freenode/#devuan/ Sunday, 2019-08-25

agrisWhat will Devuan do with Regards to XFCE 4.14?01:57
agriswhich makes gtk3 mandatory and hides functionality behind hamburger menus01:58
agrisand looks like a phone app rather than a computer program01:58
agriswill Devuan merge this into stable?01:58
agrisor is there another option01:58
Jjp137ugh as an Xfce user, I'm not looking forward to that...02:03
fsmithredwhat does debian plan to do with it? With the exception of a couple packages, xfce comes from them02:03
golinuxascii will be good for another few years.02:10
agrisfsmithred, Debian doesn't care at all, the are GNOME3 now02:13
fsmithred4.12 is still in sid/ceres02:15
agrisbut for how long02:15
fsmithredprobably need to follow debian mailing lists for find out02:16
fsmithredsomeone could step up and compile all of it for gtk2, I guess, but who's gonna maintain gtk2?02:16
Witedsi am curious about somthing i installed beowulf so that i could comiple mesa but i can't seem to get libuuid1:i386 to install on a multi arch setup along side libuuid1:amd64 but in the past there was no issue with this and on other distros as well02:17
agrisgtk2 is already maintained as far as I'm aware02:17
agrisstill see git commits on that branch for bugfixes every now and then02:17
agrisbut as I see it, gtk2 is largely complete02:17
agrisas in finished and mature02:17
fsmithredWiteds, I think there's a problem with some packages that don't have the same version in i386 and amd6402:18
fsmithredyou might be running into that02:18
Witedsits been trying to overwrite the entire 64bit install02:19
fsmithredthat sounds familiar. I don't know if there's a way around it.02:20
Witedsok thanks02:21
agrisfsmithred, why did you think gtk2 wasn't maintained?02:22
fsmithredI'm predicting the future. It's based on the fact that I saw the word, gtk4, printed somewhere on the internet.02:23
fsmithredIf our default desktop turns into phone trash in the future, we'll probably adopt a different default.02:25
fsmithredgot lots of time before we worry about that02:25
agrisfsmithred, gnome is already working on gtk502:29
agrisAs I understand it gtk+2 is the gimp toolkit02:29
agrisgeneral purpose toolkit02:29
fsmithredyeah, I always thought it meant gimp tool kit02:29
agrisgtk+3 and up and the GNOME toolkit, that only target Gnome's usecases and needs without regard to anyone else02:29
fsmithrednot really relevant in this channel02:30
agrisif you read the messages from gnome developers on the Deluge-gtk mailing list it will reinforce that this is their way of thinking02:30
fsmithredwe know02:30
fsmithredand we don't think that way02:30
agrisI'm worried about the future02:38
agrisI don't to have to load a big third party repo of my own and have to to all this work myself if things were to hit the fan02:40
gnarfacebut having that big repo is exactly how you would deal with it if shit did hit the fan02:49
agriswell in that case02:56
agrisshit already hit the fan in Gentoo because that's what i'm doing right now02:56
agristhe thing about choosing a distro is that having the least amount of things that need to be changed to make it usable for your goals03:07
agrisI guess that's what you people are doing03:08
agrisDevuan being a 'big repo' that undoes systemd, but still debian03:08
fsmithredour repo is actually pretty small03:09
agrisIt's hard. I want to develop Devuan but I hate what's left of the Debian community03:09
agrisor at least the loudest part of it03:09
gnarfaceagris: there's people out there actively peddling malicious misinformation.  try not to inadvertently become one of them.03:15
agriswhat do you mean by that gnarface ?03:16
gnarfacei mean that a lot of the stuff you claim to be worried about makes you sound like a troll03:16
gnarfaceso, either you are a troll, or someone put a lot of really bad ideas in your head03:17
gnarfaceand it's been going around03:18
agriswell I don't know how you could come to that conclusion. I am genuinely worried about gtk+03:18
gnarfacebut the same software you have installed that currently works with gtk2 will keep working with gtk2 forever as long as you never update it03:19
gnarfaceand there are scenarios where that is okay03:19
gnarfaceand even if i'm wrong, it'll be years before it matters still03:20
agrisThat's not entirely true. the dependencies of that software break or programming language functions become deprecated03:20
gnarfacesure, but probably not for what most people are doing03:20
gnarfacenot for decades anyway03:21
gnarfaceif you want to keep installing new software and updating to the latest version of stuff, of course that changes things03:21
agrisIf it was that easy I wouldn't be nearly as distraught. working with C or C++ (well maybe not soo much C) I experience this problem quite a bit03:21
agrisprograms in Python on the other hand03:21
gnarfacebut you have to be able to rationally evaluate the need to update your shit compulsively03:21
agrisa lot easier to maintain03:21
gnarfacedon't succumb to shiny new shit syndrome03:21
gnarfacekeep backups03:22
gnarfacekeep spare parts03:22
gnarfaceand if you need to be on the bleeding edge of everything and xfce won't do what you want03:22
gnarface... consider a new WM03:22
gnarfacethere are tons of them03:22
gnarfaceyou don't have to be married to the defaults of everything03:23
gnarfacethat's a very windows-centric viewpoint03:23
gnarfacethe panic itself... that's just spinning your wheels, really03:24
agrisyou know I guess your right. A lot of my problems are Gentoo problems. I've become afraid to invest into a platform because every other portage sync I have do a whole bunch of work to go through git and restore ebuilds, blacklist new library updates, and at this point probably have 40% of my userspace coming from my own repo03:33
gnarfaceheh, yea that sounds like why i stopped trying to get work done with gentoo, too03:34
agrisI don't have these problems nearly as often on my Devuan laptops and servers03:34
agrisand the only things I really want that are new are ZFS 8 (for SSD trim support) and a custom kernel config tuned for realtime so things feel snappy. and I'm planning to toss my nvidia 1070 due to constant proprietary driver issues anyways03:36
JohnDoe2well yes it's a really bad idea (regex)03:37
JohnDoe2my bad, wrong channel03:38
agrisI can certainly keep around programs like Twinkle software and patch it as needed for a 3-6 year Debian LTS support model03:38
agrismate-system-monitor 1.12.203:40
agrismumble patches for jack support03:40
agrisgnarface, thank you for helping me figure out the issues I was having with building backports earlier03:47
gnarfaceno problem agris03:48
agrisbtw that issue I was having with the mirrors, it wasn't peering issues (well it was a little bit but that wasn't the main cause). It was a $250 broadcom based access point. For some reason it was mangling TCP packets like crazy causing Linux's TCP congestion control to throw a fit. Tried updating firmware no difference. Ended up replacing it with a 8 year old $50 Atheros based access point running OpenWRT. problems solved03:52
agrisin fact wireless clients are now 30 megabits faster on average03:53
gnarfacei wonder if it might have been a MTU mismatch03:53
gnarfacei had a lag issue with my nintendo because the new ones default to 1400 stock, but my whole network is set at 1500 (default afaik)03:54
agrisyeah, that was a really obscure issue. No, It wasn't MTU mismatch. the whole network supported 1500byte packets. I tested that and it wasn't fragmentation.03:54
gnarfacewell broadcom stuff has been sucky for me in general03:54
gnarfaceso i believe it might have had unresolved bugs03:54
agrisIt was duplicate TCP ACKS and TCP Retransmissions03:55
gnarfacesounds hacked honestly03:55
gnarfacebut you said flashing firmware didn't fix it?03:55
agrisand it only occured with TCP connections that had higher than ~90ms latency03:55
agristhat's why I couldn't reproduce it with iperf3 on the lan03:56
agrisand most websites were not effected03:56
agriswell 90+ms and 15-20ms03:56
agrisI don't know why those specific ranges triggered that but that's what I found. And It's not like it was doing any routing or filtering. It was setup as a dumbap. and yeah, installin latest firmware did not fix it03:58
se7enI have kind of a strange question. How does one set their mailspool by enviornment?04:51
se7enI think I may have upset that04:51
se7enIt's just $MAIL, right?04:53
agrisse7en, It's usually defined by the FHS in /var/mail/<username>/ (legacy location is /var/spool/mail/<username>/ or ~/Maildir04:56
agrisHow big is the Devuan repositories?04:56
agris(not including Debian)04:56
se7enI have my mail in /var/spool/mail/se7en, and have been trying to fix fetchmail04:57
se7enFetchmail's default expected behavior is to write to the spool04:58
se7enIt doesn't04:58
se7enIt tries to send it to port 25 on the localhost04:58
se7enThen, if I add procmail as an mda, I get a broken pipe04:58
agrisse7en, I do not know about procmail, so you'll probably have to wait a bit longer for someone else to answer BUT if your not set on pracmail and need a mda/mta I highly recommend OpenSMTPd. It is massively simpler to configure, provides sendmail-like userspace tools, and supports both mbox and maildir. a basic secure configuration can be done in 5 lines05:01
se7enAll I want to do is fix fetchmail05:04
se7enIt just fails for unknown reasons05:04
agrisaccept for local alias <aliases> deliver to mbox05:04
se7enAnd it's fuly setup otherwise05:04
gnarfacese7en: you sure it's not just permissions?05:06
se7enIt may be05:09
onefangagris: The Devuan (without Debian) ISO mirror is 38GB, the package mirror is 41 GB.  Or my copies are.05:09
se7en[20:10 root@lappy se7en] > ls -l /var/spool/mail/*05:10
se7en-rw-r--r-- 1 root  mail 0 Aug 24 18:10 /var/spool/mail/root05:10
se7en-rw-rw---- 1 se7en mail 0 Aug 24 18:35 /var/spool/mail/se7en05:10
gnarfaceonefang: is that just amd64 though?05:13
onefangThat's one of the official mirrors.05:13
gnarfacese7en: how about errors logs for mail in /var/log?05:13
gnarfaceyou might just want to consider letting it deliver to localhost:2505:15
gnarfacei think that's considered completely normal05:18
se7enIt'll take more work and this used to just werk before my upgrae to ascii05:20
gnarfaceyea i wonder what went wrong, but i don't use it, i use exim4 and it works fine for me05:20
gnarfacei note that it does not deliver mail to root though05:21
se7enI don't thnk I used procmail before wither05:21
gnarfaceyour spool05:21
gnarfaceyou have a root spool05:21
gnarfaceand it's only writeable by root05:21
gnarfaceso... that would mean your mail daemon would have to be running as root05:21
gnarfaceor it couldn't write to it05:22
gnarfacedid you check to see if mail is undeliverable to /var/spool/mail/se7en too, or did you only check mail to root?05:22
se7enI'm checking my local user's mail05:26
se7enlines 1-16sh: 1: /usr/bin/procmail: Operation not permitted05:26
se7enfetchmail: Error writing to MDA: Broken pipe05:26
gnarfaceoperation not permitted?05:27
gnarfacethis isn't gonna turn out to be some problem because you have busybox installed instead of bash, is it?05:27
se7enI do not have busybox05:27
se7enThe problem seems to be because I am torifying it05:28
gnarfacecan you find out what pipe it was trying to write to?05:28
se7enit is a .onion email IMAP05:28
se7enI don't know how to find that out, gnarface. I am reading logs05:29
se7enIt's not outputting to where I set it to output05:30
se7enset logfile /home/se7en/.fetchmail.log05:30
se7enIt seems05:31
se7enthat fetchmail is completly failing to call procmail period05:31
se7enProcmail doesn't seem to be active at all05:31
agrisdo Devuan package mirrors need to be on a dedicated IP?05:31
se7enI'm going to try something unorthadox05:32
se7enchown root:mail /usr/bin/procmail05:32
se7enchmod -v 2755 /usr/bin/procmail05:33
se7enYeah, that fixed it05:33
se7enSo fundementally05:33
se7enThe problem was with how torsocks handles setuid05:33
onefangOn my mirror I have several domains on the one IP, not all of them related to Devuan.05:33
_abc_Hi. Anyone using LADSPA plugin for auto level/compression/limiting volume with ascii or next devuan? I got rid of pulseaudio, using plain alsa now. I am willing to try the solutions shown in the link:10:54
_abc_Anyone else tried this? The goal is automatic audio level control, mainly due to youtube volume jumps between clips which are crazy (20dB seen)10:54
_abc_I guess asking these questions makes more sense in the evening (US TZ) when people are here hopefully.10:56
devuHello, i have problem with xfce4-terminal.It simply does not dispaly the output of w,who and users command.Any idea what is wrong?thanks21:18
furrywolfit would be odd if a terminal program only broke the output of those commands.  I'd suspect either broken/mismatched packages, or (much less likely) a rootkit.  but, I don't know how to easily troubleshoot that.21:20
devufurrywolf:it works in Xterm and Uxterm but xfce-terminal and mate-terminal nothing21:32
furrywolfthat's odd.  could be a path issue or something weird.21:33
furrywolfit works in xfce4-terminal here21:33
furrywolfdoes which w show /usr/bin/w in both terminals?21:33
furrywolfxfce4-terminal doesn't seem to start a login shell, while xterm does.21:34
furrywolfso if the environment was broken when x started, xfce4-terminal would be using that broken environment, while xterm would log in again.21:35
furrywolfhave you done any major upgrades since last time you rebooted?21:35
furrywolfI need to go load up my a/c service stuff and fix someone's car, so hopefully someone who knows more about this can help you...  bbl.21:36
devufurrywolf:thanks anyway21:40
telmichgood evening! I remember the nice atmosphere at the conferenece in Amsterdam. If anyone of you is interested in continuing the hacking atmosphere in Switzerland, we have just opened a hacking hotel and welcome similar minded people:
andy5995how do you  use the experimental suite? Just do a regular install and then change all the instances  of "ascii" to  "experimental" in sources.list?22:39
fsmithredyikes, no22:39
fsmithredadd a line for experimental22:39
fsmithredanything you want to install from it, add '-t experimental' to the command22:39
fsmithredthere are only a few packages in experimental22:40
andy5995ok.. I should be able to handle that fsmithred .. thanks!22:40

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