libera/#neo900/ Friday, 2019-02-22

DocScrutinizer05I don't think it's useful for anybody or anything meanwhile00:00
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless thank you for the thanks00:01
norlyi think that *someone* needs to take the step00:03
DocScrutinizer05maybe I could contribute useful to fixing i.MX8M power consumption issues. That's at least one topic where I seem to have knowledge that might help improve things and result into sth useful00:10
DocScrutinizer05thanks to my very early focus on event driven architecture, combined with always doing hw system development00:11
DocScrutinizer05or I go for doing farmer00:13
norlysince (as you said yourself) the market is small, i think it makes sense to consider joining forces with the purism project00:15
norlyin some way, it sounds a lot like STEP2, doesn't it?00:15
norlyand maybe that project can then feed back into Neo90000:16
norlyafter all, it still doesn't provide a phone with hackerbus and hardware keyboard00:16
norlyboth phones have their use cases00:16
Joerg-Neo900>>joining forces with the purism project<< been tried several times, and meanwhile not on my list of things I want to do anymore00:17
norlyoh no, i'm sad to hear it didn't work :(00:17
Joerg-Neo900their CTO(?) Bob Ham never had a particularly friendly attitude towards Openmoko, Nikolaus / GolDeliCo, and me00:18
norlyhow about the pyra? is there still an exchange of knowledge with that project?00:19
Joerg-Neo900let alone Purism now performingf massively sub-par on exactly the topics he used to bash us00:19
Joerg-Neo900all knowledge with Pyra been exachanged already, and I think not much new knowledge came up regarding PYra00:20
Joerg-Neo900it's a pity they also don't ship yet00:20
Joerg-Neo900and I'm tired to follow that thread of reality on a daily basis00:22
norlyyeah, all these projects drag on00:24
norlyat least pyra seems to near completion. it'll be done real soon (TM), in 2 months (TM)00:24
norlyso it's not impossible00:25
paul_boddieEspecially since it was already said, thanks from me for your efforts, Joerg!00:29
norlyyes, really00:29
norlywhat's the status on neo900 anyway? it's been near completion years ago it seemed00:30
paul_boddieThe work done on Neo900 is considerable, and if only I could think of a way of moving it forward.00:31
norlyyeah, that would be amazing00:32
paul_boddienorly: I think the problem was mainly getting a layout done.00:32
paul_boddieAnd I share Joerg's views on the modern world, smartphones and surveillance gadgets.00:33
paul_boddieThat people are now happy to plant gadgets with microphones and cameras in their houses and think that such things are only enabled if they say "OK Google" or whatever.00:33
Joerg-Neo900we have an insurmountable deadlock, comnsisting of lack of layoutr to show off a working prototype, lack of preorders due to missng prototype to show off, and impossible sourcing of "mech parts" like display, sliders. etc, even if we could suddenly generate a 400 more preorders. So the project is in a massive zombie state with very little hope to get revived without massive changes in design and concept00:35
paul_boddieIt's difficult to take a different path when everyone else is happy to take surveillance money.00:35
paul_boddieI did wonder whether a different "core" board would be a starting point. Things change and even Nikolaus realised this after doing his Cortex 8 board and seeing that the PocketBeagle was practically the same.00:39
Joerg-Neo900there were two opportunities to carry on with STEP2 with partners, at beginning of last year. Both evaporated into nonsensical requirements either regarding HR or limit of available funds. Since then I think there's a better futer elsewhere for me00:39
paul_boddieI guess the problem with Neo900 is the physical constraints, so it's not like the ZeroPhone where things just get stacked up and the casework is done at the end.00:41
paul_boddieNot that I should really say anything about that without looking more closely at it.00:42
paul_boddieAnyway, I'll look through the Neo900 documents again soon. I made sure to download many of them the other day.00:42
Joerg-Neo900paul_boddie: yes, that's part of the problem, the case00:43
Joerg-Neo900but in the end the *only* problem is funding00:44
paul_boddieIn principle, reusing the N900 case is a good move given how expensive casework is to get made.00:44
paul_boddieMy perception is that there's some demand for a genuinely open phone, but people get easily distracted and buy the latest shiny Samsung instead.00:45
Joerg-Neo900fund was "give us the better fraction of a million and we're talking". Now that evolved into "give us a low 1 digit number of millions and we can accomplish something for sure"00:46
paul_boddieThen there's a demand for a secure phone, but this attracts all sorts of Jason Bourne imitators and people who don't care about the openness.00:46
Joerg-Neo900paul_boddie: excellent analysis00:47
Joerg-Neo900andd to the "secure" domain those like purism who think security is a hardware switch00:48
paul_boddieSo the two groups don't really overlap. Or at least the pretend Jason Bourne group doesn't really understand the issues.00:48
Joerg-Neo900add to*00:48
paul_boddieThe real Jason Bourne group have access to all sorts of top secret stuff, I would think. ;-)00:48
Joerg-Neo900there's the professional security domain where devices cost a 2l or 4k or more. Those DO understand security... sometimes00:49
Joerg-Neo900think blackphone etc00:50
bencohplease tell me you don't really think the blackphone is a seriously "secured" phone00:50
bencohI know you know better :)00:51
Joerg-Neo900no, definitely not00:51
bencohpfew :)00:51
Joerg-Neo900they aimed at that, and failed miserably despite being highly professional00:51
Joerg-Neo900because they came with a software-only perspective and had no clue about hw00:52
paul_boddieThere was an amusing anecdote about hardware testing on Bunnie's blog involving a power switch which didn't work in the final product.00:52
paul_boddieURL (animated images, CPU intensive):
paul_boddieAnyway, I need to go. Keep up the good work, Joerg and company!00:53
* Joerg-Neo900 waves00:54
xmnIt suck when your ahead of the trends, but then it passes you by when you can get past road blocks. Now it's trendy to say your security focus. It's also unfortunate if purism didn't see any value in working together. Would be a great question to ask the ceo on one of these podcast he seem to be on a lot these days.00:59
Joerg-Neo900HAHA  yeah   >>Thus, in order for the factory to meet the product designer’s expectation of low labor cost with simultaneously high quality, it’s up to the product designer to come up with an automated, fool-proof test jig.<<   Seen that, so true.   Worthwhile read, many thanks to paul_boddie for that link00:59
Joerg-Neo900haha >>However, despite using a series-elastic spring and a foam pad to avoid over-stressing the servo motor, over time, we’ve found the motor still fails, and operators have disconnected it in favor of manually pushing the button at the right time.<< shit happens01:07
Joerg-Neo900I had used a massive solenoid01:08
Joerg-Neo900don't ever use gears when you can get along without01:09
Joerg-Neo900proper solenoid may be rated for a guaranteed 1 million cycles01:11
Joerg-Neo900a gearbox needs 20 ointments during that time01:11
Joerg-Neo900the motor itself might not even be tested for the number of on-off cycles it can do before MTBF01:15
Joerg-Neo900>>functionality of indicator LEDs and the fan are visually inspected by the operator;<< hey Bunnie, power consumption monitoring goes a long way ;-)01:25
Joerg-Neo900in case of fan, you'd guess a nifty EE might have a thermosensor near a source of heat to read out and check efficiency of fan01:27
Joerg-Neo900looking at >>That’s me about 12 years ago...<< I can't help but think I did similar thing 12 years ago when in GTA02-A8 the increased size of audio decoupling capacitors ruined the awkward serial connection to modem via audio port. It shouldn't but it was my fault to not instruct the tester software guys to disable the audio amp oputput and switch it to high impedance so the probkem would never have happened. Caused a full day of no testing01:36
Joerg-Neo900and massive panics at fab01:36
Joerg-Neo900and ^^^ this was the true reason why we had unbearable small audio decoupling until very last GTTA02 run since the chinese colleagues knew that would happen when they get larger caps but didn't think of the fix ever01:40
Joerg-Neo900hehe >> Can the 2017 badge have sex with 2015 badges? Yes.<<01:50
Joerg-Neo900>> How much worse is the range on this badge than the 2015 badge? It’s hard to say at this point, but early tests indicate it’s sufficient to have blinkysex with people within casual conversation distance, but not within shouting distance. <<01:51
Joerg-Neo900aaaaand on topic:   >> Why is the badge more expensive than 2015? The primary cost driver for the badge is the cost of the injection molded case.<<01:52
* enyc meows11:43

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