freenode/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2019-10-30

* jordila umh... long life lightweihght humble Desktops like Lxde, Xfce... ?00:18
masonminnesotags1: netplan is a bit painful and seems wholly unnecessary01:06
TwistedFategah04:12
TwistedFatemy updates keep getting kept back04:12
TwistedFateand it breaks qemu for me04:12
tuxd3vgolinux: its there a option to have fluxbox 1.3.7 into devuan?04:22
tuxd3vthe vesrion that is in the repos( 1.3.5 ) are dated from 2013..04:22
tuxd3valso the current version( 1.3.5 ), have some modules missing line the 'conman'..04:23
golinuxtuxd3v: Doesn't look like any time soon: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=fluxbox&release=any04:40
tuxd3vgolinux: thanks, it would be nice to have the release 1.3.7..04:57
golinuxWhenever Debian gets it we'll get it.04:57
golinuxI suppose you could try to compile it yourself04:58
tuxd3vyep, that is the last resort..05:00
tuxd3vI don't know how to make the deb packages, if not I would do it..05:00
masontuxd3v: There are decent instructions out there for handcrafting backports.05:20
masontuxd3v: I'd recommend grabbing the 1.3.7 package from Debian experimental, or the source thereof, and building it against your ASCII or whatever: https://packages.debian.org/experimental/fluxbox05:22
masontuxd3v: Alternately, you can always just do a local install, and maybe even manage it with GNU Stow: https://www.gnu.org/software/stow/05:23
tuxd3vmason: thanks for the advice, that is an alternative indeed, maybe the fast one..05:26
masontuxd3v: Building their source package should be quick and easy. Let me find some instructions...05:26
tuxd3vI mean getting them from debian repos..05:26
tuxd3vAnother one is getting the sources for that packages and then handcraft the packages..05:27
masonWell. Debian's got it for *experimental* which means it'll very likely want newer libraries than what you've got. You probably can't [or at least don't want to] use the binary package straight.05:27
masonHere's a fairly minimal set of instructions: https://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/12/15/howto-to-rebuild-debian-packages/05:28
masonYou'd want to download the source package directly, as we don't have that repo as far as I know, but step two and forward should apply more or less directly.05:29
masontuxd3v: ^ for the highlight, sorry05:30
golinuxAnd this is a classic: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3897605:33
tuxd3vmason: no problem05:39
tuxd3vthat was indeed the Idea :), to build them from sources, in that way, I don't need to manage packages outside the system package manager05:41
tuxd3vI will check the dependencies of them( if they have not a so  big dependency chain )05:42
tuxd3vthanks for the advice on that to both of you :)05:43
masontuxd3v: The link to the experimental package page lists the dependencies.05:43
masontuxd3v: If you hit a snag with something new that doesn't exist in your target environment, also snag what Devuan ships and compare that source package. It ought to be pretty straightforward shimming the newer Fluxbox into the existing package framework if you need to - Fluxbox is light by design and definition.05:45
masonI might try switching to it this week, while I'm on vacation. Been using Openbox for years, and I'd like my WM to manage tabs for me so I can stop using the rxvt-unicode tabbed mode.05:46
masonPlus, Openbox config is XML, and ew.05:47
tuxd3vyeah it uses very low resources.. for ARM it his even more superb due to the low specs requirements.. :)05:48
masonI used to run twm for that reason.05:49
tuxd3vI didn't knew twm05:52
masonLighter still.05:52
tuxd3vfor me fluxbox, is a very good choice nowadays, were computers have Ram in the GB scale05:53
tuxd3veven tought the browsers will eat almost all of it :D05:53
tuxd3vI hd used fvwm, which is very nice05:54
tuxd3vI have been kidding for some days with fluxbox again, and using slim and slimlock to login and lock session, and it works nicely05:56
tuxd3vOpenBox is what I call, the minimum amount of resources for some comfortable functionality06:16
tuxd3vFluxbox uses more resources than openbox06:17
tuxd3vbut I think it also has extra features with, but for the extra features, it should consume a bit less memory to be in line with openbox eficiency.. but is still light06:18
HumI prefer dwm. In the beginning it was uncomfortable, but as I got used to it, I was the best one I have had. In past I also used icewm.08:12
zatumilsuckless wmii is great09:11
MinceRfvwm is great09:21
zatumildebian voting on init systems again, just as brexit lol09:26
tarzeauzatumil: really?09:34
tarzeauand systemd will be an non-default option?09:34
tarzeauTEH BEST NEWS FOR THE LAST DECADE OF YEARS09:35
zatumildpl wants a gr09:35
tarzeauhttps://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003 where's the new gr?09:35
zatumilhttps://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2019/10/msg00002.html09:37
MinceRi wouldn't trust it to stay that way even if they did09:49
MinceRthey could pull another jessie anytime09:49
MinceRalso, they haven't got rid of the redhat/ibm moles09:49
MinceRmail sounds more like "waaah, waaaah, maintaining a distro is too much work"09:58
MinceRthey might as well just rebrand a fedora iso and call it a day09:58
tarzeauzatumil: thanks for the link10:33
init2winitanyone know if there are images for devuan arm and how well they work? or...voice me on devuan-arm?15:11
init2winitim not registered and cannot join15:11
init2winitlike recent images, not from last summer, even if alpha15:12
tuxd3vinit2winit: yeas there are see this link:15:36
tuxd3vhttps://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/15:36
tuxd3vascii images, they work as expected, I only tested some15:36
tuxd3vbut they should work as expected..15:37
tuxd3vsee the:15:38
tuxd3vhttps://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/README.txt15:38
tuxd3vfor a more detailed information..15:38
init2winitty tuxd3v but I was hoping for a fresher alpha...ive seen the librem5 on the d1g forum though, so the only major SoC I would like to see is rock64 rk3328 (which may also work for rk3399 which manjaro images seem to be able to target both at the same time, and maybe rk3288)15:45
init2winit  especially in light of the latest point release this week 2.1 ascii15:49
tuxd3vrk3288 are cortex-a1715:51
tuxd3vthey are armv715:51
tuxd3vnot armv815:51
tuxd3vso to have a image that target the 3 you would be working in 32 bits mode15:51
tuxd3vrk3328 and rk3399 are armv815:53
tuxd3vby other words, rk3288 is aarch3215:53
tuxd3vrk 3328,3399 are aarch6415:53
tuxd3vI haven't saw librem5 in d1g15:54
tuxd3vcan you post the link?15:54
tuxd3v:)15:54
tuxd3vI got it ! :))15:56
init2winitBig appreciation to everyone for the point release though, 1 year was starting to be much to update15:59
init2winiti personally dont need 3288, although some people might like how open the c201 is. But I really like 4gb ram on the pine64 arm64 rockchips as I said above16:01
golinuxinit2winit: The Devuan arm pipeline has pretty much ground to a halt.  Perhaps you could build your own with the SDK: https://devuan.org/os/distro-kit16:41
golinuxThere is a version specifically for arm.16:42
golinuxPerhaps you could build and submit images to Devuan?16:47
init2winitgolinux, if I can be invited into devuan arm I might ask relevant questions I cant find answers to online to the right people...16:48
golinuxUnfortunately, I have no control over that.16:49
init2winiti may, I have a 2-3 year x64, not sure how efficient, but maybe I can build a base from which others with the appropriate armservers or better x64 hw can compile the rest16:49
golinuxPerhaps query danielinux.16:50
init2winitcan you msg parazyd? is he still the one in charge of arm port? I literally cannot msg him either to ask16:50
golinuxHe is currently non-responsive to devuan.16:50
golinuxdanielinux is attempting to put something together and kramer also16:51
init2winitparazyd is MIA for everyone you mean?16:55
init2winitok...16:55
golinuxHave no idea.  Just not communicating with us atm.17:06
tuxd3vI can help in my spare time with rockpi4,rockpro64,nanopi fire 3( seems impossible..but it deserves a try.. ), orangepi one plus,Olimex Lime217:08
tuxd3vI am building my builder17:08
tuxd3vI didn't knew that parazyd was away..17:10
tuxd3vhe his a very nice person17:10
init2winithow big is userbase/demand/downloadnumbers for arm?17:24
init2winitgolinux, in case he didnt msg you parazyd told me hes too busy these days17:24
golinuxWe all have our priorities.17:26
golinuxI cannot remember the last time he communicated with me17:26
init2winitgolinux, wwho you think would know what the download stats are for the arm images? like which devices images are downloaded more frequently, at least on devuan controlled mirrors?21:05
init2winitI also want to know which devices to buy or otherwise get, so as to have a bigger community using a device21:06
init2winit(or image)21:06
masoninit2winit: RPi is the most popular by headcount.22:15
gnarfacethat's true of the greater ARM community, but is it true about devuan too?22:16
gnarfacei imagine most of the Pis in the wild are running raspbian22:17
gnarfacespeaking of which, if you're having trouble getting a Onkyo receiver to see the HDMI output of a RPi, try actually playing audio from it first.  force hdmi hotplug and force hdmi audio flags in the config.txt don't help.22:18
init2winitmason can you send the pine devices numbers?22:19
gnarfacenothing helped until i actually ran speaker-test then the receiver recognized it immediately22:19
init2winitor basically allwinner22:20
init2winit(sunxi)22:20
gnarfaceall told, AllWinner/sunxi hardware might outnumber RPi hardware in the wild, because of the huge proliferation of their devices22:21
tuxd3vI believe that Olinuxino Lime2, raspberry pi's( several versions ), rock64, rockpi4, are some of the boards22:22
init2winitmason were you speaking based on hard download stats for devuan, or in general?22:22
tuxd3vbut yeah sunxi boards there are plenty22:22
gnarfacei like them a lot more, just because they're not so bandwidth constrained as the RPi hardware22:23
gnarfacewell, not only because of that, but that's a big deal if you're trying to get work done22:23
masoninit2winit: Sorry, was drawn away. General numbers, observing interest across a number of platforms.22:24
masoninit2winit: I don't think there's any special about #devuan-arm, so maybe you just need to be registered?22:24
masons/any/&thing/22:24
masonbbiab22:25
specinggnarface: but the most of that hardware is at landfills, lol22:25
specing(sunxi)22:25
gnarfacespecing: that may be true, but the other thing that is true about it is that it's priced to throw away - which not always but in this case means a better value for the amount of performance you get22:26
tuxd3vIF I would go to buy one, I would choose maybe a rockpi4, or a raspberry pi4 for starting with..22:26
gnarfacespecing: ... well at least with the stuff from pine64, anyway.  i can't speak for pricing on other vendors' sunxi stuff22:27
specinggnarface: it is not priced to throw away, the quality is garbage22:27
tuxd3vthe rockpi4A costs 35 dollars, and has mpcie extra BUT for the 1GB Ram version22:27
init2winityes reg is required, but I find it overkill for small projects like devuan where there are few users and no (current) spam storms - shields can go up at times, but the weather is nice most days of the year22:27
tuxd3vits a rk3399 inside :)22:27
gnarfacespecing: well, quality control isn't quite at Broadcom levels for the hardware, but on the other hand quality control for the firmware is superior.  there are honest tradeoffs22:27
init2winitspamweather*22:27
tuxd3vAlso, they are investing in opensource mesa-panfrost driver..22:28
tuxd3vwhich will also  benefit otherboards out there22:29
specingAre there any arm boards out there that have [SO]DIMM slots and don't cost several thousand $?22:29
gnarfaceheh, lemme know if you find one22:29
specingold thinkpads at <$100 a pop are very competitive to this arm garbage22:30
gnarfaceyes, as long as your electricity is free22:30
specingthey don't use much22:30
specing15W average22:30
gnarface15?  i think more like 3022:30
specingno, 15. I have several22:30
init2winitHow would devuan fare if debian drops elogind/init-freedom in their upcoming vote?22:31
specingat 15 W average that is 13 euros in yearly electricity22:31
specingutterly insignificant22:31
gnarfacespecing: that's still like twice what pine64 stuff uses under load22:31
gnarfaceit adds up if you're building a cluster22:31
specinggnarface: half of that power use is by screen, which pine64 does not have?22:32
gnarfacespecing: some of them have screens22:32
specing14-15"?22:32
gnarfacespecing: 14" and 11"22:32
gnarfaceand they have a phone, a tablet, and a smartwatch coming soon22:32
gnarfacethey just put out their 3rd netbook model22:33
specingnice22:33
gnarfacethe real issue is the good video drivers aren't done yet.  once those are done, they will be able to do 4k video decoding22:33
gnarfaceyou won't get a 100$ thinkpad to do that22:34
specingWhy would I want that? I'm not a consumer to watch 4k videos22:34
specingthe whole video decoder is a waste of wafer22:35
gnarfaceeh, it's just something lots of people are interested in getting these days, and that would definitely be a floor-shattering event on the entry cost for it22:36
init2winitgnarface, which 3rd netbook? after the pinebookpro? I see nothing on their blog22:36
gnarfacei'll admit the thing about the thinkpad having a real PCI bus is a strong advantage22:36
specingI know, that is why there is such proliferation of the garbage hardware22:36
specingMy use of ARM ends at cortex-m722:37
gnarfaceinit2winit: (there were 2 pinebooks before the "pro" model, a 14" and a 11" model.  there was also a limited run of the 11" ones with 1080p screens)22:37
specingIf it needs to run a real operating system then ARM is no-go22:37
gnarfaceeh, my experience with the raspberry pi was very disappointing, but so far the pine64 hardware is holding it's ground22:38
init2winitthats reassuring gnarface im looking to get/use many of their devices22:38
gnarfacehaving ram expansion options would be nice, but it's not like you're gonna get more than 4GB in a thinkpad either22:38
specinggnarface: I have 8GB in thinkpad22:39
gnarfacespecing: not one you got for 100$, surely22:39
specingyes, the $100 ones22:39
specinggood luck finding an arm device with more than 4GB22:39
specingand its always soldered22:39
specingyuck22:40
specingthey still haven't reached core2duo22:40
init2winitgnarface, for 8gb arm, there is a seco and armstone i.mx8m devices. But not very polished for linux yet. Maybe we should ask them for free devices for devuan devs? or deeply discounted so we port to it?22:40
init2winitspecing - see above22:40
specinginit2winit: this is another problem of arm, that each individual device needs individual polishing22:41
init2winitthese are the same chips as librem5 so they should get good support in the long run, mainlining etc22:41
specingI maintain that purism is a scam22:41
gnarfacethe mainlining progress on the pine64 hardware has been rapid over the last year22:41
init2winitspecing see ebbr and uefi to make arm images run everywhere22:41
specinguefi? yuck22:42
init2winitive not seen these universal images yet mentioned though in practice22:42
specingno idea what ebbr is but it can't be good22:42
init2winitnow your just being blindly negative maybe open your mindset a little and reduce your emotional involvement in the argument22:42
init2winitspecing,22:43
specingSadly I am experienced22:43
gnarfacealright alright, everyone calm down.  none of this matters that much22:43
init2winitspecing also see the synquacer arm server - 64gb ram...i dont think its soldered22:44
specingeverything about SoC ARM so far has been disappointing, so I'm assuming everything in the future will also be dissapointing22:44
gnarfaceone thing the pine64 hardware has that i can't speak for anywhere else on multi-core systems is complete immunity to spectre&meltdown type predictive branching exploits22:44
specinginit2winit: I know there are ARM servers out there, they cost thousands and nobody supports them22:44
specingthere are also SoC-FPGA boards for $$$+22:45
init2winiti cant say much about support, but debian stretch image exists for the synquacer, which means devuan should be a relatively easy port, and it costs 900-1500usd last I checked - the price is on 96boards website (and on a link there )22:46
specingLOOK at this rich peripheral set https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Edge-Server-Synquacer-Series-E.jpg22:46
specingthe stm32f072 for $1.5 that I have on my desk right now has more IO than that $1250 server!22:46
specingfor that money I'd just add $500 more and get a Talos22:47
specingHaha it doesen't even have ECC ram22:48
specingis this a joke22:48
specing(the finished system, the mobo appears to support it)22:48

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