| rwp | JFTR but anyone who logs in as root gets /sbin:/usr/sbin in PATH okay. No problem. It's only people who "su" instead of "su -" who get exactly what they asked for but not what they wanted. | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| fsmithred | I've never known debian to include sbins in user's default path | 00:03 |
| joerg | :nod: | 00:05 |
| rrq | I guess it's a choice that belongs to distributions and/or desktop environments; imo any such that wants to foster a DIY community should have /usr/sbin and /sbin in user's PATH | 00:07 |
| joerg | there's /etc/skel for that, no? | 00:09 |
| fsmithred | yeah, that would be a good place to set it for all users | 00:10 |
| rwp | I just did a quick look and other than ping and ip I don't see any utilities in /sbin:/usr/sbin that are generally useful for users. | 00:10 |
| rwp | The rest need root permission to run. | 00:10 |
| rwp | Though I am sure there is at least one more that I did not see that would also be useful to mere mortals. | 00:11 |
| rwp | Oh, /sbin/ip is simply a symlink to /bin/ip so good there. It's only /sbin/ping which should be in /bin/ping for users. | 00:12 |
| rrq | ifconfig? | 00:13 |
| rwp | Linux has strongly moved away from ifconfig and over to ip. | 00:13 |
| rrq | mkfs.ext4 | 00:13 |
| rrq | swapon | 00:14 |
| rrq | dmsetup | 00:14 |
| rwp | Now you are simply teasing! Those are not useful without superuser permissions. | 00:14 |
| rrq | sorry? | 00:14 |
| rrq | why are they not useful? just because there are some things done with them that require root? | 00:15 |
| rwp | A non-root user will be blocked by permissions from running swapon, dmsetup, mkfs, and so forth. | 00:15 |
| rrq | so a user cannot make a file system on a file? | 00:15 |
| rwp | Is that possible? I don't think I have ever tried it as a non-root user. And once I did have a file containing a file system. What would I do with it? | 00:16 |
| rrq | run qemu for example | 00:16 |
| rwp | And if I am such an expert and advanced user is it such a bad expectation to expect that I would easily know those utilities are in one of the sbins? | 00:17 |
| rrq | yes there is no good excuse trying to hide programs for users even when those programs require permissions for doing things | 00:17 |
| rwp | It would be like a world class sprinter who cannot tie their own shoes. | 00:18 |
| rwp | Honestly for ping along I also always put /sbin:/usr/sbin in my PATH. And unsurprisingly nothing prevents me from doing this. Because I know ping works for me as non-root. | 00:19 |
| rwp | s/for ping along/for ping alone/ It's really not a hardship. | 00:19 |
| rrq | the attempt of "hiding" the programs causes confusion and division between "stupid users" and "wizard administrators" | 00:20 |
| rwp | Meanwhile I find it hard to believe that users who can't figure out where mkfs should be called would be successful in creating a file based file system and launching qemu upon it all successfully when having untied shoe laces are what is stopping them from winning the foot race. | 00:21 |
| rwp | It's never been about hiding. If it was about hiding then the permissions on /sbin would be drwx------ instead of drwxr-xr-x but it has been about organizing. | 00:22 |
| rwp | Basically it is the UsrMerge argument all over again. Let's have exactly one bucket, it will be a big bucket, and it will hold EVERYTHING. | 00:23 |
| rrq | no that's something else | 00:24 |
| rrq | with PATH you "organize" the user population into A and B classes | 00:25 |
| rrq | with file paths you organize files | 00:25 |
| fluffywolf | it took me a second to realize that was a conversation between two people and not a wall of text. | 01:23 |
| joerg | ping is in /bin/ or /usr/bin/ on all my boxes, and no, it's not a symlink, neither a hardlink | 01:33 |
| joerg | rwp: >>not about hiding… about organizing…<< full ack | 01:34 |
| joerg | I never understood the weird concept of asking for USER password (if any) for a `sudo mkfs …`. And for what else than a `sudo` would you want man group 8 stuff in regular users' default PATH? I don't think that's "hiding" or user classes other than the natural root vs user capabilities | 01:40 |
| joerg | loosely related: https://termbin.com/k7iz (usually I got a link to /sbin/hwclock in my own (jr) ~/bin/, and device permissions set accordingly) | 01:51 |
| joerg | sorry, s/group 8/SECTION 8/ >>System administration commands (usually only for root)<< | 02:22 |
| rwp | It looks like ping moved. In Stretch where I was looking it was in /sbin/ping but in Chimaera it is in /bin/ping and somewhere in between it was moved. | 07:09 |
| rwp | So all good! Don't know any reason someone needs /sbin:/usr/sbin in their PATH unless they have supersuper permissions. | 07:10 |
| onefang | And traceroute? | 07:14 |
| rwp | traceroute is in /usr/bin/traceroute and available to non-root. | 07:16 |
| onefang | I recall it was root only at some stage. | 07:17 |
| rwp | "traceroute -I" is the best way using ICMP packets and that requires root so I always run it "sudo traceroute -I example.com". | 07:21 |
| rwp | But without root permissions it will use UDP which works too | 07:22 |
| rwp | but not all routers handle UDP at a priority that they don't get dropped under load and so sometimes non-root sees false or confusing information. | 07:22 |
| rwp | UDP should be okay when not overloaded though. | 07:22 |
| onefang | My recollection of it being root only is why I now have the habit of only using it as root. Just checked and indeed non root can use it in Chimeara. | 07:23 |
| onefang | I'll try to change my habit. lol | 07:24 |
| rwp | Some things with traceroute need superuser permissions and if so it will tell you. Try "traceroute -I example.com" as non-root for one example. | 07:24 |
| rwp | "socket: Operation not permitted" and "You do not have enough privileges to use this traceroute method." | 07:25 |
| rwp | IIRC nmap is similar too. | 07:25 |
| onefang | I don't use nmap enough to have formed habits. | 07:26 |
| rwp | I use "nmap -F myothersystem" quote often when looking at firewall rules or if daemons are running or other useful external probing information. | 07:27 |
| rwp | s/quote/quite/ often. Drat but my typos are getting worse. And even a spell checker doesn't catch that. Do I need to run everything through chatGPT?! | 07:27 |
| onefang | I started learning MIDI keyboard+drum pads on New Years Eve, and the best place for putting the two octave keyboard is where I usually put my typing keyboard, so now I have to move that elsewhere. Trying to get used to that and making more typoes when I'm in music making configuration. lol | 07:29 |
| rwp | I must be plugged directly in front of the keyboard with a good sitting position. Trying to do things offset and not lined up I definitely might accidentally type in a perl script by mistake. | 07:30 |
| Guest42 | Hello! My new Chimaera installation with full disk encryption on Libreboot keeps freezing at Loading initial ramdisk. What can I do? | 18:22 |
| gnarface | you sure it's not just taking a while to decrypt? | 18:28 |
| gnarface | i'm not really sure how long it should take, but how long did you wait? | 18:28 |
| fsmithred | and does it ask for the password before an after the grub menu? | 18:30 |
| fsmithred | an/and | 18:31 |
| Guest42 | It doesn't ask for the password. I've had set ups like this with proprietary firmware. The installer doesn't encrypt /boot, so I think it's hanging, I can't switch the TTYs, the frame buffer GUI is stuck in small resolution, if I boot it differently from Coreboot then the frame buffer GUI will be full screen but my keymap is completely messed up | 18:35 |
| gnarface | hmm, maybe this is something about that CRYPTSETUP variable not being set or whatever that was? | 18:35 |
| gnarface | i think unencrypted /boot is the normal setup | 18:36 |
| gnarface | failing to load drivers because it's not decrypting the rest seems like a likely cause for the framebuffer settings missing | 18:36 |
| Guest42 | Yes, with unencrypted /boot I shouldn't need grub ENABLE_CRYPTODISK | 18:36 |
| Guest42 | I tried installing with targeted drivers and generic drivers | 18:37 |
| gnarface | no it was a different environment variable i was thinking of, though i'm still not sure i'm right about that being the problem | 18:37 |
| Guest42 | OK, thank you! | 18:39 |
| gnarface | maybe they just changed it or something but look for an environment variable with CRYPTSETUP as a substring, or something like it | 18:40 |
| Guest42 | Can I do that from Grub? | 18:46 |
| gnarface | if i recall, it was grub that you were supposed to set that in, yes | 18:46 |
| fsmithred | that's if /boot is encrypted | 18:50 |
| gnarface | oh | 18:50 |
| fsmithred | um... cryptsetup-initramfs must be installed. I think I've seen that missing somewhere. | 18:51 |
| fsmithred | but I don't think that should be the problem is the encryption was done in the regular installer. | 18:52 |
| joerg | alias mtr='sudo /usr/sbin/mtr' | 18:55 |
| gnarface | any chance libreboot has something to do with this? | 18:55 |
| Guest42 | There aren't any CRYPT settings in the boot options. I went into Grub and I'm searching how to print environment variables 😂 | 19:06 |
| gnarface | Guest42: fsmithred mentioned you might also be missing cryptsetup-initramfs | 19:11 |
| Guest42 | I'll check | 19:17 |
| Guest42 | Would I have to mount my encrypted volume and decrypt it on a live USB to check? | 19:22 |
| gnarface | uh... i think so? | 19:22 |
| gnarface | i seem to recall you might have to mount and chroot in or something, but i'm vague on that | 19:23 |
| gnarface | fsmithred: you have to mount and chroot in from a livecd to fix this right? | 19:23 |
| Guest42 | Yeah I think I do, I'm stuck on Grub and it's not reading my LVM, I'm going to try this with a Daedalus installation, the Chimaera installer is almost 2 years old | 19:27 |
| gnarface | it's supposed to work but there are some gotchas and corner-cases i guess still | 19:28 |
| gnarface | is it actually the latest available version of the chimaera installer that you tried this with? | 19:28 |
| Guest42 | Yes, the latest amd 64 server iso from the Devuan archive for Chimaera 4.0 is from 10/12/2021 | 19:30 |
| Guest42 | I think this issue also has to do with Libreboot, the only OS I could get to boot into a graphical session was MX Linux | 19:31 |
| gnarface | i have no idea but it seems possible | 19:32 |
| gnarface | i couldn't say whether that means a bug in libreboot or devuan though | 19:32 |
| Guest42 | MX Linux worked but AntiX Linux didn't, I think that's weird | 19:32 |
| Guest42 | I think it's more of a Libreboot probem because I didn't have these issues with other OS's on proprietary firmware | 19:34 |
| fsmithred | sorry, I was afk. Yeah, you'd have to chroot in from a live session to add software or do other things with it. | 19:39 |
| Guest42 | I didn't have this problem with the Chimaera installation but with the Daedalus installation I did bhttps://libreboot.org/docs/misc/#high-pitched-whining-noise-on-idle-in-debian-or-devuan | 19:56 |
| gnarface | seems likely to be a kernel issue | 19:57 |
| gnarface | hmm, i'm not sure what the non-systemd equivalent to powertop would be | 19:58 |
| gnarface | oh, no maybe powertop is there still | 19:58 |
| gnarface | does the mentioned fix there still work without systemd? | 19:59 |
| gnarface | if you install powertop? | 19:59 |
| Guest42 | I'll try that after I see if I can boot from Daedalus | 19:59 |
| Guest42 | I executed a shell and typed poweroff after I finished my installation and my screen didn't turn off 😂 My Daedalus installation also freezes at Loading initial ramdisk | 20:12 |
| * golinux may stay on chimeara for the rest of this lifetime . . | 20:14 | |
| brocashelm | golinux: that's a wise choice. i plan on going back to ascii/beowulf hybrid | 21:52 |
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