they still be needed when moving between municipalities? And about going back to one's own domicile, will that also be allowed across regions? And, you know there has been intense debate within the majority in parliament about EU aid; are you going to propose a vote on the whole "package"? | 21:06 |
| LjL | A: We will allow people to go back to their homes regardless of which borders they cross. As to the Parliament vote, I will inform Parliament shortly on what is decided on an EU level, and then we will see if Parliament expresses itself with a resolution... What I'd like to ensure, if you were thinking about the EMS, if even that will be involved, you can be sure it will go through Parliament. | 21:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 19:01 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Scuole → https://is.gd/8ysIY4 | 21:07 |
| LjL | As to the question on self-certification: I've felt sorry, and I've followed the ironic memes on social media, I understand that these forms have been modified many times... but it's clear that as long as movement is limited, we cannot abandon this criterion: it's a simple instrument where you can declare where you are going and why. Until movement can only be allowed for specific regions, this will continue. | 21:08 |
| LjL | But this is indicative of the fact that this new law is not a "free for all": many millions of workers will go to their workplaces, and that is not a time when we can tell everyone they can go outside. | 21:08 |
| LjL | We understand this is very restrictive, and that for example, we can no longer only allow physical activity next to one's home... but there still has to be a specific reason for moving outside. | 21:09 |
| LjL | Thank you, and good night. | 21:09 |
| LjL | --- end | 21:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 19:10 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Un riepilogo delle misure nuove da ANSA → https://is.gd/SgO1Wy | 21:14 |
| LjL | <stinkpot> is it possible to have antibodies and still get it again? ← we don't know | 21:15 |
| stinkpot | sorry for interrupting earlier ljl | 21:17 |
| LjL | no problem | 21:17 |
| LjL | i just can't answer while i'm transcribing, others still can, but i try to catch up with anything afterwards | 21:17 |
| tinwhiskers | We don't know, but we do know that some people aren't developing antibodies after contracting the disease. It's more likely that the people who might be getting reinfected are the ones that didn't develop antibodies than that they developed antibodies that didn't work. | 21:18 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, yeah, that seems logical, but those who do not develop antibodies... they recovered anyway. or at least, we've looked at the ones who recovered | 21:18 |
| LjL | so there is an open question of how did they recover | 21:19 |
| stinkpot | are there any viruses which one can develop antibodies to, but which we can still get re-infected by? | 21:19 |
| stinkpot | is influenza like that? | 21:19 |
| stinkpot | maybe i should say 'antibodies for' instead of 'antibodies to' | 21:20 |
| tinwhiskers | Other parts of the immune system fought off the virus so no antibodies were formed, or they formed very weakly. | 21:20 |
| stinkpot | what part of the immune system needs to be activated in the viral fight in order to develop antibodies? | 21:21 |
| mefistofeles | stinkpot: there are | 21:21 |
| mefistofeles | to the antibodies and reinfection question | 21:21 |
| stinkpot | that makes sense somehow to me | 21:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 19:15 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Le Reazioni immediate dei politici → https://is.gd/ah6RqG | 21:21 |
| tinwhiskers | stinkpot: well, I'll do my usual Derek Lowe quote, "The total amount [of antibodies] in the blood (the titer) varied quite a bit between individuals – notably, younger patients had far lower levels than older ones did, which raises the question of how immune they really are. In fact, ten of those young patients had no detectable neutralizing antibodies at all (!) and overall, about 30% of the entire cohort failed to develop a high | 21:25 |
| tinwhiskers | antibody titer (although they had similar disease progression before their recovery). This presumably means that other parts of the immune system played a greater role in clearing the virus, which is fine – except that those long-lasting antibodies and memory B cells are the key to staying immune." | 21:25 |
| tinwhiskers | I think it explains it quite well personally. | 21:25 |
| tinwhiskers | it's a pretty old piece now, but, https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/08/covid-19-antibody-update-for-april-8 | 21:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 19:22 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: Spain's daily death toll drops below 300 as children allowed out for first time in weeks → https://is.gd/RgVzz3 | 21:29 |
| danielp3344 | %data Maryland | 21:29 |
| Brainstorm | danielp3344: In Maryland, US, there are 18581 total cases (0.3% of the population) and 910 deaths (4.9% of cases) as of 10 minutes ago. 89123 tests were performed (20.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Maryland for time series data. | 21:29 |
| mefistofeles | tinwhiskers: I don't thik much has changed since that post, tbh | 21:29 |
| mefistofeles | *think | 21:29 |
| tinwhiskers | fair | 21:29 |
| friedbat | i wonder how much of all this is due to poor serology test kits | 21:32 |
| tinwhiskers | as do we all :-) | 21:32 |
| tinwhiskers | lack of random sampling unfortunately means we don't know | 21:32 |
| mefistofeles | Münich/Bavaria is performing a really large scale study, they should be getting first results this week, not sure they will publish them immediately, though | 21:33 |
| mefistofeles | because the study will run for many months | 21:34 |
| tinwhiskers | early results are always nice for us rubberneckers but not necessarily a good idea. | 21:34 |
| tinwhiskers | bummer | 21:35 |
| friedbat | have there been any studies from us or germany showing low titers in recovered patients? | 21:35 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: Not that I heard of | 21:36 |
| mefistofeles | it's still too soon, I think | 21:36 |
| friedbat | you're probably right | 21:36 |
| friedbat | do they have estimates for median seroconverstion lags? | 21:37 |
| friedbat | seroconversion* | 21:37 |
| tinwhiskers | I did see something on that | 21:37 |
| tinwhiskers | hrm | 21:37 |
| tinwhiskers | dang, I have no idea how I'll find that again | 21:38 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: from the Chinese papers it's like 11 days for 50%, iirc | 21:38 |
| mefistofeles | or 14 days,actually | 21:39 |
| friedbat | mefistofeles: aha, thanks. | 21:39 |
| tinwhiskers | at the time it stood out because there was some comment about how the findings of low or no antibodies were incorrect and that by 30 days nearly 100% of patients had in fact developed antibodies. The graphs inside showed very close to 100% after 2 weeks though. | 21:39 |
| tinwhiskers | I think it was 99% by 30 days in the paper I read. I struck a chord because it disagreed with what the comment I quoted from Derek Lowe above was saying. | 21:41 |
| mefistofeles | tinwhiskers: I think there's no disagreement | 21:41 |
| tinwhiskers | not, entirely, but... kinda | 21:41 |
| mefistofeles | that 100% is for the ones that showed antibodies, but still like 6% (?) didn't show | 21:42 |
| yx[m] | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6j7o1pLBw | 21:42 |
| mefistofeles | %t | 21:42 |
| Brainstorm | mefistofeles: From www.youtube.com: Dr. Erickson COVID-19 Briefing, Pt. 2 - YouTube | 21:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 19:37 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Appena disponibile verrà condivisa il DPCM → https://is.gd/SPRq6r | 21:43 |
| tinwhiskers | My interpretation of the Lowe statement is that that explains why we get some reinfections - some people don't develop antibodies. However, if the other paper is right and we're basically getting 100% of people developing antibodies by day 30 then we shouldn't be seeing more reinfections unless the antibodies are not working. So they are at odds to me in that regard. | 21:43 |
| friedbat | there are multiple things that could explain this though | 21:43 |
| tinwhiskers | yes, sure | 21:44 |
| friedbat | and because the possibility for re-infection is one of those hugely dramatic ideas that could cause re-panic | 21:44 |
| yx[m] | %data Poland | 21:44 |
| Brainstorm | yx[m]: In all areas, Poland, there are 11617 total cases (0.0% of the population) and 535 deaths (4.6% of cases) as of 18 minutes ago. 278994 tests were performed (4.2% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.5% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected), and less than 19.1% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Poland for time series data. | 21:44 |
| tinwhiskers | for sure | 21:44 |
| mefistofeles | tinwhiskers: hmm I didn't get that from Derek's post, he just said that questioning immunity was reasonable but he does say that it's probably not antibodies but other things clearing the virus | 21:44 |
| friedbat | we should probably not buy into it from one or two studies that likely used crap test kits on fewer than 200 people | 21:44 |
| mefistofeles | for the younger patients | 21:45 |
| tinwhiskers | mefistofeles: yeah, and he also says those people who are not developing antibodies are likely not getting long-term immunity | 21:45 |
| mefistofeles | yes | 21:45 |
| tinwhiskers | hence, the avenue for reinfection | 21:46 |
| mefistofeles | ok, I see... but still if you get antibodies they don't necessarily last long | 21:46 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, or you don't get them at all | 21:47 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, I guess it should be even possible that for those cases that you didn't get them at all, that whatever the other mechanisms are for clearing the virus to be there even longer than the entibodies for those that did develop them | 21:47 |
| mefistofeles | but yeah, still pretty speculative | 21:48 |
| tinwhiskers | perhaps whatever part of your immune system that fought off the virus will do the same thing again, yes | 21:48 |
| friedbat | are these people who allegedly don't make antibodies getting ill or are they the asymptomatic/mild crowd? | 21:48 |
| bree33 | some people actually have a gland that produces lysol in their bodies that's why | 21:48 |
| genera | haha | 21:48 |
| CrashandBurn | lmao | 21:48 |
| CrashandBurn | I wish I had the Lysol gland, I'd save so much money | 21:49 |
| CrashandBurn | "dont worry hun, ill just secrete into this bottle for you" | 21:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 19:45 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Italia - Fase 2 → https://is.gd/YZOnxB | 21:50 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: they have the same trajectory as others | 21:51 |
| mefistofeles | well, similar trajectories | 21:51 |
| friedbat | mefistofeles: something smells fishy | 21:51 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: well, it's surprising indeed | 21:51 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +4986 cases (now 980784), +153 deaths (now 55094) since 2 hours ago — Illinois, US: +2126 cases (now 43903), +59 deaths (now 1933) since 23 hours ago — Pennsylvania, US: +1011 cases (now 42708) since 19 hours ago | 21:53 |
| mefistofeles | btw, you can see how the "epicenter" is apparently moving towards latin america, from the bot'supdates | 21:54 |
| mefistofeles | not that last one, specifically, but overall | 21:54 |
| friedbat | brazil? | 21:56 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: Brazil and Peru, from what I saw today | 21:58 |
| mefistofeles | Ecuador also | 21:58 |
| friedbat | Ecuador had a localized epicenter some weeks ago, right? | 22:01 |
| l0ndoner | no coronavirus patients left in its hospitals.I love China | 22:02 |
| friedbat | though maybe the absolute case count wasn't high. It probably dosn't take as much to overwhelm the hospitals in Latin America than elsewhere. | 22:02 |
| friedbat | l0ndoner: and they also didn't kill anyone in the Tianamen Square protests | 22:02 |
| friedbat | and that train that they buried to hide the evidence of the crash actually was hit by lightning as they claimed | 22:03 |
| tinwhiskers | China closed down their temporary hospitals some time ago because they didn't have enough cases to keep them open. | 22:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Italy Live* at 20:01 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: A domani → https://is.gd/kto9x5 | 22:04 |
| l0ndoner | China is miraculously cured I love them dearly. They never had a curve it was more a gentle line | 22:04 |
| friedbat | tinwhiskers: and i have a bridge to sell you | 22:05 |
| tinwhiskers | The new cases they are getting are all outside Hubei now so it' | 22:05 |
| tinwhiskers | s no surprise they no longer need those hospitals | 22:05 |
| mefistofeles | according to numbers they did a pretty effective move on stopping the spread, with very srict measures | 22:05 |
| mefistofeles | now, they have to be careful with importing new cases | 22:05 |
| l0ndoner | Once all this is over, I hope the WHO and the Chinese government receive a joint Nobel Prize for fictional literature. | 22:06 |
| friedbat | the way they "stooped the spread" is by cooking the numbers | 22:06 |
| l0ndoner | thats all I'm going to say | 22:06 |
| tinwhiskers | -vox | 22:06 |
| friedbat | and by disappearing all the scientists who were reporting facts | 22:06 |
| l0ndoner | ^ | 22:06 |
| tinwhiskers | friedbat: take it elsewhere | 22:06 |
| Technique | The US is killing itself | 22:13 |
| Technique | all the politicians who dont understand how technology works cant see that all the money they print and hand out to business still ultimatly goes right into the big 10 companies accounts and stays there and just grows, amazon, google, microsoft, etc. | 22:15 |
| Technique | now with servers all being cloud in azure or amazon or goofle | 22:15 |
| Technique | they get all the cash and then have the writeoffs so we never will get out of the mess | 22:16 |
| Technique | no more IT workers because everything is cloud servers where 1 person manages 20 data centers at once now | 22:16 |
| l0ndoner | You got your cheque go spend it, moan to someone who cares | 22:17 |
| tinwhiskers | Technique: we're trying to keep the main channels for discussion about more empirical topics, and use ##coronavirus-vox for political opinions. | 22:17 |
| l0ndoner | you started another channel? | 22:17 |
| l0ndoner | though you guys were against | 22:17 |
| l0ndoner | thought | 22:18 |
| tinwhiskers | that channel has existed as long as this | 22:18 |
| mefistofeles | l0ndoner: I don't endorse any other channel, fwiw | 22:18 |
| mefistofeles | if anything I suggest to stay out of them | 22:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 20:09 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: Spain's daily death toll drops below 300 as children allowed out for first time in weeks → https://is.gd/RgVzz3 | 22:18 |
| tinwhiskers | well, either way, we're trying to avoid political opinion topics here so there's your option if you want to continue down that line. | 22:19 |
| l0ndoner | UK hasn't used hardly any of the nightingale hospitals. Only pointing out because someone said China closed all their temporary hospitals... So either the modelling was wrong or the world dodged a bullet | 22:23 |
| euod[m] | or china is lying. | 22:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health at 20:20 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: British PM Johnson returns to Downing Street, NY to eventually re-open in phases → https://is.gd/yHN7zl | 22:25 |
| Technique | <l0ndoner> I didnt get a check, I actually pay taxes and make money so i wouldnt expect you to understand | 22:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 20:25 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: Spain's daily death toll drops below 300 as children allowed out for first time in weeks → https://is.gd/RgVzz3 | 22:33 |
| ap4lmtree | the word health organization said they are not sure if recovered coronavirus people are immune from reinfection. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/25/844939777/no-evidence-that-recovered-covid-19-patients-are-immune-who-says | 22:37 |
| ap4lmtree | if it is true that people are not immune, then would a vaccine on the other hand be able to make them immune? | 22:37 |
| mefistofeles | ap4lmtree: yes, we have been discussing that for some time now :) | 22:37 |
| mefistofeles | ap4lmtree: yes a vaccine could immunize people, sure | 22:38 |
| ap4lmtree | how could it immune people when antibodies oculd not? | 22:38 |
| ap4lmtree | the vaccine works by stimulating antibodies to develop | 22:38 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +2514 cases (now 983298), +239 deaths (now 55333) since 52 minutes ago — Massachusetts, US: +1590 cases (now 54938), +169 deaths (now 2899) since a day ago — Brazil: +1577 cases (now 61888), +88 deaths (now 4205) since 2 hours ago | 22:38 |
| mefistofeles | ap4lmtree: vaccines can use other things | 22:38 |
| mefistofeles | and commonly use other things | 22:38 |
| ap4lmtree | vaccines work by helping the body develop antibodies, what other vaccine methods are you talking about/ | 22:39 |
| ap4lmtree | if peopele arne't immune with recovered antibodies, then a vaccine would not work | 22:39 |
| mefistofeles | ap4lmtree: ok, I have to clarify because I answered incorrectly. It's not as if antibodies are not making them immune, it's that there's a significant amount of cases where people recovered without developing antivodies | 22:44 |
| mefistofeles | *antibodies | 22:44 |
| mefistofeles | and even more people not showing high counts of antibodies | 22:44 |
| mefistofeles | so there may be other mechanisms involved other than just antibodies | 22:44 |
| ap4lmtree | i see | 22:44 |
| mefistofeles | but still, over 60% (from studies) did develop a high count of antibodies and are thought to be immune... for how long? who knows... | 22:45 |
| mefistofeles | I think that's the consensus | 22:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 20:37 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus US live: Maryland's Republican governor concerned over Trump's 'mixed messages' → https://is.gd/An3qCt | 22:47 |
| LjL | if the other paper is right and we're basically getting 100% of people developing antibodies by day 30 then we shouldn't be seeing more reinfections unless the antibodies are not working. So they are at odds to me in that regard. ← tinwhiskers, or... there is the possibility the virus is hiding somewhere antibodies can't reach, and what we're sometimes seeing is relapses, not reinfections | 22:48 |
| tinwhiskers | yes. good point | 22:48 |
| LjL | and this idea to me, which honestly has always seemed very real to me although it's not exceptionally mainstream, causes me more re-panic than re-infection does | 22:48 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: I think the graph for the other paper was for those who developed antibodies, but they still claim an amount of the tested did not | 22:49 |
| mefistofeles | so I think they may have discared those assuming bad sample gathering or something (?) | 22:49 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: do you have the link? | 22:50 |
| mefistofeles | ah I got it | 22:51 |
| LjL | i think i messed up the links and linked to the same paper twice | 22:51 |
| LjL | MOSQUITO | 22:55 |
| LjL | first of the year | 22:55 |
| LjL | aaaaaah | 22:55 |
| mefistofeles | LjL: ok, no, I don't know where I got that idea | 22:56 |
| mefistofeles | it's 100% of the complete set of patients | 22:56 |
| mefistofeles | I vaguely remember getting that 6% number for no present antibodies from two different sources so I assumed it was this as well | 22:56 |
| mefistofeles | I guess the other study that Derek references can be explained by not having enough time | 22:57 |
| mefistofeles | he missed this one, probably | 22:58 |
| LjL | well all the alleged reinfections in Korea will have to be explained one way or another, i don't think they'll just turn out to be a fluke | 22:58 |
| mefistofeles | oh wait, I found it | 23:00 |
| mefistofeles | The reason for the negative antibody findings in 12 patients might due to the lack of blood samples at the later stage of illnes | 23:00 |
| mefistofeles | from the same article | 23:00 |
| mefistofeles | 10 from the Derek's referenced article | 23:00 |
| mefistofeles | and about the same patient number | 23:00 |
| tinwhiskers | mefistofeles: ah. interesting. thanks | 23:01 |
| mefistofeles | I was actually going crazy trying to figure why it was so clear for me | 23:01 |
| mefistofeles | xD | 23:01 |
| mefistofeles | phew | 23:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network * at 20:53 UTC: ljl-covid: Fix wrong link → https://is.gd/QFiOi2 | 23:01 |
| tinwhiskers | so are we agreeing that most evidence shows that pretty much everyone does develop antibodies given time? | 23:02 |
| mefistofeles | pretty much meaning around 94% ? | 23:02 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, that low. | 23:02 |
| tinwhiskers | ok | 23:02 |
| tinwhiskers | then no | 23:02 |
| mefistofeles | I mean, it can be what they claim about the blood samples, but I find it very unlikely given that two independent studies find around the same percentage of people without antibodies | 23:04 |
| tinwhiskers | ok | 23:05 |
| mefistofeles | Moreover, a higher titer of Ab was independently associated with a worse clinical classification (p=0.006). | 23:06 |
| LjL | ugh that government note | 23:06 |
| mefistofeles | that's also in agreement between both, I think | 23:06 |
| LjL | The Prime Minister takes note of the communication of the CEI and confirms what was already anticipated in the press conference by the President Conte. In the next few days, a protocol will be studied which will allow the faithful to participate in liturgical celebrations as soon as possible in conditions of maximum security. | 23:06 |
| LjL | only two forces powerful enough in italy to lobby the government to stop lockdowns | 23:06 |
| LjL | football, and catholics | 23:07 |
| LjL | fuck them both, honestly | 23:07 |
| mefistofeles | :/ | 23:07 |
| LjL | going to Mass isn't "necessary" | 23:07 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 23:07 |
| LjL | i understand resuming funerals | 23:07 |
| LjL | that was just sad | 23:07 |
| LjL | but you can pray god at home | 23:07 |
| Arsanerit | in Saxony they now allow services with at most 15 people, the newspaper I subscribe to commented "so all will be as before" | 23:08 |
| LjL | 15 people is also the limit now for funerals here | 23:09 |
| LjL | except i'm afraid mass tends to gather more than 15 people in italy | 23:09 |
| mefistofeles | song* | 23:10 |
| nb | LjL, my church has moved their services online | 23:11 |
| nb | for now | 23:11 |
| nb | so you can watch on Facebook live and youtube | 23:11 |
| LjL | yes "streamed" mass has been done a lot in italy | 23:11 |
| Arsanerit | IKEA has started video-call furniture sales advise here. | 23:11 |
| LjL | and yes, it will be fine for most people, except... for old people who can't use computers | 23:11 |
| LjL | who guess what? are the ones who should STAY HOME anyway | 23:11 |
| Arsanerit | How much longer will he have old people who can't use computers? PC's have been around for 40 years now. | 23:12 |
| q[m]2 | Sup freenode bruhs | 23:12 |
| mefistofeles | hello q[m]2 | 23:12 |
| mefistofeles | Arsanerit: depens on the country, I'm fairly young and still didn'g get to use a computer until high school | 23:13 |
| mefistofeles | *didn't | 23:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews Live* at 21:09 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Axios su Twitter: "The CDC has added six new coronavirus symptoms to its website: • Chills • Repeated shaking with chills • Muscle pain • Headaches • Sore throat • Loss of taste or smell https://t.co/OSzOLYNqsb" → https://is.gd/iuSruG | 23:15 |
| Arsanerit | Since my grandmother died in 1995, I've not known anyone without a computer. | 23:18 |
| Arsanerit | That includes people over 80. | 23:18 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, 40 years ago there were barely any PCs | 23:20 |
| LjL | anyway knowing how to use a PC say 30 years ago doesn't translate to being fluent with doing a Skype mass now | 23:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Guardian at 21:25 UTC: Coronavirus outbreak: Coronavirus live news: Spain's daily death toll drops below 300 as children allowed out for first time in weeks → https://is.gd/RgVzz3 | 23:37 |
| hirogen | wow | 23:47 |
| hirogen | below 300 that is huge | 23:47 |
| hirogen | for me | 23:47 |
| LjL | it was below 300 in italy too | 23:48 |
| LjL | honestly it's just lazy sunday data to me | 23:48 |
| LjL | let's see if it remains below 300 for the next two days | 23:48 |
| LjL | then it'll mean something | 23:48 |
| friedbat | exactly. i'd caution against celebrating weekend data too much | 23:49 |
| friedbat | it could just be lower reporting on weekends | 23:49 |
| LjL | there are definitely weekly ups and downs visible in the reports from some countries. i don't think i had noticed this for italy's deaths data but i also don't think it's sensible to expect deaths to suddenly halve | 23:51 |
| friedbat | i've been reading more articles recently about skin manifestations, "corona toes" and other obvious skin rashes | 23:54 |
| friedbat | any docs have credible theories on how corona attacks the skin? | 23:54 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: oh yes, many of skin problems with corona | 23:54 |
| mefistofeles | even like dark black marks | 23:55 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: last clinical briefing in twiv podcast mentions that | 23:55 |
| friedbat | interesting. what's twiv? | 23:55 |
| mefistofeles | this week in virology | 23:55 |
| friedbat | ok, thanks. | 23:55 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: do mind that it's not the last podcast | 23:56 |
| friedbat | ok | 23:56 |
| mefistofeles | friedbat: check for Griffin, he's the doctor from NYC that they commonly get for these briefings | 23:56 |
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