freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-03-02

sokanHi. I was wondering if devuan supports all .deb packages and things that are in debian repo. For example something like: https://packages.debian.org/stretch/pcsx201:02
sokan(provided that the packages don't require specific services tied to systemd that is ofc)01:02
sixwheeledbeastyes01:03
debdogany package except https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt01:03
sokannice01:04
sokanthankd debdog :)01:04
sokanthanks*01:04
debdoghaha, thankd, nice typo01:04
debdogprolly freudian01:05
sokanyeap :P01:05
sokanWas thinking just that right now01:05
sokanGoing to get me a refurbished laptop and can't be bothered to go and install gentoo. Devu1 is the first things that came to mind as an alternative. Glad that I'll probably have 100% package coverage. As long as I figure out how to use apt-get S:01:07
debdog...or aptitude, for that matter01:07
sokanindeed01:09
sokanlerning curve is hard with devuan i hope01:09
debdogmasochist?01:09
sokanisn't*01:10
debdogahh, hehe01:10
sokanI don't even want to start thinking Freudian now hehe01:10
debdoglol01:10
sokananyway. Thanks for the info :)01:11
debdogany previous encounters with linux based distros? if so, which?01:11
sokangentoo01:12
sokanarch and a bit mint before that01:12
debdogoh, ok01:12
debdoghmm, there is a systemd-free arch....01:12
sokanwell, I don't like pacman and that AUR thingy so much01:12
debdogok01:12
sokanI want something that will be installed and just work :P01:13
debdogoy-vey01:13
sokanminimal tinkering and maintenance from me01:13
sokanthought devu1 was right up that alley01:14
debdoggood thing, most ubuntu and ebian howtos work for devuan as well01:14
debdog*debian01:14
sokanThat's a big plus01:14
sokanwhen the times comes I'll ask for more info here :)01:18
sokanoh01:18
sokanopenrc works on latest release eh?01:18
debdogit should™, never tried it myself, though01:20
debdogthere should be an option in the installer01:20
sokanokey doke01:20
debdogprolly do expert install01:20
debdog*have to do01:20
sokanmight as well stick with default option01:21
sokanI won't be writing any service files anyway hehe01:21
specingopenrc seems to work01:28
specingAhhh, another Gentoo refugee ;)01:28
hdb2long-time debian user here...installed devuan today for the first time, and so far so good - looks great, behaves exactly like one would expect.  great work!02:19
Xenguy^^ Huh, FSF member with the kudos, cool02:58
MinceRpft03:23
XenguyWhatevsies ; -)05:07
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Leanderthat's it guys, I'm switching as of now08:44
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se7enI recently have added a display of the calendar program to my terminal window10:28
se7enSo it opens a calendar file every time I open a new terminal10:28
se7enI continue to see holidays and things I never knew10:28
se7enBut a lot of the entries seem fake. I look them up and can find no information10:28
se7enAnyone know anything about this10:28
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se7enLike what the hell is this10:29
se7enMar 02  Blackthorn winds (New England) (Does anyone know what this is?)10:29
se7enThey added the note "Does anyone know what this is"10:29
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sixwheeledbeast+M anyone?11:47
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jyrihuoh, kb anyone?11:56
jyri! me needs ops11:56
infobotmoi?11:56
g0zzyif [ -d /run/systemd/system ]; then exit 0 fi That's in /etc/cron.daily/apt-compat. What follows (for Devuan) is slightly worrying. It looks like unattended-upgrades might not be run if someone powers up and then powers off fairly soon (within 30 minutes). Does any of you know about this?12:07
KatolaZg0zzy: what are you talking about exactly?12:11
g0zzyThat (afaics) is what kicks off unattended upgrades12:12
KatolaZg0zzy: how is this relatev with unattended upgrades?12:12
KatolaZ~related12:12
g0zzyafaics its what starts them12:13
g0zzys/its/it's12:13
nktech1135pick up your weapons and fight for the white race https://media.8ch.net/file_store/5b864d8b81a3777fc80a735ef5ac83c687df4df5a1560c8705cc0ee6b08ea13a.png12:13
g0zzyThat script must be relatively new as it checks for systemd12:14
KatolaZg0zzy: that's exactly the opposite12:15
KatolaZif systemd is running, it will be in charge of running unattended upgrades, apparently12:15
g0zzySorry - don't follow12:16
KatolaZthat check tests if systemd is running12:16
KatolaZif it's not, the script does not exit...12:16
KatolaZplease read the comment before that test in apt-compat12:16
luyikei7pick up your weapons and fight for the white race https://media.8ch.net/file_store/5b864d8b81a3777fc80a735ef5ac83c687df4df5a1560c8705cc0ee6b08ea13a.png12:17
g0zzyLet's just leave the comments for now if we can. I'll tell you why in a minute12:17
KatolaZg0zzy: sorry for asking, but is it clear to you what '[ -f FILE ]' means?12:17
KatolaZor [ -d DIR ] in this case?12:18
specinggolinux: +r please12:18
g0zzyYes. It mean if the directory /run/systemd/system exists, exit the script12:18
KatolaZso12:18
nebuchadnezzar8pick up your weapons and fight for the white race https://media.8ch.net/file_store/5b864d8b81a3777fc80a735ef5ac83c687df4df5a1560c8705cc0ee6b08ea13a.png12:19
g0zzySo that script only runs thereafter for non-systemd systems12:19
KatolaZyep12:19
KatolaZso why should this break unattended upgrades in Devuan?12:19
g0zzyOK. You had me worried. I thought you were saying the opposite at first ;)12:20
KatolaZo_O12:20
KatolaZ12:08 < g0zzy> if [ -d /run/systemd/system ]; then exit 0 fi That's in /etc/cron.daily/apt-compat. What follows (for Devuan) is12:20
KatolaZ               slightly worrying. It looks like unattended-upgrades might not be run if someone powers up and then powers off fairly12:20
KatolaZ               soon (within 30 minutes). Does any of you know about this?12:20
g0zzyOK, i'll get there12:21
KatolaZg0zzy: it was you who said that unattended upgrade might not be run...12:21
KatolaZthis is totally unrelated to the amount of time between boot and reboot12:21
g0zzyHave a look at random_sleep12:21
KatolaZyeah, so what?12:21
KatolaZthis is unrelated to systemd still12:22
g0zzy(and note btw the first comment thereafter, that makes no sense [it's already been called])12:22
KatolaZand IIRC, that has been there for years12:22
KatolaZg0zzy: could you please make your point clear?12:22
g0zzyHow can it have been? It's checking for systemd12:23
KatolaZ-_-12:23
KatolaZthe REST of the script has been there FOR YEARS12:23
g0zzyOh OK12:23
KatolaZthe check is there for systemd where systemd is actually running, AFAICT12:23
KatolaZthe logic is simple: if there is systemd, let it handle apt.daily12:24
KatolaZelse, do whatever you have been doing12:24
KatolaZ-> I can't see any breakage there12:24
g0zzyWell, the sleep could be up to 30 minutes12:24
KatolaZunless /run/systemd/system exists in a Devuan installation12:24
KatolaZg0zzy: how is this related to the check ?12:25
KatolaZo_O12:25
g0zzy/usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily won't be run until he sleep finishes12:25
KatolaZg0zzy: that script is run ONCE A DAY12:25
KatolaZanyway12:25
KatolaZif your pc is up only for 20 minutes, it won't be run anyway12:26
KatolaZapt-compat is inside cron.daily12:26
g0zzyPrecisely the problem12:26
KatolaZg0zzy: this has nothing to do with systemd12:26
g0zzyLots of my clients use their laptops in exactly that way12:26
KatolaZcan we agree on that?12:26
KatolaZgreat, change the script to not sleep12:27
KatolaZ:)12:27
g0zzyWell if what you said before (it's been there for ages) then yes12:27
g0zzyErr, no ;) I shouldn't need to change it should i?12:27
KatolaZg0zzy: do you have a point?12:28
KatolaZand, what is it?12:28
g0zzyI guess my point is that unattended-upgrades are broken for my users12:28
g0zzy# ensure we don't do this on battery12:29
KatolaZg0zzy: unattended-upgrade would not be running anyway if your users' uptime is normally 20 minutes12:29
g0zzyThat also makes no sense. (random_sleep has already been called)12:29
KatolaZbecause that script is called by anacron12:29
KatolaZand it's called at 17 minutes every hour12:29
g0zzySo we can agree maybe my  point?12:30
KatolaZno12:30
KatolaZI still don't get it12:30
KatolaZsorry12:30
KatolaZthat's the default which is thought to be working in most cases12:30
KatolaZif you need a different policy, you should implement it12:31
g0zzyOK. With some of my users their pattern of usage is: power up laptop. check email. power down. 15 minutes at most12:31
KatolaZthat's your problem g0zzy :)12:31
g0zzyCan you tell me about when cron.daily is run?12:32
KatolaZg0zzy: look into /etc/crontab12:32
g0zzyOK.12:32
KatolaZunless you have anacron, it is run once a day12:32
KatolaZif you have anacron installed and running, then look into /etc/anacrontab12:33
g0zzyDo you also agree that the check_power seems to make no sense?12:33
KatolaZno g0zzy12:33
KatolaZit does make sense12:33
KatolaZbecause you might not want to run upgrades while on batter12:34
g0zzyYou mean by "this" they mean "Run /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily"12:34
KatolaZ~battery12:34
gnarfaceg0zzy: why not launch the update job from the window manager?12:34
gnarfacefrom a session login script12:34
KatolaZg0zzy: I still fail to see your point, I am sorry12:34
g0zzyI can't really rely on non-techies to do that12:34
KatolaZthen g0zzy *you* as a sysadmin should take care of that12:35
g0zzyOK, i need to some way of handling that12:37
g0zzyI can't remember now but is the last line of that in ASCII still exec /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily ?12:37
g0zzyCan't be surely?12:38
KatolaZg0zzy: the script in ascii is *identical*12:39
g0zzyOK12:39
KatolaZjust check by yourself12:39
KatolaZdownload the deb12:39
KatolaZand extract it12:40
KatolaZ(use 'ar x' )12:40
KatolaZand then look into the data.tar.xz12:40
g0zzyYes, i had the qcow image running last night but couldn't remember how it ends12:40
KatolaZg0zzy: I am telling you, I have checked12:41
KatolaZand the script is the same12:41
KatolaZeven the systemd check is there12:41
g0zzyI believe you :)12:41
KatolaZit might also be the same in Jessie12:41
g0zzyJust a pity that it means for me that unattended is broken12:42
KatolaZg0zzy: nope, mate12:42
KatolaZit's that you must configure the thing to work on your specific use case12:42
KatolaZwhich is indeed peculiar, if you ask me12:43
KatolaZ:)12:43
g0zzyI've one guy (so far) on Devuan. I installed unattended. I bet his system has never been updated12:43
KatolaZg0zzy: that might be a blessing :P12:44
g0zzyNot really - these are ultra non-techies old folks12:44
KatolaZg0zzy: again, you can fix it easily12:44
* g0zzy shouldn't really have to rewrite the package to get it working. 12:44
KatolaZjust change the apt-compat script12:44
KatolaZend of story12:44
KatolaZyou don't have to rewrite the package12:45
KatolaZyou have to edit the apt-compat script12:45
g0zzyI might leave the power check in12:45
KatolaZg0zzy: that's your decision12:45
KatolaZit's your policy12:46
gnarfacethe window manager should have some sort of way to set programs to auto-start12:46
gnarfacesome sort of startups menu12:46
gnarfaceit is probably something you can alter for them remotely simply by distributing a file12:47
g0zzyGnarface, that's an idea. But remote no - unattended is *because* remote is problematic12:48
g0zzyI've used a wicd script before12:48
g0zzyThanks for your thoughts. Got to go and wash up ;)12:49
KatolaZbbl12:49
trevnorris4pick up your weapons and fight for the white race https://media.8ch.net/file_store/5b864d8b81a3777fc80a735ef5ac83c687df4df5a1560c8705cc0ee6b08ea13a.png12:54
Guest76770pick up your weapons and fight for the white race https://media.8ch.net/file_store/5b864d8b81a3777fc80a735ef5ac83c687df4df5a1560c8705cc0ee6b08ea13a.png12:59
LIndividupick up your weapons and fight for the white race https://media.8ch.net/file_store/5b864d8b81a3777fc80a735ef5ac83c687df4df5a1560c8705cc0ee6b08ea13a.png13:13
KatolaZis there a chanop to set +R please?13:14
specingthere are 10 of them, all afk13:18
specingcc jaromil coagen  MinceR Centurion_Dan buZz parazyd13:19
Centurion_Dano/13:20
specingI sacrificed myself for the greater good13:23
specingI'm surprised I was able to reconnect after being killed13:23
specingCenturion_Dan: can you set +r on the channel?13:24
Centurion_Danyeah, when I figure out how...13:26
Centurion_Danpm me if you know...13:26
specing /mode +r13:29
g0zzySo, back to the unattended-upgrades issue - what would you do in my stated case?13:55
gnarfacetell them to leave the thing on longer to update13:57
g0zzy;)13:59
sokanAnyone has any idea if I'll have troubles with wifi by installing dev1 in a T430?14:00
g0zzyKatolaZ: Why did you say that it might be a good thing that my guy's Devuan box has never updated? Have there been "issues"?14:01
g0zzygnarface: you know - i think that just might be the correct solution ;)14:02
g0zzyPity though - it just lends credibility to the "Linux is not desktop-ready" crew14:10
gnarfacenothing would stop them from destroying the system by interrupting an upgrade to shut down anyway14:20
gnarfaceand it's not like windows or mac could either14:20
gnarfacecould survive that or "handle it" sanely, that is14:20
g0zzyActually i'm not sure that's correct. I've had people power down during a manual upgrade by me. Worst that happened is manual removal of a lock file was necessary prior to re-running the update14:24
gnarfaceit won't even always break14:28
gnarfacebut just because it didn't break obviously didn't mean it didn't break14:28
gnarfaceit depends on what it was doing exactly, when it got interrupted14:28
g0zzyWindows Update is of course dire. But i somehow think that its timing is reasonably sane. Of course i have no hard evidence to state that ;)14:29
* g0zzy has the (unfounded?) optimism that Debian updates don't break much14:30
gnarfacestable has been pretty stablr14:34
gnarfacestable*14:34
gnarfaceafter ascii it's hit and miss14:34
g0zzyHow do you mean "after ASCII"?14:39
buZzsokan: should be fine, i had zero issues on a x23014:42
sokanbuZz: good news! I'm actually torn between x240 and t430 :P14:45
buZz:)14:45
buZznever tried a x240 , but should be a better machine then t43014:45
buZzat least faster cpu14:45
sokancheeper too XD14:45
sokanbut smaller in size. Not sure if that's a big issue14:46
buZzthats an improvement imho14:47
buZzsmaller laptops = less effort to carry them along14:47
buZzunless you're one of those ppl who buy a laptop and then -never- move it :D14:47
KatolaZg0zzy: there have been npo issues at all14:48
KatolaZthe issue is thinking that automagic stuff will save our ass14:49
KatolaZwhich is the source of most of the shit we have to deal with14:49
gnarfaceg0zzy: i mean, use stable (ascii) and you will generally have less surprises14:52
gnarfacealso, you will generally have fewer updates14:53
sokanbuZz: the idea is to have it with me all the time. :P14:54
buZzsokan: then get the smallest you can find ;)14:54
sokanBut it'l be used to game a bit and watch series etc. I'll be away from home and I'll need it14:55
buZzx230 runs steam just fine14:55
buZzand i played nearly all Wii and PSP games on it :P14:55
sokanbuZz: good news :D Also, is x2* as customizable as T430? Like if something breaks I can order screen etc from ebay and fix it myseld?14:55
buZzyes14:55
sokanand max RAM goes to 8 GB?14:56
KatolaZsokan: keyboards after x220 are a bit lower quality IMHO14:56
KatolaZI had a couple of x220 and they are all right (they are both still working)14:57
KatolaZsince x230 the keyboard has changed14:57
* surrounder pets his x22014:57
sokanhaha14:57
KatolaZ(I have an x260 now)14:57
* KatolaZ agrees with surrounder 14:57
KatolaZx220 are great machines14:57
sokanMy options sadly are a bit limited due to the country I live in and I want to buy stuff from shops here for the time being.14:58
surrounderaye, still really happy with this laptop14:58
sokanso I can choose between x230, x240 (the latter being cheaper) and T43014:59
KatolaZsokan: ebay15:00
sokanI'm impressed that all devs and tech people (coming from linux world anyway) swear by thinkpad x and t series15:00
KatolaZit is full of x220 in very good conditions15:00
KatolaZand quite cheap as well15:00
KatolaZsokan: then just choose the one with the larger amount of RAM15:01
KatolaZthe differences between x230 and x240 are mostly irrelevent15:01
KatolaZ(IMHO, obviously)15:02
sokanKatolaZ, surrounder, buZz thanks for you input people :)15:02
buZzwell, 3rd gen vs 4th gen cpu ;)15:02
buZzsokan: i only swear by x series ;)15:02
buZzand i have 16gb in my x23015:02
sokanI'll go for highest RAM (and newest cpu) on x series :)15:03
buZzx240 cant have 16gb, x230 (and x220 iirc) can15:03
sokan:O15:03
sokanbuZz: you prefer x to t due to size only?15:04
buZzyes15:04
buZzweight, size, appearance15:04
sokanalso KatolaZ it's always IMHO in my mind :P15:05
* g0zzy always uses stable for user desktops15:05
KatolaZsokan: it's better to always specify "IMHO", IMHO ;P15:06
sokanhahaha15:06
sokang0zzy: you don't like living on the edge? :P15:06
g0zzyNah. I like stability15:07
sokantrying to sort dependency issues all the time XD15:07
sokanKatolaZ: if I manage to get invoices for tax reduction from ebay I'll certainly consider buying from there15:08
* g0zzy now discovers that unattended-upgrades cannot be relied upon to perform unattended upgrades15:08
g0zzysokan: don't screenshots of purchases cut it?15:10
buZzi use ascii-backports a lot on desktops15:12
sokang0zzy: sadly no. I need a specific type of receipt to prove I need it for professional use15:14
g0zzyIs that a general problem with HMRC?15:16
sokanHMRC?15:19
buZzhead mounted remote control?15:19
g0zzyHer Majesty's Revenue and Customs. But i see you're probably not in the UK :)15:22
sokannah15:22
sokanGreece15:22
g0zzyAh. I think they are a bit more lenient here15:22
sokanyeah15:23
sokanFor some reaons tax here is a pain15:23
sokanit's why most people don't care for receipts in the first place XD15:23
KatolaZoh sokan I assumed it was a personal purchase, sorry15:28
KatolaZnevertheless, there are ebay shops able to issue invoices15:29
KatolaZactually, most of them can15:29
MinceRso +q $~a doesn't work anymore?15:34
* MinceR scratches head15:34
specingit should15:34
MinceRyet flyingtriangle0 could spam15:34
MinceRand nickserv says there's no such nick registered15:35
specingMinceR: I didn't see any spam15:35
MinceRoh, it was sent to me because i was opped15:35
specingMinceR: I think the lines are only shown to ops15:35
MinceRi forgot it works that way :)15:35
specingyes15:35
MinceRnice15:35
buZzspammers again? gee15:45
buZzbeen a while :D15:46
emdetei remember there was a wiki explaining how to migrate an existing debian or ubuntu to devuan but i cant find that anymore. can someone tell if i remember correctly and what the url was? thank you :)16:03
KatolaZhttps://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/ <- emdete16:08
Venkerhi people16:10
emdeteKatolaZ: thank's!16:11
golinuxspecing: I have no ops in this channel.  Neither does rrq16:16
specinggolinux: rrq has filters, you have ops: ChanServ: 7     golinux                +Aotv (AOP) [modified 2y 40w 0d ago]16:19
golinuxspecing: That's news to me16:23
golinuxand it16:23
golinux's probably not a good idea because I really don't know how to admin irc.16:24
golinuxrrq has filter for the forum.  Unlikely they would work on irc as it's a different beast.16:25
booyahgolinux: I know quite a lot about irc, in case of questions16:45
golinuxbooyah: Thanks.  I usually ping buZz but can't do that when I'm asleep.16:49
VenkerI've got an error with udev:  » grub2 - WARNING: Device /dev/sda1 not initialized in udev database...16:53
VenkerI can remount all /etc/fstab entries but it's likewise stuck16:54
DonkeyHotei[Sat 2019-03-02 06:35:16 AM PST] <MinceR> oh, it was sent to me because i was opped <-------- you need to /mode -z the channel16:55
Venkergrub-pc doesn't reconfigure. Should I purge grub-pc and reinstall?16:55
VenkerI'm in Devuan Testing17:12
XenguyVenker: Not sure, but idle for a bit if you can, as there are some very knowledgeable folks that drop in here now and again18:35
g0zzyIsn't update-grub normally used?19:33
Venkerthanks Xenguy, I'm reinstalling right now  ^_^U19:33
Venkereudev, lvm2 and grub-pc were fucked up19:34
Venkerat least I can use a beowulf mini.iso to install a new pristine system, instead of starting from ascii19:35
Venkerand do dist-upgrade19:35
emdeteis there a different way to install the devuan key? some `curl|apt-key`? what would be the url?20:56
fsmithredemdete, you could 'apt-get download devuan-keyring' to get the package, then install with dpkg21:03
fsmithredotherwise, look around at pkgmaster.devuan.org for the package and wget or curl it21:04
fsmithredI mean look for the file, not the package21:07
emdeteapt doesnt find the package as it didnt use the repo in the first place as its not signed.21:10
emdetei would suggest to provide the link in the wiki on devuans page to circumvent this deadlock21:10
fsmithredIf I'm not around when Venker comes back to say it didn't work, show him this link, and tell him he also needs to bind the hosts /run/udev to the target. Then update-grub will succeed. I'll be back in a few hours. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/105389/arch-grub-asking-for-run-lvm-lvmetad-socket-on-a-non-lvm-disk21:20
xinomiloemdete, this maybe : apt-key adv --keyserver hkps://hkps.pool.sks-keyservers.net --recv-keys E032601B7CA10BC3EA53FA81BB23C00C61FC752C21:24
xinomilothere's also another key in devuan-keyring : 72E3CB773315DFA2E464743D94532124541922FB21:24
emdetethe build looked for BB23C00C61FC752C ... but cool, i didnt know apt-key supports that. thank you!21:26
emdetemaybe a hint in the wiki would be good 🙂21:26
xinomiloemdete: BB23C00C61FC752C is short keyid of  E032601B7CA10BC3EA53FA81BB23C00C61FC752C21:30
xinomilosame thing :)21:30
Xenguyopenssh update, but I don't see it on the mirror yet22:01
KatolaZXenguy: it should hit the repos soonish22:02
XenguyOh, that's on the Debian side22:02
XenguyOK, thanks KatolaZ22:02

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