freenode/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-09-06

hightower3I removed libpolicykit-1 as a dependency from libvirt-daemon-system00:01
hightower3and it installed and started00:01
hightower3and I connected to it via virt-manager00:01
hightower3(it == libvirt-daemon-system)00:01
hightower3seems like that's it, thanks for discussion/pointers00:03
fsmithredcool. now I know who to ask next time I want to try virt-manager00:03
minnesotagsI'm trying to install stupid notepadqq from their add-repository packages, but it flakes out because "not debian". How do I fake it out?02:41
gnarfaceminnesotags: it's probably a bad idea.  don't they have a source archive you can compile?02:43
gnarfaceyou can easily make simple packages from a source archive with checkinstall02:44
fsmithredID=debian in /etc/os-release02:47
fsmithredwill probably work. It seems to be fooling grub.02:48
minnesotagsI suppose I need to learn to compile shit eventually....02:56
gnarfaceminnesotags: most stuff is pretty easy to compile.  it is a good way to gauge the quality of the software, actually.03:12
gnarface(Xorg and the kernel being historic exceptions to that rule, Wine, however, is not)03:13
furrywolfby far the worst thing to compile that I've ever found is python.03:27
furrywolfwine is easy!03:28
gnarfaceeh, not as easy if you're trying to build the dual-arch 32bit+64bit wine03:33
gnarfacenot on debian anyway03:33
gnarfacebecause a bunch of the dependencies aren't multi-arch safe yet03:34
gnarfacestill possible, just complicated03:34
gnarfacea lot more complicated than just doing ./configure && make && checkinstall make install03:34
furrywolfI compiled multi-arch debian wine on this box.  the only hard part was...  python.  heh.03:42
furrywolfnote, I compiled unstable's source packages, which may be a lot easier than upstream's source.03:43
gnarfaceeh, maybe you got lucky and tried it when it worked03:45
gnarfaceor i'm talking about an entirely different wine version03:45
gnarfaceone that there aren't src packages for03:45
gnarfaceat this point i think wine 1.6 is actually pretty well hammered down03:46
gnarfacebut things get sketchier when you're trying to play WoW :-p03:46
furrywolfwine-4.0 (Debian 4.0-2~bpo9+1)03:46
furrywolfhrmm, looks like I actually put the backports version on this box.03:47
furrywolfI may have my boxes confused.03:47
furrywolfohh, I remember, on this one I wasted a whole bunch of time compiling gtk:i386, because of python.03:49
gnarfaceoh that's right, wine stable is up to 4.0 now, i remember.  i had forgotten that03:49
gnarfacewine-development and wine-staging are different creatures though03:49
furrywolfI compiled gtk myself to get recent bug fixes, but that meant when I went to install the bpo wine, I also had to build gtk for i386...03:50
furrywolfand building gtk (for any arch) is a nightmare because of python.03:50
systemdletealmost have the laptop installed now.  It asks me which kernel to install -- recommendations?04:05
systemdlete(defaults to inux-image-amd64)04:06
systemdleteshould I take the default?  Is there any real difference?04:06
furrywolfshould be good04:06
systemdleteok, thx04:07
gnarfacesystemdlete: "linux-image-amd64" is the meta-package that will ensure the kernel keeps getting updated along with all the rest of the system updates, so that is probably the one you usually want04:09
systemdleteI hope something can be done for future releases wrt the installer:  My laptop comes up in portrait mode rather than the expected landscape (because it IS a tablet after all).  There should be an option.  I tried various combinations of grub boot options, with no luck.04:09
systemdletethanks gnarface04:09
gnarfacesystemdlete: portrait mode in the gui, or also before Xorg starts?04:10
systemdleteduring install04:10
gnarfaceduring install even04:11
gnarfacehmmm, well ... there might be a way to fudge it04:11
systemdleteyes.  Haven't gotten far enough to tell you more04:11
gnarfacesome video drivers do support screen rotation natively, and you could define that in a xorg.conf snippet04:12
systemdletexorg.conf is way ahead of the game04:12
systemdletethis is during install04:12
gnarfaceand if the text console is supported by modesetting aka "kms" then i know you can set resolution for that in grub, so maybe it supports screen rotation too, but i don't know for sure, you'd have to consult the docs04:12
systemdleteI'm sure there is a way to fix it after the system is up and running on its own.04:13
gnarfacefor the installer itself, i think your only options is kernel command-line parameters but none come to mind.  you honestly might just have to tough it out through the installer04:13
systemdletewell then, I guess I am getting really good at toughing it out04:14
systemdleteuh-oh.  I forgot about this part... where it asks which packages04:16
systemdleteI had serious problems last time with this step.  If I pick the defaults here, will I get a working X11 with Xfce?  Or do I have to select xfce (which says it is default)04:16
gnarfacesystemdlete: don't select anything.  install what you want after04:17
systemdletegood idea!04:17
gnarfacesystemdlete: it doesn't actually specify that, but "nothing" is a perfectly acceptable choice04:17
gnarface"standard system utils" probably never hurt anyone though04:17
systemdletespecify what?04:17
gnarfaceit doesn't tell you that you can pick nothing04:17
gnarfaceit sorta infers you have to choose SOME of those checkboxes, and i think even checks some for you04:18
gnarfacebut you can actually just uncheck all of them04:18
gnarfaceyou should still get a bootable system04:18
systemdleteis that damage from debian, or new damage from us?04:18
gnarfaceit has always been that way04:18
systemdlete(the installer clumsiness)04:18
systemdleteso it is debian then04:18
gnarfacethis is the new and heavily improved, super user-friendly overhaul of their notoriously difficult installer04:19
gnarfaceyou should have seen it back in the potato days :-p04:19
gnarfaceyou get used to it though04:20
gnarfacein expert mode, it has usefulness that other installers lack04:20
systemdletethis install is going better than I figured... after several false starts due to how this machine boots up under linux04:20
systemdletedidn't get that i8402 error again, but I did have a hang when it was detecting the emmc card... twice.04:21
systemdletebut several reboots, prayers, and rain dances seems to have worked.04:21
systemdletenow if it will just complete the installation without incident... and make the laptop boot into linux, I'll be content.04:22
systemdleteI'll be able to use linux on my new laptop convertible tablet while watching tv in my recliner.  Like the old fart I am quickly becoming.04:22
gnarfacesystemdlete: cheers to that04:23
gnarfacesystemdlete: a newer kernel may help the eMMC stability problems.04:24
systemdleteyeah, but sadly, that seems to be an after-install task.04:24
gnarfacethat's fine04:24
gnarfaceit just has to complete the install and boot first04:24
systemdleteso I have to put up with these stability issues during the install process.04:24
systemdlete(right, right...)04:25
gnarfacewell, just for now.  the next release's installer will undoubtedly fix at least that problem04:25
gnarfacebecause it was already fixed in the kernel upstream04:25
gnarface(i assume, anyway)04:25
systemdleteemmc problem?04:25
gnarfacei've been hanging out in some ARM device channels, and yea i think i remember hearing them talking about fixing multiple eMMC stability problems and throughput speed issues (also applying to USB stuff) *after* kernel 4.9 which is in ascii04:26
gnarfaceso in theory all you should need is to grab the backport kernel once your install completes04:26
systemdletethis IS ascii i'm installing btw04:26
gnarfaceascii-backports i think has 4.19 or later now04:27
gnarfacewhich is much more current04:27
systemdleteI thought 4.19 was not stable...04:27
systemdlete(trying to recall where I heard that uttered.  Was either here or over in #adelie...)04:28
gnarfacewell i think 5.2 is out and it's not stable either04:28
gnarfaceso ymmv04:28
gnarfaceit might not necessarily mean unstable for everyone04:29
systemdletewell, if this system (laptop) is stable after install, I might leave well enough alone04:29
gnarfacethat wouldn't be a bad idea04:29
gnarfaceafter all, the installer could be using a kernel even older than 4.9 for all i know04:29
systemdletein any event, I will look at 4.19 and see what it has to offer.  My only worry is that it might brick my laptop somehow (unlikely, but these cheap imports are not exactly robust)04:30
systemdlete4.9.0-6 (from console)04:30
systemdleteit's eating grubs now...  (almost done)04:33
furrywolf4.14 here, seems to work fine..04:34
systemdleteefi shadow copy or no?04:35
systemdletethe default is "no"04:35
systemdletebut this IS an efi laptop04:35
systemdleteand it's a 32 bit EFI on a 64 bit laptop04:35
systemdleteadelie channel people told me they had never tried an install to this mixed platform04:37
systemdletethey seemed to be concerned that it might not work.  On the other hand, my adelie usb stick did boot the laptop, so there must be some hope there04:38
systemdletealso, this is a eMMC drive, not SSD.  I undestand that eMMC is not as sturdy as SSD04:38
systemdleteI think I'll take the option (not default) here04:40
systemdletesee what happens.   ::EYEROLL::04:40
systemdletefurrywolf:  What kind of hw are you running there?  My laptop is brand new, it's a ASUS transformer (T101A), it has a eMMC card, something called an i8402 that sometimes causes hangs, and on and on.04:42
systemdletebut it's nice to know it works, at least nominally04:43
systemdletewho-hoo!  booted to login prompt04:44
systemdleteall sideways...04:44
furrywolfsystemdlete:  toughbook cf-52 with i5-540m04:45
furrywolfit's not brand new, but it's not ancient04:47
systemdleterotated the screen, but now seems all locked up04:48
systemdletewell I can still get a console04:51
systemdleteafter reboot and logging in again, the display is landscape and whatever rebooting did, seems to have fixed the weirdness04:52
furrywolf"fixed".  :P04:56
gnarfacesystemdlete: so you're at a text prompt with no gui?04:57
systemdleteno, I have xfce04:57
systemdleteno worries04:58
systemdletecan't get online though04:58
gnarfacealright, so you got it?04:58
systemdleteI used wireless during install04:58
systemdleteand it still sees my home wifi04:58
gnarfaceopen /etc/network/interfaces in a text editor04:58
systemdleteyeah, was getting ready to do that next04:58
gnarfacedid you get the full dvd set?04:59
gnarfacethe non net-installer?04:59
gnarfaceat least the first CD or DVD?04:59
systemdleteI did a net-install04:59
gnarfaceeh, i'm confused now04:59
gnarfaceyou ended up without a gui network config tool in xfce?05:00
furrywolfyes.  ascii does that.05:00
gnarfacethat's not the part i'm confused about05:01
gnarfacei'm trying to figure out how he got xfce without a net connection05:01
furrywolfI've mentioned at least a dozen times, roughly correlated to how many times I've installed it, that the installer reallllly needs to copy over the installer wifi config to the install.05:01
gnarfacehmmm, i thought it did...05:02
systemdleteI did a net-install, as I said above, and I used wireless during install, as I said above05:02
furrywolfthe installer has wifi.  it doesn't transfer over the settings to the installed system.  and unless you select the right tasks, no wifi manager gets installer.  have to manually set up wpa_supplicant if so, and it's a fucking pain in the ass.05:02
furrywolfsystemdlete:  so you didn't get wicd?05:03
systemdletewicd is there.  Otherwise, how could the desktop network widget list all the network SSIDs?05:04
furrywolfoh, I mis-understood the problem.05:04
systemdleteI said above, it still sees my home wifi05:04
furrywolfyou must have installed some of the task packages.  :)05:05
systemdlete(sorry maybe I type TOO MUCH...)05:05
systemdletewhat is supposed to happen when I select one of the networks listed?05:05
gnarfacei thought the problem was that it's set to the WRONG wifi and you had done a bare-bones install and were just missing some packages05:05
systemdleteisn't it supposed to pop a dialog to enter my pass phrase?05:06
systemdleteor am I missing something as furrywolf suggested a bit?05:06
furrywolfif you select a network, click connect, enter a passphrase (can be non-obvious, make sure you have the right type selected), and connect again, it should connect...05:06
furrywolfno, you should have all you need.  I thought you ended up with the same problem I get too often with ending up with nothing other than wpa_supplicant installed.05:07
systemdleteif I RIGHT click the widget, I can see the networks.  Selecting one won't work... but if I LEFT click the widget, I get a UI and I can configure my network here05:08
systemdleteso now I am ONLINE folks!!!05:09
systemdleteSo now it is time for some fun05:10
systemdletelike...   separating the keyboard05:10
systemdletehoohoohahahahah!  bwahhahahahhah!05:10
gnarfacei would recommend doing a full update if you haven't already, and then making a backup, first05:10
gnarfacethat's what i'd recommend05:11
gnarfacemaybe stopping to upgrade the kernel if it crashes during that05:11
gnarfaceto the ascii-backport kernel05:11
furrywolfnetinst should end up with current packages05:11
systemdleteexcept for the kernel though?05:12
gnarfaceeverything depends on if it as unstable as it was in the installer05:12
systemdletewell, that behaved well.  I separated the keyboard, the mouse pointer still responded to my finger but there is no way to actually key anything in05:12
gnarfacemabye it already has the fixes in the current kernel05:13
gnarfacethey've patched it a bunch of times05:13
systemdleteI can already see I am going to need a hub05:15
furrywolfI don't know if xfce is intended for touch-centric devices...05:16
systemdleteit works, furrywolf05:16
systemdletewell, some touches work05:17
systemdleteduring install, I noticed that touch worked in the full graphical install version05:18
furrywolfI mean, things like popping up an onscreen keyboard when appropriate, pinch zoom, and other things than basic pointing.05:18
systemdletedoes ascii use wayland?05:18
systemdleteso do I need synaptics driver?05:19
gnarfaceyou might want it if it can support your touch pad05:19
gnarfacei mean probably will want it05:19
systemdlete(I want to enable double-tap as left click and maybe other useful things)05:19
gnarfacesounds like that's what you want then05:20
gnarfacethere's only really that one05:20
gnarfaceand the various mouse drivers05:20
onefangIs this a touch screen, or a touch pad?05:21
gnarfacegood question05:21
gnarfacei assumed the device has both05:22
gnarfacei don't know if synaptics would handle a touchscreen05:22
onefangI was using a touch screen based computer for a while, it worked no matter what operating system I used.  Much to the surprise of the manager that was looking over my shoulder while we worked on a document together.  She kept touching the screen to point out something while I was typing, and I kept having to undo all my letters being scattered at random spots in the document.05:22
systemdleteit has a touch pad and the screen is a touch screen05:23
systemdletethis is state-of-the-art junk from China here!05:23
systemdletemost of it seems to work05:23
systemdlete$300 + $60 spills and chills + $40 tax05:24
systemdleteabout $400 in the hole with this05:24
gnarfacedid you install lm-sensors ?05:24
furrywolfone of my toughbooks has a touchscreen...  I never use it.05:24
systemdletenot yet, good idea thanks gnarface05:24
systemdletefurrywolf is that because YOU are so tough?  Afraid you'd break it?05:25
systemdlete(I picture large, strong hands and fingers on the 'wolf)05:25
furrywolfheh.  I have personally jumped on top of a toughbook without damaging it.  :)05:25
furrywolfI just don't see the point to waving my whole arm around awkwardly to do simple things.05:25
systemdleteI think cheap junk from china deserves that05:25
systemdleteI've rebooted about 3x now and it comes up faithfully.   Unfortunately, the greeter (dm) is sideways, but the desktop is landscape05:28
onefangSo just login before you get out of bed, problem solved.  B-)05:29
systemdleteit's surprisingly quick rebooting05:30
systemdleteonefang:  LOL05:33
systemdletekeep it bedside huh?05:33
systemdletedouble tap works with the synaptics driver05:33
systemdletegnarface:  poor touch screen support so far06:00
systemdleteI'll hack at this later... I've been sitting here for hours and haven't moved06:02
systemdlete(and thanks for everyone's help or hilarity, as they both made it easier and fun)06:02
furrywolfI wish I could go to bed.06:03
furrywolfI'm not allowed to sleep until my pot grower neighbors pass out drunk and thus stop making loud noises.06:03
systemdleteanyone know why apt autoremove wants to remove something like 200 packages all of a sudden?  The list keeps getting longer every time, and includes packages like wicd and openoffice which I need!11:01
onefangWhere they manually selected, or did they get included as suggestions / recommendations?11:03
systemdletethey were automatically included, but I need them!11:03
systemdlete(well, most of them anyway)11:03
onefangManually select the top level ones you need.11:03
systemdleteHow do I "select" them?   I'm not too ept on apt11:04
onefangUsually I do that with synaptic.11:04
systemdletethat's what I figured, but was not sure.  thanks11:05
onefangWhere you highlight the package, go to the Package menu, turn off Automatically installed.11:06
systemdleteactually, I selected the defaults in the install -- I didn't touch anything, just agreed to the suggested configuration of packages and hit continue11:06
systemdleteto my own way of thinking, anything that was selected there should have been considered manually selected.  But that's just me.11:07
onefangOne last thought before I eat dinner - my guess is that the apt solution is - apt install package.  It'll tell you it's already installed, but may mark it as something you actually asked for, rather than something that came along for the ride.11:14
systemdleteOh, I understand that.   What I don't get is why all these packages which were installed as part of my "selections" during the system installation are now considered not manually selected.11:16
systemdletetbh, I have never fully understood the deb/apt philosophy.   Redhat's RPM solution, along with yum, just seem much clearer (though it has its weirdness too, admittedly)11:17
systemdletethanks again, enjoy dinner11:22
xrogaansystemdlete: aptitude unmarkauto [packages]11:54
xrogaanor apt-mark11:54
xrogaanapt-mark allows you to list manual/auto and mark them as manual or auto11:54
systemdleteok, thanks.  I'll try that11:55
xrogaanyou still need to know the name of the packages you want to keep11:56
systemdletewell, for the most part I do11:56
systemdleteI've narrowed down the list significantly so far11:56
systemdleteis this typical after a new install ?11:57
systemdleteI'd think people would have been going nuts by now.11:57
xrogaanI have a file named /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/05disable-suggests that contains `APT::Install-Suggests "0";'11:57
systemdletehow is this normally handled (presumably by people who know debian well)?11:57
xrogaanso that apt doesn't automatically install suggested packages.11:57
systemdletehow do you do that at system install time?11:58
onefangI'm guessing at some point you installed a task-* package (task-desktop?), then removed it.11:58
xrogaanand a `APT::Install-Recommends "false";' too11:58
systemdleteI dont' think so.11:58
systemdletethe only task package I removed is lightdm11:59
systemdletewell, actually, I just removed lightdm11:59
systemdletenot a task11:59
xrogaancheck the /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ directory and see if the recommends and suggests install are turned off11:59
spoonovitchi like to use "apt-mark showauto" and "apt-mark showmanual" to sort this kind of mess11:59
systemdleteI don't mind the suggests and recommends.11:59
systemdleteIn fact, I find it useful.  The point is just that I figure any packages selected (even by default) at system install time would be marked as manual.12:00
hightower3systemdlete, if you want to reduce the amount of installed packages, install and run 'debfoster'12:00
systemdletejust the opposite -- trying NOT to remove packages!12:01
hightower3so where's the issue then :)12:01
hightower3ah you wanted to run 'autoremove' and not remove packages that you use?12:01
systemdletehightower3:  apt autoremove is giving me a long list of packages, many of which are critical (like wicd, without which I cannot operate)12:01
hightower3that's a good question... usually when I see it happen, I just manually do apt install <name> for a couple of largest/biggest packages, who then in turn keep installed everything else.12:02
hightower3I never tried it, but I guess that when you installed packages during install, you selected "tasks" (packages which depend on other packages)12:03
hightower3if for some reason your selections weren't marked as manual,12:03
hightower3just do apt install <task name>12:03
hightower3like someone above mentioned12:03
systemdleteActually, I didn't really "select" ANYTHING -- I just took the suggested configuration as it was, making no adjustments.12:03
xrogaanyou can force the recommends using aptitude: aptitude install -r package12:03
hightower3yes, well, it installed some "tasks" which in turn depend on all other packages they installed (that's how they got installed in the first place)12:04
onefangThe suggested configuration was stuff like - desktop, server, web server, ...?12:04
xrogaanor is it aptitude -r intall?12:04
hightower3yes, those are tasks12:04
hightower3tasks packages12:04
systemdleteright.  But for an initial install, the system installer should assume I mean make all the installed packages marked manual12:04
onefangThe point I was about to make.12:05
hightower3yes I understand12:05
hightower3I am simply telling that maybe you don't need to now mark all those packages as manual12:05
systemdletebut, noooo... it does NOT work that way12:05
hightower3but only the tasks packages12:05
systemdleteok, will try that12:05
hightower3I don't remember offhand how they're called, someone above hinted at the name12:05
systemdlete(which should have been done FOR ME when I did the system install... sheesh)12:06
fsmithredif it's a new install, there shouldn't be anything on the autoremove list12:06
fsmithredunless you removed something12:06
systemdletefsmithred;  YAY!    Yes, I agree.12:06
systemdleteSo why did autoremoves suddenly appear?12:06
xrogaanbtw, is it alright to upgrade from ascii to beowulf?12:06
fsmithredxrogaan, depends on what you've got installed12:06
xrogaanaren't the existing issues with migration or new install?12:06
systemdletexrogaan:  I did that in a VM12:06
systemdlete(but that was months ago)12:07
fsmithredI've upgraded refracta (ascii, xfce, no metapackages) very easily to beowulf12:07
xrogaanfsmithred: is it? Do you have a list of known issue somewhere? Maybe the forum...12:07
systemdletefsmithred:  I have not removed anything so far.12:07
fsmithredthere's no list of issues12:07
fsmithredthere are a few discussions about upgrades to beowulf on the forum, some are old and obsolete.12:08
xrogaanI believe I have some meta packages, how do we list them?12:08
fsmithredI don't know a way to show just the metapackages12:08
fsmithredpossibly: dpkg -l |grep metapackage12:09
xrogaanit's the task- things right?12:09
onefangThe sudden list af autoremove is due to you removing ... something ... that removed the package/s that suggested or recommended the things you wanted to keep.12:09
fsmithredyeah, that will find the worst ones12:09
onefangYou said you removed lightdm.12:09
fsmithredbut most of the desktops have their own metapackages12:09
fsmithredtask-*-desktop all depend on some display manager12:10
fsmithredif you try to remove the dm, it breaks the task package and wants to remove the whole desktop12:10
xrogaanI don't believe I have task-xfce-desktop, just task-desktop12:11
fsmithrednot sure, but maybe 'apt install lightdm && apt remove lightdm' would fix it12:11
xrogaanbecause I use lightdm with xfce.12:11
hightower3ah yes12:11
hightower3he might have uninstalled some package12:11
hightower3this also uninstalled task12:11
hightower3then all other packages remained with no dependant on them12:11
* xrogaan is going to grab an iso just in case12:12
fsmithredsystemdlete, without the task packages, the installer would need over 1000 checkboxes12:12
fsmithredif you're coming from suse or redhat, you might expect the installer to look and work more like synaptic12:13
fsmithredbut it's not.12:14
onefangEven synaptic can turn off suggests and recommends auto inclusion.12:14
onefangThat's the way i run it.  B-)12:15
systemdletefsmithred:  It should be easy for the installer to mark all the dependent packages of the task packages as manual12:15
systemdleteit's an automation step, that's all12:16
fsmithredI guess someone decided they shouldn't do that, and there's a way to do it afterward if you need it.12:16
fsmithredMost people who want a more customized installation un-check everything (or almost everything) at the tasksel screen.12:17
systemdleteas far as the dm, I am only removed lightdm, which I had installed and decided I didn't want12:17
fsmithredThen add what you want after reboot.12:17
fsmithredthat's all it takes12:17
fsmithredthe task- package requires lightdm. Without it, you can't have the task- package.12:18
fsmithred...unless you mark it as manually installed first12:18
systemdleteok, so that's how MOST people do it.  You see, I had gotten bitten at that step a whiles back when installing to a different system (I think it was my testbox) and wanted to avoid the trouble.  (I forget what it was that went wrong, but I think it stalled the whole process of system installation)12:18
systemdleteSo I decided to just accept the whole slew as is.12:19
fsmithredso try manually installing and uninstalling it.12:20
systemdleteso I just re-installed lightdm12:20
fsmithredwhich desktop do you have?12:21
systemdlete(I thought the system came with another dm besides lightdm)12:21
systemdleteand the others12:21
systemdletemate, cinnamon, etc12:21
fsmithredslim is default for xfce12:21
fsmithredthis is ascii or beowulf?12:21
fsmithredxfce was not the first one?12:22
systemdleteI just barely got ascii installed on this laptop12:22
systemdleteyes, it was, and it was the "default"12:22
fsmithredso slim must have been replaced when you added another (cinnamon?)12:22
systemdleteno, I manually installed lightdm myself actually12:23
fsmithredoh, so then that shouldn't be the cause of all the autoremoves12:23
fsmithredand btw, you may run into other conflicts because the different desktops use different policykit libs.12:24
systemdleteI think xrogaan's explanation pretty much clears it up12:24
systemdleteIIRC, fsmithred, the problem was that when I tried to choose just, say, xfce or maybe a few others as well, the installer croaked12:25
systemdleteor got very angry at me12:25
systemdleteI got caught in a loop where I pretty much had to accept ALL the packages, as is.  I think it did let me drop ssh or something12:25
fsmithredyou chose multiple desktops during the instal?12:26
systemdletebut it was very strict12:26
systemdletemultiple but not all, and again, this was months ago for a different install.12:26
fsmithredwell, let's stick to talking about this install12:26
systemdleteok, but my point is that I wanted to avoid all the fuss.  So I just took the defaults, which gave me a gob of software and a lot of desktops12:27
systemdletewhich is fine.  I have plenty of disk space for them12:27
fsmithredused to be that you could install all the desktops you want. That's not the case in devuan.12:27
systemdlete"used to be?"   Like back in potato days?12:28
fsmithredno, like up until jessie12:29
systemdleteah, I see.12:29
fsmithrednot sure, but maybe you still can do it in debian12:29
systemdletewell anyway, I am manually reinstalling what I want in the autoremove list12:30
fsmithredsee the section on session management and policykit backends:
systemdletebut there are a lot of libraries also12:30
systemdlete(ok, will do, thanks)12:30
fsmithredthe libraries should come in automatically if you install anything that uses them12:30
systemdleteshould... ok12:30
systemdletesounds good to me12:30
systemdletepush comes to shove, I can just reinstall the laptop from scratch, take the 1st attempt as a trial run12:31
systemdleteIt was a pain due to the hw issues with the eMMC (a known issue per numerous internet posts)12:31
systemdleteit's very intermittent12:32
fsmithredoh, I hate intermittent problems12:32
systemdleteme too12:32
systemdletethere ought to be a law.  Bugs should be well-behaved.  None of these "heisenbugs" where the bug disappears when you go looking for it in a debugger.12:32
systemdleteIf your gonna write vexing bugs, at least be respectful to the people who have to de-bug them!12:33
systemdletewe need some order in disorder, really.12:34
fsmithredI agree12:37
systemdleteok, I cleared all that out.   What I did is copy-pasted the list into a vi buffer in bash and arranged to apt install all of them.12:43
systemdleteso now I don't get any more lip from apt12:44
systemdleteI've never used xfinitywifi on a tablet before (I've used it on my android phone though)12:45
systemdleteit works OK, after I figured out which mode to use to connect.  But I have to log in to their network every single time I start a session.12:46
systemdletethis is bothersome.   A security step I suppose, but still pretty annoying.12:46
systemdletethere is no Internet service until I pull up a browser and log in --> the browser prompts me to do that.12:47
fsmithreddoes your xfinity keep track of when you open doors in your home?12:47
systemdleteI don't have xfinity home.  In fact, I don't even have their gateway.  I am using a surfboard modem.12:48
systemdleteI own it.12:48
fsmithredI'm confused. Where does xfinity come into it?12:48
systemdleteI save $10 a month on comcast's already overpriced 60mbps service by not renting their gateway.12:49
fsmithredoh, spectrum only charges $5/month to rent a router12:49
systemdleteI subscribe to xfinity's HSI service; xfinitywifi hotspots are free with the subscription.12:49
fsmithredok, we're drifting OT12:49
fsmithredah, ok12:49
systemdleteso why not take advantage of it.  I just didn't realize it would be a pain.12:50
systemdleteI guess I could use my phone as a hotspot and connect to that instead.  The phone is already all set for xfinititywifi hotspots12:50
systemdleteI always take my phone with me.12:51
systemdleteOT, indeed.  sorry.12:51
systemdletewell, off to test cinnamon -- supposedly it supports touch screen.  We'll see.12:51
james1138Question about Devuan. I see "Epiphany-browser" installed. When I try to remove/purge - it automatically wants to install Firefox-ESR.  Is there anyway to dump Epiphany??16:23
Death_Synsounds like a metapackage is requiring something that provides a web browser16:33
james1138Never mind. I think I did it via terminal - thanx anyway.16:35
fsmithredg4570n, do I know you? Your name looks familar.16:50
g4570nfsmithred: I do not think so, I participate here, in the list and I participated in some corrections in the translation of the documentation in Spanish of devuan17:01
fsmithredok, thanks. I'm probably thinking of a similar name I saw.17:02
fsmithredyou're not aitor, right?17:03
onefangAll 4570's look the same to me.17:03
g4570nfsmithred: no, I'm not aitor 😆 He used to come to # Devuan-MX too, and I haven't seen him participate in the mailing list for a while.17:07
g4570nI know I was focused on the development of simple-netaid17:09
g4570nI know he was focused on the development of simple-netaid* sorry my \bad english17:11
fsmithredhis website is down and he hasn't posted on dng for a few weeks17:17
fsmithredand his email is, so that doesn't work, either.17:17
g4570nit may be that he is away from home for summer vacations17:21
james1138Hello from Indiana/USA. General question about Devuan and mail clients. Besides Evolution, Claws Mail and Thunderbird - are there any other email clients that have calendar and RSS feed support??17:48
sixwheeledbeastIs there a reason to bundle three features into one program?17:50
Wonkawell, receiving invitations to appointments by mail and adding those to the calendar from the mail client can be seen as useful17:54
Wonkahaven't used RSS feeds much, yet17:55
sixwheeledbeastDo one thing and do it well?18:01
james1138Sorry for the delay. Evolution does it ok. But since the upgrade of Evolution mail client - the RSS plugin crashes when I do a "global send & receive". If I update email accounts by themselves - no problem. If I update individual RSS feeds no problem.. If I up18:09
james1138Google search says it is a bug - so I was looking for alternatives to Evolution.18:10
_abc_Erm there's a nasty exim exploit out, gives remote root. Patch or disable exim asap.18:16
hightower3lol exim again18:16
james1138_abc: will update/upgrade exim help?18:17
_abc_It really tries hard to catch up with Outlook servers in features. It's a very nice email server but I'd like to see it simple not complex.18:17
hightower3hm hm, more problems on ppc64le with policykit. Now doesn't want to install xfce4 due to libpolkit-gobject-1-018:18
_abc_james1138: I don't know. The devuan archives may not have the patched package yet.18:18
_abc_james1138: check you have exim version  4.92.2 or later, then you are safe.18:18
james1138I just looked - 4.92.8 - I should be okay18:19
sixwheeledbeastI use Liferea for RSS myself.18:20
hightower3what's a good alternative for a mail server that's not exim nor postfix?18:20
furrywolfsendmail.  :)18:22
james1138sixwheeledbeast... thanx for the tip. If I must - I sooner just go to Thunderbird and install Lighting and RSS plugins instead of completely to separate apps.18:23
sixwheeledbeastI still prefer the do one thing well approach to programs but ok18:24
hightower3looks like there is courier18:24
james1138To my thinking... fewer separate apps mean fewer total dependencies - equals less complexity and fewer demands on system hardware.18:26
sixwheeledbeastIt's not that simple tho, would vary depending on which you use.18:34
* _abc_ would have voted for postfix but it has been like 17 years since I last touched that.18:36
james1138I looked at Claws Mail - OMG!  All the extras that a person need install just to come close to Thunderbird or Evolution - even before considering calendar and RSS support!!18:36
_abc_james1138: does it have massage support? If no, meh.18:36
james1138"massage support" - where is that app?!  Sold!   <grin>18:37
_abc_Boobies on the box are good for sales. Every high performance gear maker knows this.18:38
golinuxAhem . . . please stay on topic18:38
fsmithredI don't think that comment was meant for you, james113818:46
onefangOn my Devuan server I use Courier, coz it does cover all of the email server types.  On my Devuan desktop I use Claws-Mail, but some day I'll test out the text console based email clients and switch to one.  I have already switched RSS from Claws-Mail to Liferea19:09
enyconefang: i have an ongoing old courier arrangement!19:13
enyconefang: I think there are some snags that need fixing in debian courier package, default key sizes oforl ssl or other such annoying niggles19:13
enyconefang: but, it largely behaves!19:14
enyconefang: some like 'mutt' with lots of customization19:14
onefangI've been using it since before I switched to Devuan.19:14
enyconefang: with the 'maildir patch', re-alpine  can be useful, in that it can directly read the courier Maildir , without needing the imapd overhead or re-entering password.19:15
onefangMutt is on my list to check out.  I just have to either get the time to get around to it, or get more annoyed at Claw--Mail. lol19:15
onefangSo is re-alpine.19:16
onefangBut for now, it's 3AM.  I should sleep.19:16
enyconefang: i may tnot be abroun much/ocnsistently  but happy to compare notes on  alpine config19:16
fsmithredis alpine a descendant of pine?19:17
enycfsmithred: yes, changed to apache-license19:17
onefangI think it's pine -> alpine -> re-alpine.19:17
fsmithredmakes sense19:17
* onefang heads to bed.19:18
enycfsmithred: unfortunately, lots of useful alpine patches, provided by  Eduardo Chappa ,  hasn't/won't/etc release under apache license, and so  aren't in debian package19:18
fsmithredtoo bad19:19
_abc_alpine is/was under some University license, no?19:22
_abc_alpine is the descendent of pine, a rewrite by the same people iirc. re-alpine may not be19:22
_abc_I used pine for email client for about 10 years 1990s-200s19:23
_abc_pine is probably a great example for why one should not use an ascii menu program for complex things. At the end the config screens were interminable and the probability to get everything right tended towards zero.19:24
_abc_I did not get to use re-alipine19:25
enyc_abc_: pine was uni license whatnot, alpine is when it became apache-license19:25
enyctranspires, re-alpine died, and debian package follows alpine ;p19:25 for pine and alpine, then forked on sourceforge in 2009 as re-alpine19:26
enyc  as the patches e.g. bmaildir,  that work ontop of debian package,  have rebuilt with maildir for example.19:26
_abc_ does not contain the word 'license'19:27
MinceRinb4 someone forks re-alpine and calls it unre-alpine20:09
_abc_At this point the best way to improve re(n)-alpine in my opinion is to simply rewrite it from scratch in the spirit of old old alpine, which was simple and easy to set up and hda a small options screen (relatively speaking)20:11
_abc_Perhaps someone nostalgic for the old times will do it.20:12
_abc_I never understood why these programs were ever ported to windows. Who would use alpine on windows?20:13
_abc_And I confused with Old pine was created at and had a suitable license from them. I believe they used it on their own campus etc.20:14
_abc_It's still alive just hard to find, the original project:
golinux_abc_: #debianfork is for non-Devuan support related chat.  ;)20:25
_abc_well said golinux21:24
james1138General Devuan question. Any suggestions for a "startup disk creator" for USB??  I do not see UNetbootin or anything like that in the repos so far.22:42
gnarfacejames1138: you don't need unetbootin anymore.  most machines made after about 2006 should be capable of booting a USB key as a regular harddrive, so you can literally just install to USB now with the normal installer and then boot from it22:47
james1138Sorry gnarface: I meant make my own USB boot from ISO.22:47
gnarfacethere are devuan live images available too though if you want something a little more static22:48
gnarfacei'm not sure what you mean by making USB boot from ISO... you can do that with something like the grub boot iso and chainload to USB , but like i said it should not be necessary anymore22:48
gnarfacethe existing devuan iso images are all iso-hybrid, which means they'll work on optical or USB22:49
gnarface(or anything really - but remember, BIOS support required)22:49
james1138Humm I thought to copy a ISO to usb to make it into a boot disk required something like unetbootin22:50
gnarfacefor the old basic ISOs that was true.  someone came up with a new trick22:50
gnarfaceseveral years ago now actually i think22:51
gnarfacethey call it "iso-hybrid"22:51
gnarfacebut pretty much all linux distros' ISO images default to that setup now22:51
gnarfacebasically just dd the ISO to a USB key and try it22:52
gnarfaceit should work22:52
gnarfacethe newest machine i've got that can't do this is a pentium II22:53
gnarface(its BIOS only supports USB keys formatted as floppy disks)22:53
gnarfaceunetbootin should ostensibly still work but it hasn't gotten any easier to use or any better supported since it is basically not needed anymore except for really legacy hardware22:54
james1138Ahh okay... one of the reasons I ask is that when I tried unbootin - it was going to also install syslinux and syslinux-common and I did not know if that was good ot bad.22:56
gnarfaceyou don't need any of that shit now22:57
gnarfacejust dd and some patience22:57
james1138what is "dd" is that a command or an actual application?22:59
gnarfacei don't see a meaningful distinction between those two terms but i assume you mean to ask whether it is a graphical application or a console application.  it is a console application.23:00
gnarfacebut it is really easy to use23:01
gnarfacedd if=[input file] of=[output file]23:01
james1138ahh  ok23:01
gnarfacejust be really careful you don't accidentally put the wrong thing for output file23:01
gnarfacethere is no safety23:02
gnarfaceit will overwrite anything you point it at without hesitation23:02
gnarfaceincluding physical hardware23:02
gnarfaceso [input file] would be the ISO here, and [output file] would be the /dev/whatever file that represents the physical disk (USB key or harddrive, it doesn't care) you are trying to write to23:03
gnarfaceand it won't hesitate to overwrite your install if you point it at the wrong disk23:03
gnarfaceso you know, make sure you double check and don't point it at your face :)23:03
james1138Playing a "little" safe - found a GUI front-end for DD to help reduce my making MAJOR problems...‘dd’-command-with-a-simple-gui/23:08
specingjust read its manpage and you'll be safe23:09
fsmithredanything between me and dd sounds scary23:12
fsmithredI want to see it with my own eyes23:13
fsmithredusually after I see the output of dmesg23:13
golinuxEven I can dd (with sweaty palms though)23:16
james1138golinux:  I am not as good or as surefooted as you are around stuff like dd....   ;D23:17
golinuxDo not make assumptions.  ;)23:18

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