freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-03-02

sokanHi. I was wondering if devuan supports all .deb packages and things that are in debian repo. For example something like:
sokan(provided that the packages don't require specific services tied to systemd that is ofc)01:02
debdogany package except
sokanthankd debdog :)01:04
debdoghaha, thankd, nice typo01:04
debdogprolly freudian01:05
sokanyeap :P01:05
sokanWas thinking just that right now01:05
sokanGoing to get me a refurbished laptop and can't be bothered to go and install gentoo. Devu1 is the first things that came to mind as an alternative. Glad that I'll probably have 100% package coverage. As long as I figure out how to use apt-get S:01:07
debdog...or aptitude, for that matter01:07
sokanlerning curve is hard with devuan i hope01:09
debdogahh, hehe01:10
sokanI don't even want to start thinking Freudian now hehe01:10
sokananyway. Thanks for the info :)01:11
debdogany previous encounters with linux based distros? if so, which?01:11
sokanarch and a bit mint before that01:12
debdogoh, ok01:12
debdoghmm, there is a systemd-free arch....01:12
sokanwell, I don't like pacman and that AUR thingy so much01:12
sokanI want something that will be installed and just work :P01:13
sokanminimal tinkering and maintenance from me01:13
sokanthought devu1 was right up that alley01:14
debdoggood thing, most ubuntu and ebian howtos work for devuan as well01:14
sokanThat's a big plus01:14
sokanwhen the times comes I'll ask for more info here :)01:18
sokanopenrc works on latest release eh?01:18
debdogit should™, never tried it myself, though01:20
debdogthere should be an option in the installer01:20
sokanokey doke01:20
debdogprolly do expert install01:20
debdog*have to do01:20
sokanmight as well stick with default option01:21
sokanI won't be writing any service files anyway hehe01:21
specingopenrc seems to work01:28
specingAhhh, another Gentoo refugee ;)01:28
hdb2long-time debian user here...installed devuan today for the first time, and so far so good - looks great, behaves exactly like one would expect.  great work!02:19
Xenguy^^ Huh, FSF member with the kudos, cool02:58
XenguyWhatevsies ; -)05:07
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Leanderthat's it guys, I'm switching as of now08:44
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specingrrq: where are your spam filters now?09:06
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se7enI recently have added a display of the calendar program to my terminal window10:28
se7enSo it opens a calendar file every time I open a new terminal10:28
se7enI continue to see holidays and things I never knew10:28
se7enBut a lot of the entries seem fake. I look them up and can find no information10:28
se7enAnyone know anything about this10:28
JasonO-read about the new exciting pedo-friendly linux distribution
se7enLike what the hell is this10:29
se7enMar 02  Blackthorn winds (New England) (Does anyone know what this is?)10:29
se7enThey added the note "Does anyone know what this is"10:29
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sixwheeledbeast+M anyone?11:47
damncourierpick up your weapons and fight for the white race
mpmc9pick up your weapons and fight for the white race
jyrihuoh, kb anyone?11:56
jyri! me needs ops11:56
g0zzyif [ -d /run/systemd/system ]; then exit 0 fi That's in /etc/cron.daily/apt-compat. What follows (for Devuan) is slightly worrying. It looks like unattended-upgrades might not be run if someone powers up and then powers off fairly soon (within 30 minutes). Does any of you know about this?12:07
KatolaZg0zzy: what are you talking about exactly?12:11
g0zzyThat (afaics) is what kicks off unattended upgrades12:12
KatolaZg0zzy: how is this relatev with unattended upgrades?12:12
g0zzyafaics its what starts them12:13
nktech1135pick up your weapons and fight for the white race
g0zzyThat script must be relatively new as it checks for systemd12:14
KatolaZg0zzy: that's exactly the opposite12:15
KatolaZif systemd is running, it will be in charge of running unattended upgrades, apparently12:15
g0zzySorry - don't follow12:16
KatolaZthat check tests if systemd is running12:16
KatolaZif it's not, the script does not exit...12:16
KatolaZplease read the comment before that test in apt-compat12:16
luyikei7pick up your weapons and fight for the white race
g0zzyLet's just leave the comments for now if we can. I'll tell you why in a minute12:17
KatolaZg0zzy: sorry for asking, but is it clear to you what '[ -f FILE ]' means?12:17
KatolaZor [ -d DIR ] in this case?12:18
specinggolinux: +r please12:18
g0zzyYes. It mean if the directory /run/systemd/system exists, exit the script12:18
nebuchadnezzar8pick up your weapons and fight for the white race
g0zzySo that script only runs thereafter for non-systemd systems12:19
KatolaZso why should this break unattended upgrades in Devuan?12:19
g0zzyOK. You had me worried. I thought you were saying the opposite at first ;)12:20
KatolaZ12:08 < g0zzy> if [ -d /run/systemd/system ]; then exit 0 fi That's in /etc/cron.daily/apt-compat. What follows (for Devuan) is12:20
KatolaZ               slightly worrying. It looks like unattended-upgrades might not be run if someone powers up and then powers off fairly12:20
KatolaZ               soon (within 30 minutes). Does any of you know about this?12:20
g0zzyOK, i'll get there12:21
KatolaZg0zzy: it was you who said that unattended upgrade might not be run...12:21
KatolaZthis is totally unrelated to the amount of time between boot and reboot12:21
g0zzyHave a look at random_sleep12:21
KatolaZyeah, so what?12:21
KatolaZthis is unrelated to systemd still12:22
g0zzy(and note btw the first comment thereafter, that makes no sense [it's already been called])12:22
KatolaZand IIRC, that has been there for years12:22
KatolaZg0zzy: could you please make your point clear?12:22
g0zzyHow can it have been? It's checking for systemd12:23
KatolaZthe REST of the script has been there FOR YEARS12:23
g0zzyOh OK12:23
KatolaZthe check is there for systemd where systemd is actually running, AFAICT12:23
KatolaZthe logic is simple: if there is systemd, let it handle apt.daily12:24
KatolaZelse, do whatever you have been doing12:24
KatolaZ-> I can't see any breakage there12:24
g0zzyWell, the sleep could be up to 30 minutes12:24
KatolaZunless /run/systemd/system exists in a Devuan installation12:24
KatolaZg0zzy: how is this related to the check ?12:25
g0zzy/usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily won't be run until he sleep finishes12:25
KatolaZg0zzy: that script is run ONCE A DAY12:25
KatolaZif your pc is up only for 20 minutes, it won't be run anyway12:26
KatolaZapt-compat is inside cron.daily12:26
g0zzyPrecisely the problem12:26
KatolaZg0zzy: this has nothing to do with systemd12:26
g0zzyLots of my clients use their laptops in exactly that way12:26
KatolaZcan we agree on that?12:26
KatolaZgreat, change the script to not sleep12:27
g0zzyWell if what you said before (it's been there for ages) then yes12:27
g0zzyErr, no ;) I shouldn't need to change it should i?12:27
KatolaZg0zzy: do you have a point?12:28
KatolaZand, what is it?12:28
g0zzyI guess my point is that unattended-upgrades are broken for my users12:28
g0zzy# ensure we don't do this on battery12:29
KatolaZg0zzy: unattended-upgrade would not be running anyway if your users' uptime is normally 20 minutes12:29
g0zzyThat also makes no sense. (random_sleep has already been called)12:29
KatolaZbecause that script is called by anacron12:29
KatolaZand it's called at 17 minutes every hour12:29
g0zzySo we can agree maybe my  point?12:30
KatolaZI still don't get it12:30
KatolaZthat's the default which is thought to be working in most cases12:30
KatolaZif you need a different policy, you should implement it12:31
g0zzyOK. With some of my users their pattern of usage is: power up laptop. check email. power down. 15 minutes at most12:31
KatolaZthat's your problem g0zzy :)12:31
g0zzyCan you tell me about when cron.daily is run?12:32
KatolaZg0zzy: look into /etc/crontab12:32
KatolaZunless you have anacron, it is run once a day12:32
KatolaZif you have anacron installed and running, then look into /etc/anacrontab12:33
g0zzyDo you also agree that the check_power seems to make no sense?12:33
KatolaZno g0zzy12:33
KatolaZit does make sense12:33
KatolaZbecause you might not want to run upgrades while on batter12:34
g0zzyYou mean by "this" they mean "Run /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily"12:34
gnarfaceg0zzy: why not launch the update job from the window manager?12:34
gnarfacefrom a session login script12:34
KatolaZg0zzy: I still fail to see your point, I am sorry12:34
g0zzyI can't really rely on non-techies to do that12:34
KatolaZthen g0zzy *you* as a sysadmin should take care of that12:35
g0zzyOK, i need to some way of handling that12:37
g0zzyI can't remember now but is the last line of that in ASCII still exec /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily ?12:37
g0zzyCan't be surely?12:38
KatolaZg0zzy: the script in ascii is *identical*12:39
KatolaZjust check by yourself12:39
KatolaZdownload the deb12:39
KatolaZand extract it12:40
KatolaZ(use 'ar x' )12:40
KatolaZand then look into the data.tar.xz12:40
g0zzyYes, i had the qcow image running last night but couldn't remember how it ends12:40
KatolaZg0zzy: I am telling you, I have checked12:41
KatolaZand the script is the same12:41
KatolaZeven the systemd check is there12:41
g0zzyI believe you :)12:41
KatolaZit might also be the same in Jessie12:41
g0zzyJust a pity that it means for me that unattended is broken12:42
KatolaZg0zzy: nope, mate12:42
KatolaZit's that you must configure the thing to work on your specific use case12:42
KatolaZwhich is indeed peculiar, if you ask me12:43
g0zzyI've one guy (so far) on Devuan. I installed unattended. I bet his system has never been updated12:43
KatolaZg0zzy: that might be a blessing :P12:44
g0zzyNot really - these are ultra non-techies old folks12:44
KatolaZg0zzy: again, you can fix it easily12:44
* g0zzy shouldn't really have to rewrite the package to get it working. 12:44
KatolaZjust change the apt-compat script12:44
KatolaZend of story12:44
KatolaZyou don't have to rewrite the package12:45
KatolaZyou have to edit the apt-compat script12:45
g0zzyI might leave the power check in12:45
KatolaZg0zzy: that's your decision12:45
KatolaZit's your policy12:46
gnarfacethe window manager should have some sort of way to set programs to auto-start12:46
gnarfacesome sort of startups menu12:46
gnarfaceit is probably something you can alter for them remotely simply by distributing a file12:47
g0zzyGnarface, that's an idea. But remote no - unattended is *because* remote is problematic12:48
g0zzyI've used a wicd script before12:48
g0zzyThanks for your thoughts. Got to go and wash up ;)12:49
trevnorris4pick up your weapons and fight for the white race
Guest76770pick up your weapons and fight for the white race
LIndividupick up your weapons and fight for the white race
KatolaZis there a chanop to set +R please?13:14
specingthere are 10 of them, all afk13:18
specingcc jaromil coagen  MinceR Centurion_Dan buZz parazyd13:19
specingI sacrificed myself for the greater good13:23
specingI'm surprised I was able to reconnect after being killed13:23
specingCenturion_Dan: can you set +r on the channel?13:24
Centurion_Danyeah, when I figure out how...13:26
Centurion_Danpm me if you know...13:26
specing /mode +r13:29
g0zzySo, back to the unattended-upgrades issue - what would you do in my stated case?13:55
gnarfacetell them to leave the thing on longer to update13:57
sokanAnyone has any idea if I'll have troubles with wifi by installing dev1 in a T430?14:00
g0zzyKatolaZ: Why did you say that it might be a good thing that my guy's Devuan box has never updated? Have there been "issues"?14:01
g0zzygnarface: you know - i think that just might be the correct solution ;)14:02
g0zzyPity though - it just lends credibility to the "Linux is not desktop-ready" crew14:10
gnarfacenothing would stop them from destroying the system by interrupting an upgrade to shut down anyway14:20
gnarfaceand it's not like windows or mac could either14:20
gnarfacecould survive that or "handle it" sanely, that is14:20
g0zzyActually i'm not sure that's correct. I've had people power down during a manual upgrade by me. Worst that happened is manual removal of a lock file was necessary prior to re-running the update14:24
gnarfaceit won't even always break14:28
gnarfacebut just because it didn't break obviously didn't mean it didn't break14:28
gnarfaceit depends on what it was doing exactly, when it got interrupted14:28
g0zzyWindows Update is of course dire. But i somehow think that its timing is reasonably sane. Of course i have no hard evidence to state that ;)14:29
* g0zzy has the (unfounded?) optimism that Debian updates don't break much14:30
gnarfacestable has been pretty stablr14:34
gnarfaceafter ascii it's hit and miss14:34
g0zzyHow do you mean "after ASCII"?14:39
buZzsokan: should be fine, i had zero issues on a x23014:42
sokanbuZz: good news! I'm actually torn between x240 and t430 :P14:45
buZznever tried a x240 , but should be a better machine then t43014:45
buZzat least faster cpu14:45
sokancheeper too XD14:45
sokanbut smaller in size. Not sure if that's a big issue14:46
buZzthats an improvement imho14:47
buZzsmaller laptops = less effort to carry them along14:47
buZzunless you're one of those ppl who buy a laptop and then -never- move it :D14:47
KatolaZg0zzy: there have been npo issues at all14:48
KatolaZthe issue is thinking that automagic stuff will save our ass14:49
KatolaZwhich is the source of most of the shit we have to deal with14:49
gnarfaceg0zzy: i mean, use stable (ascii) and you will generally have less surprises14:52
gnarfacealso, you will generally have fewer updates14:53
sokanbuZz: the idea is to have it with me all the time. :P14:54
buZzsokan: then get the smallest you can find ;)14:54
sokanBut it'l be used to game a bit and watch series etc. I'll be away from home and I'll need it14:55
buZzx230 runs steam just fine14:55
buZzand i played nearly all Wii and PSP games on it :P14:55
sokanbuZz: good news :D Also, is x2* as customizable as T430? Like if something breaks I can order screen etc from ebay and fix it myseld?14:55
sokanand max RAM goes to 8 GB?14:56
KatolaZsokan: keyboards after x220 are a bit lower quality IMHO14:56
KatolaZI had a couple of x220 and they are all right (they are both still working)14:57
KatolaZsince x230 the keyboard has changed14:57
* surrounder pets his x22014:57
KatolaZ(I have an x260 now)14:57
* KatolaZ agrees with surrounder 14:57
KatolaZx220 are great machines14:57
sokanMy options sadly are a bit limited due to the country I live in and I want to buy stuff from shops here for the time being.14:58
surrounderaye, still really happy with this laptop14:58
sokanso I can choose between x230, x240 (the latter being cheaper) and T43014:59
KatolaZsokan: ebay15:00
sokanI'm impressed that all devs and tech people (coming from linux world anyway) swear by thinkpad x and t series15:00
KatolaZit is full of x220 in very good conditions15:00
KatolaZand quite cheap as well15:00
KatolaZsokan: then just choose the one with the larger amount of RAM15:01
KatolaZthe differences between x230 and x240 are mostly irrelevent15:01
KatolaZ(IMHO, obviously)15:02
sokanKatolaZ, surrounder, buZz thanks for you input people :)15:02
buZzwell, 3rd gen vs 4th gen cpu ;)15:02
buZzsokan: i only swear by x series ;)15:02
buZzand i have 16gb in my x23015:02
sokanI'll go for highest RAM (and newest cpu) on x series :)15:03
buZzx240 cant have 16gb, x230 (and x220 iirc) can15:03
sokanbuZz: you prefer x to t due to size only?15:04
buZzweight, size, appearance15:04
sokanalso KatolaZ it's always IMHO in my mind :P15:05
* g0zzy always uses stable for user desktops15:05
KatolaZsokan: it's better to always specify "IMHO", IMHO ;P15:06
sokang0zzy: you don't like living on the edge? :P15:06
g0zzyNah. I like stability15:07
sokantrying to sort dependency issues all the time XD15:07
sokanKatolaZ: if I manage to get invoices for tax reduction from ebay I'll certainly consider buying from there15:08
* g0zzy now discovers that unattended-upgrades cannot be relied upon to perform unattended upgrades15:08
g0zzysokan: don't screenshots of purchases cut it?15:10
buZzi use ascii-backports a lot on desktops15:12
sokang0zzy: sadly no. I need a specific type of receipt to prove I need it for professional use15:14
g0zzyIs that a general problem with HMRC?15:16
buZzhead mounted remote control?15:19
g0zzyHer Majesty's Revenue and Customs. But i see you're probably not in the UK :)15:22
g0zzyAh. I think they are a bit more lenient here15:22
sokanFor some reaons tax here is a pain15:23
sokanit's why most people don't care for receipts in the first place XD15:23
KatolaZoh sokan I assumed it was a personal purchase, sorry15:28
KatolaZnevertheless, there are ebay shops able to issue invoices15:29
KatolaZactually, most of them can15:29
MinceRso +q $~a doesn't work anymore?15:34
* MinceR scratches head15:34
specingit should15:34
MinceRyet flyingtriangle0 could spam15:34
MinceRand nickserv says there's no such nick registered15:35
specingMinceR: I didn't see any spam15:35
MinceRoh, it was sent to me because i was opped15:35
specingMinceR: I think the lines are only shown to ops15:35
MinceRi forgot it works that way :)15:35
buZzspammers again? gee15:45
buZzbeen a while :D15:46
emdetei remember there was a wiki explaining how to migrate an existing debian or ubuntu to devuan but i cant find that anymore. can someone tell if i remember correctly and what the url was? thank you :)16:03
KatolaZ <- emdete16:08
Venkerhi people16:10
emdeteKatolaZ: thank's!16:11
golinuxspecing: I have no ops in this channel.  Neither does rrq16:16
specinggolinux: rrq has filters, you have ops: ChanServ: 7     golinux                +Aotv (AOP) [modified 2y 40w 0d ago]16:19
golinuxspecing: That's news to me16:23
golinuxand it16:23
golinux's probably not a good idea because I really don't know how to admin irc.16:24
golinuxrrq has filter for the forum.  Unlikely they would work on irc as it's a different beast.16:25
booyahgolinux: I know quite a lot about irc, in case of questions16:45
golinuxbooyah: Thanks.  I usually ping buZz but can't do that when I'm asleep.16:49
VenkerI've got an error with udev:  » grub2 - WARNING: Device /dev/sda1 not initialized in udev database...16:53
VenkerI can remount all /etc/fstab entries but it's likewise stuck16:54
DonkeyHotei[Sat 2019-03-02 06:35:16 AM PST] <MinceR> oh, it was sent to me because i was opped <-------- you need to /mode -z the channel16:55
Venkergrub-pc doesn't reconfigure. Should I purge grub-pc and reinstall?16:55
VenkerI'm in Devuan Testing17:12
XenguyVenker: Not sure, but idle for a bit if you can, as there are some very knowledgeable folks that drop in here now and again18:35
g0zzyIsn't update-grub normally used?19:33
Venkerthanks Xenguy, I'm reinstalling right now  ^_^U19:33
Venkereudev, lvm2 and grub-pc were fucked up19:34
Venkerat least I can use a beowulf mini.iso to install a new pristine system, instead of starting from ascii19:35
Venkerand do dist-upgrade19:35
emdeteis there a different way to install the devuan key? some `curl|apt-key`? what would be the url?20:56
fsmithredemdete, you could 'apt-get download devuan-keyring' to get the package, then install with dpkg21:03
fsmithredotherwise, look around at for the package and wget or curl it21:04
fsmithredI mean look for the file, not the package21:07
emdeteapt doesnt find the package as it didnt use the repo in the first place as its not signed.21:10
emdetei would suggest to provide the link in the wiki on devuans page to circumvent this deadlock21:10
fsmithredIf I'm not around when Venker comes back to say it didn't work, show him this link, and tell him he also needs to bind the hosts /run/udev to the target. Then update-grub will succeed. I'll be back in a few hours.
xinomiloemdete, this maybe : apt-key adv --keyserver hkps:// --recv-keys E032601B7CA10BC3EA53FA81BB23C00C61FC752C21:24
xinomilothere's also another key in devuan-keyring : 72E3CB773315DFA2E464743D94532124541922FB21:24
emdetethe build looked for BB23C00C61FC752C ... but cool, i didnt know apt-key supports that. thank you!21:26
emdetemaybe a hint in the wiki would be good 🙂21:26
xinomiloemdete: BB23C00C61FC752C is short keyid of  E032601B7CA10BC3EA53FA81BB23C00C61FC752C21:30
xinomilosame thing :)21:30
Xenguyopenssh update, but I don't see it on the mirror yet22:01
KatolaZXenguy: it should hit the repos soonish22:02
XenguyOh, that's on the Debian side22:02
XenguyOK, thanks KatolaZ22:02

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