freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2018-08-07

cehteheh .. when i browse the package list then 'LXC' is empty .. does that mean LXC is not packaged or is just the information on that webpage mossing?02:18
buZzcehteh: thats a source repo, are you searching for packages?02:21
buZzthere's a browser here but not so userfriendly02:23
cehtehactually i am just checking out, i am utterly pissed by setting up a debian server and systemd constantly throws me bricks on the road, race conditions and unreliable stuff .. i just want to know if libvirt/lxc works in devuan02:23
buZzhere's the list on my workstation ;
buZzyeah totally, should work just like debian pre-systemd02:24
buZzlibvirt-dev/stable,stable-security 3.0.0-4+deb9u3 amd6402:24
cehtehbut with actual packages i presume? :)02:24
buZzyes :P02:24
cehtehok i give it a try tomorrow02:24
buZzseen the hastebin link? :)02:24
buZzalright :)02:24
cehtehi can debootstrap a devuan system as usual? anything special to note?02:29
golinuxcehteh: The package list is at pkginfo.devuan.org02:30
Xenguygolinux: That process you wanted to kill:  sometimes 'top' will bring the offening process to the top of the screen, and then you can press 'k', and confirm the process kill05:01
Xenguyor just press 'k', find the process number, and enter that05:01
XenguyIt's an alternate root from using 'ps' etc.05:02
Xenguydamn, route05:02
golinuxXenguy: Hey there.  Up for a brief chat before i head to bed?05:14
Xenguygolinux: Sure05:25
ServiceRobothowdy everyone05:35
ServiceRobotso after some experimentation, it seems to me I shouldn't bother with openrc as it doesn't even replace sysv-rc yet05:36
ServiceRobotin all honesty, what do you guys recommend. waiting for better openrc support and sticking with sysvinit, or keep hammering at it?05:42
Criggiesad - on a confused centos box at work and yum said    `ERROR: Trying to remove "systemd", which is protected`05:57
CriggieI'm sure that would cure the problems :)05:58
gnarfaceServiceRobot: i may have had sysv-rc and sysvinit-core backwards last night, just fyi.  i'm not convinced openrc isn't effectively stand-alone.  i still think you're mistaken about it relying on sysvinit and you're just confusing some sysvinit scripts that were included for compatibility with actual sysvinit.06:06
gnarfaceif you stay connected longer, you will eventually get to talk to someone who is actually running openrc on ascii and maybe they can clear it up for you better.06:07
ServiceRobotalright. I probably would have better luck using the installer but I prefer debootstrap06:08
gnarfaceand, if you take another look at the dependencies, you'll see that whatever sysv-rc is, it can be substituted for something called file-rc, which maybe is more familiar to you?06:08
gnarfacei don't know for sure, but i suspect you're making a mountain out of a mole hill06:09
ServiceRobotI tend to do that when I don't see the solution06:09
golinuxgnarface: the sysvinit scripts are still needed06:09
gnarfacegolinux: oh?  is there actually a openrc setup in some other distro where they are not though?  i thought that other guy who was using openrc chased his tail about this for days too, only to discover that it was literally nothing.06:10
golinuxI am not the one to answer that question, unfortunately.06:11
ChankuFrom what I can tell, OpenRC can replace /sbin/init with openrc-init, starting with OpenRC 0.25 (although I don't think this is default).06:16
ChankuALthough Devuan ASCII ships 0.2306:16
ServiceRobotah, so if that's the case why does devuan claim openrc is an alternative?06:17
ServiceRobotI may as well stick with the default configuration until better support is added then06:17
ChankuWell technically it runs /sbin/init which then starts openrc06:17
ServiceRobotright, but it doesn't manage services?06:18
ChankuOpenRC does06:18
ServiceRobotwell, when I debootstrapped devuan openrc status shows all services as down. they're up according to service --status-all though06:18
ServiceRobotvery strange06:18
ChankuReally you don't have to use sysvinit as init to use OpenRC in the end.06:18
ServiceRobotwell I can't remove sysvinit completely either. probably won't until later.06:19
ServiceRobotI can't find any good directions for a complete replacement, or how it would even work06:19
ChankuI've done some init experimenting06:20
Chankueven writing an entire init in Python 3 at one point :P06:20
ServiceRobotthat must have taken a lot of work06:20
ChankuEhh, not particularly06:20
ChankuIt's a very basic init.06:20
ChankuIt doesn't do process management, beyond what is necessary (It starts a process manager that it leaves that work to)06:21
ServiceRobotbut basically, all I want to know is if simply installing the openrc package from debootstrap is enough for setting it up. it doesn't seem like it is06:21
ServiceRobotI don't know what else the installer does with it06:21
ChankuI wouldn't be able to tell you, I wouldn't know.06:22
ServiceRobotwell I guess I'll keep waiting then06:22
ChankuIt's best to think of OpenRC as a 'second-stage init' if that makes any sense I guess.06:22
ServiceRobotthen what's at the first stage?06:23
Chanku/sbin/init is tasked with doing some minimal things and then starting OpenRC which does everything else.06:23
ServiceRobotah, but then what is /sbin/init06:23
ServiceRobotif it's not openrc-init (which isn't added until 0.34 I think)06:23
Chanku(Of course in OpenRC 0.25+ openrc-init can be used, which just starts openrc directly)06:23
ServiceRobotoh, it's 0.2506:23
ChankuIn any case, /sbin/init is (for the most part) SysVinit/init06:24
ServiceRobotright, but what does it currently do06:24
ServiceRobotright, so sysvinit starts up all my services along with openrc then06:24
ServiceRobotand openrc doesn't start up my services, which is what I want.06:24
ChankuI have to think it's a configuration issue.06:25
ChankuI don't really touch debootstrap or anything, so I can't entirely help you.06:25
ServiceRobotif that's the case, I don't know what it would be, or the solution06:25
ServiceRobotI suppose what I would need to do is ensure sysvinit doesn't start my services, and hand it off to openrc instead? but sysvinit has to remain there until openrc-init can replace it06:26
ServiceRobotso that's what I need to do I suppose. I'll wait for more info06:26
ChankuThat might actually help06:27
ServiceRobotI already read it06:27
ServiceRobotit doesn't answer my question06:27
ServiceRobotaccording to the wiki, "This will replace sysv-rc with OpenRC."06:28
ChankuHave you ran: " for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ; /etc/init.d/$s stop; done "?06:28
ServiceRobotbut when installing openrc sysv-rc remains. it can't be removed06:28
Chankuwait nvm I misread that >.>06:28
ServiceRobotthat's if the system is in transition. this is a fresh install06:28
ServiceRobotbut it doesn't seem like sysv-rc is replaced. in fact, both packages are installed. it's really confusing06:29
ChankuHave you rebooted?06:29
ServiceRobotyes, of course06:29
ServiceRobotit's a fresh install06:29
ChankuI am not sure how debootstrap works, to be completely honest, but perhaps act like it's a system in transition then?06:30
ServiceRobotI'm trying to do a fresh install with openrc with sys junk removed or at the very least disabled until future versions06:30
ChankuAlthough the installer would probably make things considerably easier on you06:30
ServiceRobotlet me just reread the page again. I must be missing something06:30
ServiceRobotnah, the cli is much easier and I can see exactly what's going on06:31
ChankuI...would highly disagree, as evidenced by your issues.06:31
ServiceRobotit's not really an "issue" so much as confusion due to lack of information06:31
ServiceRobotthe system does boot perfectly fine but doesn't use openrc. I think you might be right in that "for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ; /etc/init.d/$s stop; done" needs to be executed06:32
ChankuI mean, I would argue that the recommended way to install a Devuan install with OpenRC is to use the installer or transition after install.06:32
ChankuHence the lack of documentation because, it wasn't considered. :|06:33
ServiceRobotbut it should be possible to install it the first time with no transition needed06:33
ServiceRobothow can something like that not be considered for an init-freedom distro?06:33
ChankuBecause the majority of people don't use debootstrap to do a fresh install of a system.06:33
ServiceRobotthat's not what I mean. the installer would install the same packages. I can't really see what's going on under the hood to know06:34
ChankuHave you checked the forums at all? I haven't been on them recently, but someone might have already documented it there.06:35
ChankuKeep in mind I'm just a user06:35
ServiceRobotit shouldn't make a difference wether I do it from the installer or debootstrap. if I know what packages I need to include and exclude, and what to configure, it should make no difference06:35
ServiceRobotthat's what I'm trying to figure out06:35
golinuxThere have been some openrc chatter on the forum06:36
golinuxhave > has06:37
ServiceRobotya, looking there may yield better results06:38
ServiceRobotwow, I already found something06:38
ServiceRobotchoose-init may be what I need06:39
Chankuhopefully that will help out.06:39
ServiceRobotI'm gonna restart my computer a bunch to test some things out. sorry if I can't explain what I'm trying to do06:40
ServiceRobotalright, I think I have it somewhat figured out now07:13
ServiceRobotopenrc replaces sysv-rc, but sysvinit-core and sysvinit-utils are needed for /sbin/init07:13
ServiceRobotthe question is now what does init-system-helpers do then?07:17
ServiceRobotthe description on the debian website doesn't give a lot of details07:17
ServiceRobotit provides an "abstraction for enabling, disabling, starting, and stopping services", whatever that means07:18
gnarfaceServiceRobot: it's just some utility scripts07:24
gnarfaceand their respective man pages07:25
ServiceRobotya, I just read through them. at first they seemed like alternative commands for service management, but I'm not sure what it means by "abstraction"07:25
gnarfacethat's the definition of an abstraction07:26
ServiceRobotwhen I run rc-status command (openrc), no services are started, yet when I run service --status-all, their are services started07:26
ServiceRobotso it seems like it also manages services?07:26
gnarface`service cups start`07:27
gnarfaceis the same thing as07:27
gnarface`/etc/init.d/cups start`07:27
ServiceRobotthen why bother having openrc or sysv-rc if "service" does the same job?07:27
gnarfacei never saw the point of that, but it's been around since redhat07:27
gnarfaceit came from redhat at some point07:27
ServiceRobotya, I saw that too07:27
ServiceRobotbut why bother with openrc or sysv-rc if it also does the same thing?07:28
gnarfacedifferent config syntax07:28
gnarfaceit's a rearranging deck chairs07:28
ServiceRobotright, but from what I can tell it takes the place of openrc/sysv-rc. or does it use one of them?07:29
gnarfacewhat?  no, think of the init-system-helpers as just a front-end for any other init system07:32
ServiceRobotso it's a frontend to openrc then?07:32
gnarfacethings like that "service" script are just meant to provide a common interface for service management regardless of your init system choice.  they used to care about that type of shit before systemd came along.07:32
gnarfaceit's supposed to be front-end for any init system, openrc included.07:33
ServiceRobotright, I was shocked that debian even had a package like that07:33
gnarfaceand they ALL relied on "init" traditionally, before systemd came along.07:33
ServiceRobotbut how is it a "frontend". as in, if I remove openrc, it won't work independently? if that's the case it's weird that rc-status shows every service down07:34
gnarfacewhatever is up with rc-status is probably not related07:34
gnarfaceit's a "frontend" in the sense that it's a cheesy 10 line wrapper script07:35
ServiceRobotso the service command does use openrc to manage services then? I'd have to do more testing if that's the case07:35
gnarfaceit would be easier for you to figure out how it's possible for this to happen by looking at it then asking me07:35
ServiceRobotI did take a look07:35
gnarfaceit should use whatever init system you currently have installed07:36
ServiceRobotbut how does it "use it". I better look at the code more closely07:36
gnarfaceok to be fair it's 243 lines, including comments07:37
ServiceRobotya, it's hard to tell what's going on. lol07:37
gnarfacebut it is just a wrapper07:37
ServiceRobotah, I see07:37
ServiceRobot"update_openrc_started_symlinks() {07:37
ServiceRobot   # maintain the symlinks of /run/openrc/started so that07:37
ServiceRobot   # rc-status works with the service command as well"07:37
gnarfaceheh, yea that looks like you want that07:38
ServiceRobotI guess so I can easily switch between inits and keep services running normally?07:38
ServiceRobotthat's actually great. debian used to consider that?07:38
gnarfacethe package management should be able to do that for you yes.07:38
gnarfaceyea, that used to work in debian too07:38
gnarfacelately they've been throwing stuff overboard if nobody under the age of 30 can remember what it's for, but they used to preserve functionality, yes.07:39
gnarfacethey used to not have an obvious corporate agenda07:39
ServiceRobotI only started using linux at the beginning of 2016 and haven't used windows AT ALL since07:39
gnarfacehey good for you man07:39
gnarfacebetter late than never07:39
gnarfacethere's some readme files in /usr/share/doc/init-system-helpers for invoke-rc.d and policy-rc.d that look informative too07:40
gnarfaceyou might be interested in reading them over07:40
ServiceRobotya. I used Ubuntu 14.04 when I first started. about right before systemd took over everything I think07:40
ServiceRobotI did read them07:40
gnarfaceoh, i didn't.  i was just making sure you saw them.07:40
ServiceRobothmm, it claims "rc-status works with the service command as well"07:41
ServiceRobotbut rc-status shows services as down. something else must be wrong then07:41
ServiceRobotI'll figure it out. I'm glad I'm starting to see what's going on07:41
ServiceRobotin any case adding other init systems like runit should be a breeze with init-system-helpers then07:42
gnarfaceif you're doing this all from debootstrap, it might help you to just run through the installer once in expert mode, choose openrc and literally nothing else, then compare the package list with your debootstrap chroot07:42
ServiceRobotnah, I figured it out through checking dependencies07:43
gnarfacewell, in ascii the dependencies are pretty solid for the most part, but it's subject to human error07:43
ServiceRobotI'm installing it onto a usb currently07:43
gnarfacein beowulf and ceres they're far from bullet-proof07:43
ServiceRobotI think I have to change the initramfs or it won't boot on other computers but I haven't tried yet07:44
ServiceRobotwhich is why for now I plan on using sysvinit-core/sysvinit-utils/openrc until more support is added for alternatives07:45
ServiceRobotI think I can make it work07:45
gnarfacesystemd resists removal07:45
ServiceRobotya, I figured that out from using Arch. which is why I'm using Artix now. it's not perfect but it's getting there07:45
ServiceRobotI just hope Devuan works with my LEMP setup, i386 packages, and java. there's a lot I'm hoping doesn't explode07:46
ServiceRobotwhen I gave a different distro a try the jre installation wasn't reading cacerts, preventing java applications from doing TLS handshakes07:47
ServiceRobotreally freaking weird and very specific but hair-pulling as well07:48
ServiceRobotalright, signing off. might be back. might not be07:51
V-HI have an issue with devuan jessie and also with devuan ascii11:39
V-HLet me know if someone is up for the chat.  I'll be waiting.11:39
gnarfaceyou shouldn't do that on IRC11:39
gnarfacealmost nobody will ever take you up on that11:39
V-Hshould I just post in devuan forum?11:39
gnarfaceno, it's weird, but here it's actually customary to just spill your guts about the problem, then wait11:39
gnarfacedon't ask for permission or an audience first11:40
V-HOh.  So I should just list what's the problem11:40
gnarfacethere's people watching who will only come out of the woodwork if you offer specifics11:40
gnarfaceif it's a large paste, use a pastebin like paste.debian.net11:40
gnarfaceyou'll be auto-kicked if you paste more than 2 or 3 lines ... there's been a spam bot issue you see11:41
V-Hok thanks11:41
V-HI am using devuan jessie with xfce, on my system > print  settings, the add (add printer that is) button is inactive.11:43
V-HThis happened after  "» Latest devuan jessie update causing authentication problems"11:44
V-HThe package that caused the bug has been fixed and I upgraded to the package that's fixed but I still have this printer problem.11:45
V-HI think this also has to do with authentification problem as described in the thread
V-HBut I have little idea how to fix it.11:46
V-Hmaybe I should just post this on the forum on that thread?11:47
sixwheeledbeastAlso with IRC you may expect to hang around for a while until someone can help. I would say adding to the thread on the forum is a good idea.11:49
fishfearswhy is a dsa key the signing key11:58
gnarfaceV-H: if it's just a polkit problem you can probably add your printer as root, or maybe by connecting to localhost:631 with a browser12:05
gnarfacewhich wouldn't really be a fix but it might be a useful workaround12:05
V-HI think I am gonna post this problem to the forum12:10
Digitdoes nvidia-installer-cleanup normally act like it's hung?  both through apt-get upgrade and dpkg -a now it seems stuck.  i answered its run nvidia-xconfig --restore-original-backup question with no both times (previous just hit enter because it' default, entered N this time, same doing-nothing appearance.)14:51
Digitdpkg --configure -a *14:52
Digitah, f9'd it in htop, n dpkg springs back into life.14:56
Digitn_n cute.  now that it's done, the "N" and other things i tried get command not found'd.14:57
cehteh  .. links on that page are broken17:21
cehteh  mean that page17:22
golinuxcehteh: I thought you understood that is an obsolete link.  Please use pkginfo.devuan.org17:28
cehtehyeah, i manage, just wanted to point out that those has to be either fixed or decommisioned17:29
cehtehi mean leaving old/broken links isnt really nice, esp since google puts those results foremost17:29
golinuxcehteh: I don't know how you got to there because the root of that page says this:
cehtehgolinux: google "devuan debootstrap" then you end up on defunct pages17:47
cehteh"devuan <packagename>" already i tihnk (havent tried much)17:47
cehtehblame google, but still those old pages could send a redirect or be taken off17:48
cehtehi am just playing devils advocate here, telling what someone who is new stumbles upon17:49
buZzwho is the new stumbleupon?17:53
buZzoh, sorry, misunderstood17:53
buZzbut i agree, is 100% unfindable17:54
buZzif you dont know the url already17:54
golinuxbuZz: It is on many pages of    It doesn't blink in neon though.17:59
buZzits unfindable if you google 'devuan package list' or something17:59
buZzwhere on the frontpage of is it?17:59
buZzam i just blind?18:00
golinuxHere are three pages:
golinuxThose are the logical places, no?18:15
cehtehits not about you tellin me the pages here on irc, its about the impression someone who searches for info about devuan/packages (with google) gets18:16
cehtehof course for someone involved in the project the pages and logical structure is clear and he knows where to look18:17
cehtehbut try to think you dont know anything about the project and try to gather some infos18:17
buZzgolinux: logical would be frontpage , i agree18:21
golinuxAs you said, it needs a redirect.  Will try to get that done in the next day or so18:21
golinuxbuZz: Not really.  All the download and install info in on the download page.18:22
buZzwhat would you download from pkginfo?18:22
buZzor install from it?18:22
buZznothing, right? its just reference18:23
Ryccardodirect download links for packages, no? (though I personally wouldn´t search for them in the same section as full OS downloads)18:23
buZzthere are no download links in pkginfo18:24
Ryccardothat´s the bigger problem, then :P18:27
buZzRyccardo: its not ment as a download page18:48
buZzwhy would you need to download packages by hand anyway , you could just download them with apt18:48
buZzimho -should-18:49
Ryccardoto be able to download on that computer without wifi firmware :)18:52
Ryccardonot that there isn´t an alternative, but why not18:52
* cehteh just downloaded the debootstap.dpkg and installed it on a debian based rescue system 18:52
cehtehwhats another way to install devuan to a remote server?18:54
Ryccardointel amt disk emulation? :P18:55
cehtehi was thinking about failing one disk on the raid, copy the installation media there and then install from that, but debootstrap sounds easier19:00
mbufWhat is the image I can use for Veyron/Rockchip Chromebook? I don't see it listed at
golinuxmbuf: You might want to ask on #devuan-arm19:12
mbufgolinux, found it at
mbufgolinux, thanks!19:13
golinuxThere should be one for ASCII too19:14
m3lst4dgolinux, is there a great need for packagers?  Is it basically like backporting, but just removing systemd?  I've done quite a bit of backporting in the past, but I see you have your own method which doesn't seem to difficult to learn.  Thanks!20:24

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